Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

[Hans]

As soon as you can assert that the Z-film was completely modified and (therefore) has no resemblance to reality, you can pretty much assert anything.

Yeah like the one where it's Jackie doing the shooting with a derringer at close range.....

 

[pgwenthold]

Yeah like the one where it's Jackie doing the shooting with a derringer at close range.....

That's not the half of it. After shooting him, she stood in the car, did a strip tease and then smeared his blood all over her body while laughing maniacally.

 

[Nakani]

Your claim, your burden of proof. Everyone near Hickey, including Hickey, testified under oath that no weapon was discharged from that car. If your claim is that they were lying then you need to prove they were lying -- not just suggest they might be.

The AR-15 round through JFK's head is proof enough for me.

First, "negligent discharge" is something people are specifically trained to avoid if they must use firearms as part of their jobs. It starts with ingrained practices as simple as keeping the safety on and your finger on the trigger guard until you've actually sighted the target. These moves are practiced until they are second nature. Hence for me it's immediately non-credible to suppose that a USSS agent on Presidential protective duty is going to have such poor firearm skills.

No person is perfect, the notion that the 60's USSS were an elite group of infallible super soldiers is romantic but probably not accurate.

Second, the "smell of gunpowder" argument has been addressed here at length. Modern propellant, fired in an open area, doesn't leave an odor. But it's commonly believed among layman that it does, hence authors take advantage of it. What does, however, make an odor is the exhaust from big heavy cars with big engines that are suddenly gunned in order to make a quick getaway.

modern propellant is smoke less not odor less. I'll give you this one though, if I remember correctly it was a woman in the car behind the agent's car who said she smelled gunpowder(not 100% reliable).

Third, HP ammunition was not a thing for the AR-15

If Hickey is the kind of guy that brings his own AR -15 to work, he is probably a bit of a gun nut. It's a good bet he might have modified bullets. A lot of gun&ammo aficionados load their own shells. Even something as simple as cutting an X in the tip of the bullet ( something I have seen people do) will cause it to fragment.

Fourth, the trajectory "analysis" based on Donahue's concept of the head wound is comically presumptive, and provides no error analysis. This is important in science, but layman wouldn't know to look for it or care about it.

Just by looking at the entry and exit wounds, it's easy to tell the shot came from street level.

Fifth, Donahue simply lies blatantly that the long, round-nosed bullets that were the original Carcano ammo don't leave fragments. They do, in skulls, and such was demonstrated. But he ignores this because his hypothesis needs the head shot not to have come from the Carcano. This leads into...

Why does the bullet that went through a neck, a seat, a rib, and a wrist not fragment as much as the bullet that only went through the back of JFK's head? Also why did someone feel the need to place a bullet on JFK's stretcher?

Sixth, the uncontested cavitation in the President's head wound is a characteristic effect of long, narrow, heavy rounds that exhibit minimal fragmentation. A high degree of fragmentation does not result in cavitation.

As a hunter, I have seen a lot of exit wounds made by a variety of guns and ammunition. Fragmentation causes a large exit wound.

By the way, I apologize to you for being somewhat deliberately obtuse about the photograph and the rifle. That was unfair of me. I simply wanted you to present your case and not make us guess at it.

I see.

 

[JayUtah]

The AR-15 round through JFK's head is proof enough for me.

Circular argument. You have no answer for the evidence that disputes your belief.

No person is perfect...

Trigger and safety-catch management is basic. Your belief requires a highly-trained weapons handler to be extraordinarily careless. Maybe this is one of the reasons Hickey sued the author of the book whose statements you have swallowed hook-line-and-sinker.

If Hickey is the kind of guy that brings his own AR -15 to work, he is probably a bit of a gun nut.

It was the Secret Service's weapon, one of the last Colt AR-15 601s made, and was actually retained by the service for many years after the assassination. No, an agent on Presidential protective detail is not going to use handloads. My cousin has been a USSS protective agent for more than 10 years. They don't want gun nuts, they want gun experts.

Just by looking at the entry and exit wounds...

Donahue pretends he can identify the exit wound, and sidesteps the fact that the Zapruder film shows Kennedy's head significantly bowed forward at the moment of the head shot.

Why does the bullet that went through a neck, a seat, a rib, and a wrist not fragment as much as the bullet that only went through the back of JFK's head?

