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Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

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I don't know how to post a picture sorry, you'll have to look it up yourself.

Link to it then.

The rifle was a AR-15.

Not a part of the USSS approved arsenal in 1963, although at that time they may still have allowed personal-discretion weapons.

Further, I went into some detail several pages back about how the type of ammunition for the AR-15 would not have produced the cavitation effects seen.

Why do you say woo?

Because it's a proposition not based on evidence, but based on conjecture following someone's declaration that the convention story is somehow impossible.
 
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I had a look at Google. Nothing interesting there. A picture taken on a different day doesn't really mean anything anyway, does it?
 
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snipped...

Why do you say woo?

Because Donahue didn't even use bad science in his theory.He started with incredulity and came up with a story that fit his theory, science or facts be damned.

The idea that the SS would kill POTUS in a negligent discharge incident and cover it up is (to me) the screwiest explanation that anyone's come up with.

PS -IIRC Donahue also has the AR loaded w/ hollow points or some other frangible ammo type, something that wasn't available in '63.
 
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Ha. Type "JFK assassination agent standing in car" into your google, then switch to images and it's the sixth and twelfth picture(On my phone).

That's the best I can do for now.

Well yes, I'm familiar with Hickey's unapproved AR-15. (The USSS had them in 1963 for training and familiarization but they weren't approved for protective details.) The problem is that when you only vaguely refer to claims and evidence, we can't know what you saw. We can only know what we see and know. If we pin it on you, and it's the wrong thing, you can legitimately cry foul.

I'm also familiar with Hickey's testimony, and with the testimony of the various witnesses in the car, which Donahue simply ignores. It's more fun for him to accuse Hickey of negligence or incompetence, and involuntary manslaughter, with absolutely no evidence of it.

The "ballistics expert" Donahue also goes on to say the Carcano's ammunition wouldn't result in fragmentation -- again denying experimental and documentary evidence to the contrary. And as I've already mentioned and written about extensively earlier, the type of ammunition Donahue says was used wouldn't cause the visible cavitation effect. That is paradoxically caused by a long, heavy missile such as the Carcano ammo.
 
PS -IIRC Donahue also has the AR loaded w/ hollow points or some other frangible ammo type, something that wasn't available in '63.

To be clear, frangible and hollow-point rounds have been around since rounds stopped being round. But the 7.62 caliber is primarily a military round, and hollow-point rounds have been disallowed in warfare since the Hague Convention. Hence, for that particular weapon you're not going to find many HP rounds, just FMJ rounds. There's no incentive to make them in that caliber.

That doesn't save Donahue's pitiful attempt at inferring what kind of round "must" have been used by free-associative conjecture on the bullet fragments.
 
I had a look at Google. Nothing interesting there. A picture taken on a different day doesn't really mean anything anyway, does it?

Something tells me not to argue with you.

Because Donahue didn't even use bad science in his theory.He started with incredulity and came up with a story that fit his theory, science or facts be damned.

The idea that the SS would kill POTUS in a negligent discharge incident and cover it up is (to me) the screwiest explanation that anyone's come up with..

The screwiest? Really? I'm sure if I read this thread I could find a screwier.

Well yes, I'm familiar with Hickey's unapproved AR-15. (The USSS had them in 1963 for training and familiarization but they weren't approved for protective details.) The problem is that when you only vaguely refer to claims and evidence, we can't know what you saw. We can only know what we see and know. If we pin it on you, and it's the wrong thing, you can legitimately cry foul.

I'm also familiar with Hickey's testimony, and with the testimony of the various witnesses in the car, which Donahue simply ignores. It's more fun for him to accuse Hickey of negligence or incompetence, and involuntary manslaughter, with absolutely no evidence of it.

So the other agents in the car never said Hickey did it? I think that's what is called a cover up. How could you say "absolutely no evidence"? Ignoring it doesn't make it disappear.

The "ballistics expert" Donahue also goes on to say the Carcano's ammunition wouldn't result in fragmentation -- again denying experimental and documentary evidence to the contrary. And as I've already mentioned and written about extensively earlier, the type of ammunition Donahue says was used wouldn't cause the visible cavitation effect. That is paradoxically caused by a long, heavy missile such as the Carcano ammo.

Putting quotes around ballistics expert doesn't make the things he said false. You writing extensively about something doesn't make it true.
 
So the other agents in the car never said Hickey did it? I think that's what is called a cover up.

Your claim, your burden of proof. Everyone near Hickey, including Hickey, testified under oath that no weapon was discharged from that car. If your claim is that they were lying then you need to prove they were lying -- not just suggest they might be.

How could you say "absolutely no evidence"? Ignoring it doesn't make it disappear.

Make what disappear? Donahue's wild inferences and speculation?