Because it hit less bone.

Also why did someone feel the need to place a bullet on JFK's stretcher?

Assumes facts not in evidence.

As a hunter, I have seen a lot of exit wounds made by a variety of guns and ammunition. Fragmentation causes a large exit wound.

The whole point of fragmentation is not to have an exit wound, but rather to ensure that all the projectile's kinetic energy is expended in the target. Try again.

Also, please do us the courtesy of reading at least some of the thread in which you are participating. You may read and post here only occasionally, but the rest of us have been posting here for two or three years and have covered such topics as fragmentation and cavitation in great depth several times. See the 'III' in the thread title? That means it's the third thread split off by the moderators because it has gone on so long.

 

[BStrong]

The AR-15 round through JFK's head is proof enough for me.



No person is perfect, the notion that the 60's USSS were an elite group of infallible super soldiers is romantic but probably not accurate.



modern propellant is smoke less not odor less. I'll give you this one though, if I remember correctly it was a woman in the car behind the agent's car who said she smelled gunpowder(not 100% reliable).



If Hickey is the kind of guy that brings his own AR -15 to work, he is probably a bit of a gun nut. It's a good bet he might have modified bullets. A lot of gun&ammo aficionados load their own shells. Even something as simple as cutting an X in the tip of the bullet ( something I have seen people do) will cause it to fragment.



Just by looking at the entry and exit wounds, it's easy to tell the shot came from street level.



Why does the bullet that went through a neck, a seat, a rib, and a wrist not fragment as much as the bullet that only went through the back of JFK's head? Also why did someone feel the need to place a bullet on JFK's stretcher?



As a hunter, I have seen a lot of exit wounds made by a variety of guns and ammunition. Fragmentation causes a large exit wound.



I see.

1. Assuming facts not in evidence, Donahue worked backwards from incredulity, he did not have access to anything that we don't have access to as after-the-fact hobbyists. Nobody, not the original physicians involved, not Dr. Martin Fackler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Fackler

Agree with Donahue's assertion - the head wound was consistent with a FMJ 6.5 projo at typical MV.

2. Nobody asserted the SS was an elite group of solders, and they didn't need to be. They were/are professional bodyguards and the assertion that they'd have the ability to cover up a fatal ND on POTUS isn't even reality based - and to address another one of your fantasy points, nobody in professional LE, then or now at the fed or major muni level was allowed to to freelance on duty weapons or ammo, and no, whatever fantasy world you have cooked up doesn't provide a reality based "what-if" on the deal. My father was his departments chief firearms instructor and his older brother was an FBI SA - complaint #1 from both was the restrictions on duty weapons - no 1911's, no auto's of any type, no magnum wheelguns - no excuses. Flat out automatic termination for unauthorized weapons or ammo. It was no different when I was in. There is -0- chance that the SS agent in question was carrying an unauthorized weapon or unauthorized ammo. Some rookie in Bugtussle might decide to freelance, but FBI, SS and Treasury agents of the day didn't get on with their agency because they were stupid.

My uncle, who had a hell of a lot of experience with the Corps from the late 30's through the Pacific and Korea before he retired swore by a 1911, and swore at the Colt .38 special wheelgun that was the then issue duty weapon used by the FBI. I asked him then why he didn't just carry a 1911 (I was a kid, what did I know?) and he gave me the malocchio - it didn't matter what he thought or what he wanted to carry. He didn't make the rules, he just had to follow them, just like he did in the Corps.

3. Read back in the thread and there has been a discussion of the "I smelled gunpowder!" nugget. Short version, outdoors single shot, damn little chance any human is going to be able to suss out the smell of gunpowder from any other burnt nitrate. Indoor, multiple shooters, no ventilation Ok - outdoor, Company level mad minute Ok, outdoors, single round fired, no go.

4. Tell that to a physician, preferably a pathologist.

5. You answered your own question - the round didn't impact a skull in transit. Ribs don't exactly simulate the resistance of a skull, pelvis or femur.

6. I've hunted a bunch, and seen some other things, and fragmentation is not what causes large exit wounds in animals or humans, as a matter of fact the whole point of pre-fragmented defensive ammo is that it won't exit, and fragmentation is the last thing you want in a hunting round due to meat spoilage.