Putting quotes around ballistics expert doesn't make the things he said false.

Removing the quotes doesn't make the things he said true. Thankfully we have means other than punctuation to determine whether his claims are credible.

First, "negligent discharge" is something people are specifically trained to avoid if they must use firearms as part of their jobs. It starts with ingrained practices as simple as keeping the safety on and your finger on the trigger guard until you've actually sighted the target. These moves are practiced until they are second nature. Hence for me it's immediately non-credible to suppose that a USSS agent on Presidential protective duty is going to have such poor firearm skills.

Second, the "smell of gunpowder" argument has been addressed here at length. Modern propellant, fired in an open area, doesn't leave an odor. But it's commonly believed among layman that it does, hence authors take advantage of it. What does, however, make an odor is the exhaust from big heavy cars with big engines that are suddenly gunned in order to make a quick getaway.

Third, HP ammunition was not a thing for the AR-15.

Fourth, the trajectory "analysis" based on Donahue's concept of the head wound is comically presumptive, and provides no error analysis. This is important in science, but layman wouldn't know to look for it or care about it.

Fifth, Donahue simply lies blatantly that the long, round-nosed bullets that were the original Carcano ammo don't leave fragments. They do, in skulls, and such was demonstrated. But he ignores this because his hypothesis needs the head shot not to have come from the Carcano. This leads into...

Sixth, the uncontested cavitation in the President's head wound is a characteristic effect of long, narrow, heavy rounds that exhibit minimal fragmentation. A high degree of fragmentation does not result in cavitation.

You writing extensively about something doesn't make it true.

It does, however, make it relevant if I happened to have already answered a point you raise. But if you're not interested in all the ways Donahue has led you by the nose, then we can't help you.

By the way, I apologize to you for being somewhat deliberately obtuse about the photograph and the rifle. That was unfair of me. I simply wanted you to present your case and not make us guess at it.
 
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To be clear, frangible and hollow-point rounds have been around since rounds stopped being round. But the 7.62 caliber is primarily a military round, and hollow-point rounds have been disallowed in warfare since the Hague Convention. Hence, for that particular weapon you're not going to find many HP rounds, just FMJ rounds. There's no incentive to make them in that caliber.

That doesn't save Donahue's pitiful attempt at inferring what kind of round "must" have been used by free-associative conjecture on the bullet fragments.

Jay - I'm an old shooter. The only commercially available ammo in .223 rem or 5.56 mm in '63 was the original 55 grain fmj rounds, and I didn't see soft points until the mid 1960's.

A hobbyist could load a typical varmint type HP in the 5.56, but the SS for sure wasn't using handloaded ammo for duty use - nobody was then and outside of a few military go-fast units no one does now.

As far as HP's in military issue use today, there's a bunch in 5.56 NATO (62 and 77 grain match loads) and 7.62 NATO (168 and 175 grain match loads) the projectile type is an HP, but isn't designed to expand so as far as the DOD is concerned the the stuff is legal for issue use - the 5.56 versions are relatively recent but the Army and the Marines have been using the 7.62 168 Sierra BTHP for sniping and match use for the last 25 - 30 years. When I was a young guy we used to pull the 173 grain FMJ out of the M118 match round and load the 168 Sierra match BTHP in it's place, using the same powder load/primer etc. Cheap and easy way to improve groups downrange when the shooter did their part.
 
Smoking Gun *13: The motorcade route was changed at the last minute and yet the assassination occurred on the part that had been changed.

Think about it. As Chief of Police Jesse Curry confirmed in his JFK Assassination File (1969), which I discuss elsewhere in this volume, it was not until 18 November 1963 that the final motorcade route was settled at a meeting between representatives of the Police Department and the Secret Service, when it was agreed that the motorcade would take a right off Main Street onto Houston and a very sharp left onto Urn en route to the Trade Mart, where JFK~ was scheduled to present a luncheon speech. At the turn from Houston onto Elm, remarkably, the motorcade was considered over and local security was no longer provided. This appears to be such a transparent pretext for disavowing responsibility for the President's security by the Dallas Police as to be indicative of what is known in the law as "consciousness of guilt" in failing to take or in taking measures that ordinarily would or would not be taken--save for knowledge of the circumstances of a crime

Indeed, the revised motorcade route was never published in the newspapers,


http://www.assassinationscience.com/prologue.html

Hank


Wow, that is like some serious fantasy.
 
Indeed, the revised motorcade route was never published in the newspapers,

This is one that I am going to attribute to deliberate dishonesty, because the only way to miss it is to not even try.

The Dallas Morning News on Nov 19
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dmntue.gif

The Dallas Times-Herald on Nov 19
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dthtue.gif

The Dallas Times-Herald the night before the assassination
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dthmap.gif

Seriously, how could ANYONE have figured out that the motorcade was going to take Main to Houston, Houston to Elm, go under the triple underpass and then get on the Stemmons Freeway? The odds are astronomical!!!!
 
The only commercially available ammo in .223 rem or 5.56 mm in '63 was the original 55 grain fmj rounds...

No argument. When I said "available" I mean for military use. People started experimenting with different bullet shapes almost from the get-go. But that doesn't mean you could walk into Sears and get frangible rounds in any caliber.

...the SS for sure wasn't using handloaded ammo for duty use - nobody was then and outside of a few military go-fast units no one does now.

The point I was driving at is that if Donahue is trying to explain the fragments in Kennedy's head as necessarily the product of a 7.72 mm hollow-point round fired accidentally from a AR-15 issued by the USSS, he's daft off his rocker.

...but isn't designed to expand so as far as the DOD is concerned the the stuff is legal for issue use

Yes, I should have said that the expansion was the key factor, not the geometry of the bullet prior to firing. The Hague Convention didn't prohibit HP rounds per se, only expanding rounds. The typical reason to soften the point, however, is for expansion. So there you have it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hollow-point non-expanding rounds have the accuracy of a heavy round, but the wound factor of a light round.
 
I don't think anyone in this thread has advocated for the "Jackie did it" scenario, but it has been forwarded in the conspiracy nutland. If someone had said it here, I would consider it screwier than Nakani's version.
 
2 poor shots imo.

1 missed before it hit the real target (hitting JFK first), then the dudes wife pulling him down into her lap unknowingly pulling him out of the path of the second shot. Second shot misses and hits unintended target JFK. Mystery solved!
 
No argument. When I said "available" I mean for military use. People started experimenting with different bullet shapes almost from the get-go. But that doesn't mean you could walk into Sears and get frangible rounds in any caliber.

The point I was driving at is that if Donahue is trying to explain the fragments in Kennedy's head as necessarily the product of a 7.72 mm hollow-point round fired accidentally from a AR-15 issued by the USSS, he's daft off his rocker.

Yes, I should have said that the expansion was the key factor, not the geometry of the bullet prior to firing. The Hague Convention didn't prohibit HP rounds per se, only expanding rounds. The typical reason to soften the point, however, is for expansion. So there you have it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hollow-point non-expanding rounds have the accuracy of a heavy round, but the wound factor of a light round.

You and I have no beef, you're not on the wrong tract - other than the fact that the AR platform is designed around the 5.56 x 45mm (.223 Remington) and if Donahue's fantasy was reality that was the round that would have impacted JFK

Before the .223 or 5.56 mm, there was the .222 Remington and long before that there was the .22 Hornet, the first high velocity varmint round, based on the old blackpowder .22 WCF.

There were various HP's and soft point projos available in .223-.224 but they were strictly a hand load proposition and there's -0- % chance that any federal LEA was using handloads.

There really isn't a measurable difference in lethality between fmj's and the various BTHP match loads the military and LEA's use today. The singular advantage of the BTHP is jacket concentricity. The BTHP rounds are more consistently "in spec" and closer to being perfectly concentric than military FMJ's.

If you're comparing GI issue 62 grain M855 or SS109 5.56 mm ammo to the go-fast unit M262 77 grain BTHP match ammo or M80 ball 150 grain fmj 7.62 NATO round to The 168 grain or 175 grain BTHP rounds the heavier projectile, even at a lower initial muzzle velocity will be more lethal downrange, but that's a function of projectile weight, not jacket construction and/or tip design.
 
I don't think anyone in this thread has advocated for the "Jackie did it" scenario, but it has been forwarded in the conspiracy nutland. If someone had said it here, I would consider it screwier than Nakani's version.
Well, here's a screwy one for you:
2 poor shots imo.

1 missed before it hit the real target (hitting JFK first), then the dudes wife pulling him down into her lap unknowingly pulling him out of the path of the second shot. Second shot misses and hits unintended target JFK. Mystery solved!

Apparently Connally ("the dude") was the intended target. Of course, this is coming from a guy who thinks John Wilkes Booth was Lincoln's son, and was trying to save him at Ford's Theater, only to be unjustly framed for the assassination. :rolleyes:
 
Greer (the driver) doing the shooting always made me go "what?".
I think that was one of Bill Coopers ones...
 
There is no way of knowing what was going though Jackie's mind when she climbed on the trunk. We do know what was going through JFK's mind moments before though. Too soon?
 
Greer (the driver) doing the shooting always made me go "what?".
I think that was one of Bill Coopers ones...

As soon as you can assert that the Z-film was completely modified and (therefore) has no resemblance to reality, you can pretty much assert anything.
 
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