What causes large exit wounds outside of HE grenade or RPG rounds is a projo at sufficient velocity to cause cavitation while in transit through the target that exits that target. Fragmentation can increase the lethality of a given projo type, but it does not in any way increase exit wound dimensions. Case in point is the type of exit wounds caused by large caliber FMJ rounds 8mm and above, and can be clearly seen in GSW from the standard .50 BMG ball rounds. The round barely deforms in most any soft target even when it strikes the skull, pelvis or femur and with the BMG round you see massive exit wounds all the way out to 1K yds on soft targets.

 

[Nakani]

Ok then, has anyone discounted the possibility that lizard men implanted a mini nuke in the President's head?

 

[JayUtah]

Ok then, has anyone discounted the possibility that lizard men implanted a mini nuke in the President's head?

I honestly don't think that one has been suggested yet.

 

[Hans]

Ok then, has anyone discounted the possibility that lizard men implanted a mini nuke in the President's head?

Why yes we did I asked the can of Hormel Chili (no beans) I keep on my desk which by the way contains the soul of a 30,000 year old Atlantean. He says no to that idea.

 

[Nakani]

I honestly don't think that one has been suggested yet.

Ha ha, made you smile.

Thanks Jay and BStrong for the input. I just thought I'd see what everyone thought about the accidental discharge theory. That's all for me, I don't know enough about the subject to properly make a stand one way or the other.

And now back to your regularly scheduled thread...

 

[JayUtah]

Ha ha, made you smile.

Thanks for being good-natured and entertaining!

Thanks Jay and BStrong for the input.

No problem. Stop by anytime.

 

[turingtest]

Greer (the driver) doing the shooting always made me go "what?".
I think that was one of Bill Coopers ones...

Also, here, the immortal 7forever.

 

[Kirbztomp]

Well, here's a screwy one for you:


Apparently Connally ("the dude") was the intended target. Of course, this is coming from a guy who thinks John Wilkes Booth was Lincoln's son, and was trying to save him at Ford's Theater, only to be unjustly framed for the assassination.

Well sure, why not? My whole contention since joining this forum is based in misinterpretation. I like Cracked's article from today to represent this.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18787_6-books-everyone-including-your-english-teacher-got-wrong.html

 

[HSienzant]

That sounds dumber than the BS JFK nuts have. Why is the agent not in the car?

Who smelled smoke at ground level?

Show the picture of the agent standing up in the car... BTW, there is no agent in the car... until after the fatal shot.

The agent is in the Secret Service follow-up car.
His name is Hickey.
http://media.philly.com/images/jfk-hickey-with-rifle.jpg

He raised his AR-15 in Dealey Plaza.
That was reported by at least one witness.
://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hollan1.htm

He reached a settlement in his lawsuit against the publisher.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_Error

My understanding is the AR-15 was government issued. Sorry, no cite at present.

Here's an article on the video referenced by the original poster.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/S...t_Service_agent_killed_President_Kennedy.html

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

The link to Sam Holland's 11/22/63 Sheriff's Office statement doesn't work in the post above.
But he said, in that statement, "After the first shot the secret service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped back down in the seat."
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hollan1.htm

He saw Hickey raise the gun in Dealey Plaza.

Jean Hill also referenced a fleeting impression that the agents were shooting back on the day of the assassination.

" I thought I saw some men in plain clothes shooting back ..."
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hillj.htm

The photo of Hickey with the AR-15 linked in the post above is from shortly after the assassination, on the race to Parkland Hospital. Someone suggested it was from another day. That is incorrect.

I don't consider the Donahue theory as far-out as any conspiracy theory you can name. I don't know enough about guns to reject it on that basis, but otherwise, there is some (however scant) eyewitness statements that appear to support it.

I would say it's the second most reasonable, but a distant second behind the "Oswald did it, alone and unaided" argument.

Hank

 

[BazBear]

The link to Sam Holland's 11/22/63 Sheriff's Office statement doesn't work in the post above.
But he said, in that statement, "After the first shot the secret service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped back down in the seat."
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hollan1.htm

He saw Hickey raise the gun in Dealey Plaza.

Jean Hill also referenced a fleeting impression that the agents were shooting back on the day of the assassination.

" I thought I saw some men in plain clothes shooting back ..."
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hillj.htm

The photo of Hickey with the AR-15 linked in the post above is from shortly after the assassination, on the race to Parkland Hospital. Someone suggested it was from another day. That is incorrect.

I don't consider the Donahue theory as far-out as any conspiracy theory you can name. I don't know enough about guns to reject it on that basis, but otherwise, there is some (however scant) eyewitness statements that appear to support it.

I would say it's the second most reasonable, but a distant second behind the "Oswald did it, alone and unaided" argument.

Hank

While he may well have pulled the gun out while still in Dealey Plaza, I find it hard to believe the other six (iirc) people in the car didn't notice an assault rifle going off a couple or few feet from their ears. That said, I will agree it's more plausible than any of the usual JFK assassination theories I've heard proposed.

 

[pgwenthold]

Jean Hill also referenced a fleeting impression that the agents were shooting back on the day of the assassination.

Boy, Jean Hill is a favorite of the conspiracy folks, isn't she? While her later testimony is clearly nonsense, even her day of testimony can't be trusted, can it?

I realize she admits that it was all a blur and these are impressions, but I wouldn't put any stock in anything she said unless it can be independently verified.

 

[JayUtah]

My understanding is the AR-15 was government issued. Sorry, no cite at present.

It was government issued. It was a 1962 or 1963 Colt 601, one of the last Colts made, as I understand. The USSS had it in their armory for several years after the assassination. There is a lingering question whether it was approved for protective details at the time (as opposed to interdictions or raids), but no one seems to have given Hickey any flak for having carried it. Hence I consider that at least tacit approval.

 

[HSienzant]

Boy, Jean Hill is a favorite of the conspiracy folks, isn't she? While her later testimony is clearly nonsense, even her day of testimony can't be trusted, can it?

I realize she admits that it was all a blur and these are impressions, but I wouldn't put any stock in anything she said unless it can be independently verified.

She is a favorite of the conspirati, yes.

Her original statements - both the on-air variety and the Sheriff's Office one cited above - are almost all defensible, however. She may have seen the AR-15 in Hickey's hands and gotten the impression from that alone the agents were firing back:

---- quote ----
I thought I saw some men in plain clothes shooting back but everything was such a blur and Mary was pulling on my leg saying "Get down thery [sic] are shooting".
---- unquote ----

Note she says she thought she *saw* this, not heard it. She did say initially she heard more than three shots, however.

Just to clarify, I'm not trying to make a case for the Hickey shot. I'm trying to illustrate how a case can be made for almost any argument one wishes to advance by selecting judiciously from the eyewitness statements.

Hank

 

[Hans]

She is a favorite of the conspirati, yes.

Her original statements - both the on-air variety and the Sheriff's Office one cited above - are almost all defensible, however. She may have seen the AR-15 in Hickey's hands and gotten the impression from that alone the agents were firing back:

---- quote ----
I thought I saw some men in plain clothes shooting back but everything was such a blur and Mary was pulling on my leg saying "Get down thery [sic] are shooting".
---- unquote ----

Note she says she thought she *saw* this, not heard it. She did say initially she heard more than three shots, however.

Just to clarify, I'm not trying to make a case for the Hickey shot. I'm trying to illustrate how a case can be made for almost any argument one wishes to advance by selecting judiciously from the eyewitness statements.

Hank

Last year I had an unexpected reunion with two fellows I had known and worked with in Honduras back in '86. At that time a few bullets were flying around at the Nicaragua border. A certain incident occurred and what we found of interest was that each of us had very different ideas of what had happened even being within arms reach of each other during the entire time. We had never talked about it and when we did I held three rounds had been fired one going near me, another held that there had been gunfire for five minutes and the other thought that we had heard a distant exchange of fire. Ah memory!!

 

[BStrong]

Last year I had an unexpected reunion with two fellows I had known and worked with in Honduras back in '86. At that time a few bullets were flying around at the Nicaragua border. A certain incident occurred and what we found of interest was that each of us had very different ideas of what had happened even being within arms reach of each other during the entire time. We had never talked about it and when we did I held three rounds had been fired one going near me, another held that there had been gunfire for five minutes and the other thought that we had heard a distant exchange of fire. Ah memory!!

CMA ?