• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

Status
Not open for further replies.
Matthew Ellard said:
The tiles in the gas chamber are interesting as eyewitnesses accurately described them in 1945 and when excavated in 2013, it was an exact match.
Click to expand...

Charles Traynor said:
Wishful thinking is also thinking.
Fact: No homicidal gas chamber has ever been found or excavated at Treblinka. Some old bricks and handful of tiles do not a gas chamber make.
Click to expand...

Thankfully, Charles Traynor, a holocaust denier, has given up a perfect example, above, to show the "working methodology" of the cult.

The cult "group think" compels Charles to respond on one isolated issue while Charles pretends to forget all the complimentary evidence. For example Charles "forgets" that the German commanding officers of Treblinka II extermination camp confessed openly to the executions.

Hauptsturmführer Franz Stangl CO Treblinka "I think it started the day I first saw the Totenlager [extermination area] in Treblinka. I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of black-blue corpses. It had nothing to do with humanity"

Charles then "forgets" That the Polish government initiated a formal investigation of Treblinka II just after the war. The leading Judge, Justice Lukaszkiewicz, issued a formal reports that confirms the German officer's confessions.

Justice Lukaszkiewicz (examining mass burial pits after bodies were removed, cremated (to hide the crime) and returned to the burial pits, by the Germans.)
".... its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition.[208] The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here."

Evidence of Gassing
"The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of wounding."

"During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones)."

Charles also forgets that the Poles did take photos and the photos show the enormous scale of examining the cremated remains of over 800,000 adults & children. (See bottom of post)

Charles then forgets that the SS kept beautiful records of all the dead people's clothing that was carefully recycled due to shortages.

Nuremberg Document NO-1257 Pohl to Himmler 6 February 1943 containing a detailed list of items seized . Among them were 221 train cars' worth of appropriated clothing
[...]2. Office for Germanization [VoMi]
Men's clothing:
overcoats - 99,000
jackets - 57,000
vests - 27,000
pants - 62,000
drawers - 38,000
shirts - 132,000
pullovers - 9,000
scarves - 2,000
pajamas - 6,000
collars - 10,000
gloves - 2,000 pairs
socks - 10,000 pairs
shoes - 31,000 pairs

Women's clothing:
coats - 155,000 pieces
dresses - 119,000 pieces
blouses - 30,000 pieces
pullovers - 60,000 pieces
drawers - 49,000 pieces
panties - 60,000 pieces
jackets - 26,000 pieces
shirts - 30,000 pieces
chemises - 125,000 pieces
pajamas - 27,000 pieces
aprons - 36,000 pieces
brassieres - 25,000 pieces
underwear - 22,000 pieces
kerchiefs - 85,000 pieces
shoes - 111,000 pieces

Children's clothing:
overcoats - 15,000
boys' jackets - 11,000
boys' pants - 3,000
shirts - 3,000
scarves - 4,000
pullovers - 1,000
drawers - 1,000
girls' dresses - 9,000
girls' chemises - 5,000
aprons - 2,000
drawers - 5,000
stockings - 10,000 pairs
shoes - 22,000 pairs

Charles then forgets his own claim that the victims were resettled "somewhere" in the east, because Charles can't explain why they were all nude

Charles then forgets about the Polish Treblinka Station Master, Franciszek Zabecki. Mr Zabecki wrote down the trains arriving at Treblinka II and handed a log book to the post war authorities. As there was only a single line leading into the extermination camp, Charles has to explain how more than 800,000 people "left" Treblinka II. Was it by hovercraft, Charles?

Finally Charles forgets the very obvious fact that, he claims Treblinka II was a transit camp, but can'y explain why there were no barracks, or water, or food, for the 6,000 people that arrived with each train.

Thankfully Staffordshire University has answered that question. They performed a forensic archaeological survey of Treblinka in 2013 and identifies 11 (so far) mass burial pits, created at the time the Jews arrived.
https://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeol...scapes/genius-and-genocide/finding-treblinka/
 

Attachments

  • Ash Treblinka 1945.jpg
    Ash Treblinka 1945.jpg
    24.6 KB · Views: 417
  • Polish investigation at Treblinka .JPG
    Polish investigation at Treblinka .JPG
    70.5 KB · Views: 7
nodster78 said:
Holocaust deniers as a 'fifth column' for the Iranians? Really?
Click to expand...

Yes. The Tehran holocaust denial conference, to which most of the Western Holocaust deniers went. Would you like to read some post conference editorials by Western holocaust deniers, praising former Iranian President Ahmadinejad? They are extremely funny as Iranian propaganda was fairly rudimentary back then.
 

Attachments

  • 11tehran600.jpg
    11tehran600.jpg
    46.1 KB · Views: 10
HghrSymmetry said:
As CBS News correspondent Mark Phillips reports, the man facing charges didn't kill anyone. But Oskar Groening, now a 93-year-old man, has a dark past, and it has finally caught up with him.

He was the accountant at the Nazi's Auschwitz concentration camp in Poland. He took the victims' money, and a German court will now decide whether he's guilty as an accessory to murder.
Click to expand...

This has been very interesting. Groening has confirmed the executions at Auschwitz. In 2013 Treblinka's gas chamber was excavated. Recently, it really has been a bad period for holocaust denier fund raising scams.

There were two remaining holocaust deniers at the Skeptic Society's forum. One has stopped posting and the other has switched to claiming UFO's are real.
:D
 
Matthew Ellard said:
This has been very interesting. Groening has confirmed the executions at Auschwitz. In 2013 Treblinka's gas chamber was excavated. Recently, it really has been a bad period for holocaust denier fund raising scams.

There were two remaining holocaust deniers at the Skeptic Society's forum. One has stopped posting and the other has switched to claiming UFO's are real.
:D
Click to expand...

Groening was interviewed on the BBC DVD "Auschwitz The Nazis & the Final Solution".

Seemed to be pretty honest.
 
Matthew Ellard said:
This has been very interesting. Groening has confirmed the executions at Auschwitz. In 2013 Treblinka's gas chamber was excavated. Recently, it really has been a bad period for holocaust denier fund raising scams.

There were two remaining holocaust deniers at the Skeptic Society's forum. One has stopped posting and the other has switched to claiming UFO's are real.
:D
Click to expand...

Acknowledged. I have been only skimming the topics as of late, but haven't seen too much of the main denier (aka: D).
 
Rincewind said:
Groening was interviewed on the BBC DVD "Auschwitz The Nazis & the Final Solution".

Seemed to be pretty honest.
Click to expand...
Indeed, Gröning's experiences sums up the trouble with trying to reason with Holocaust deniers. After he pointed out that he had been to Auschwitz and pretty much had seen the entire process from start to finish, he found himself recieving mail from deniers who claimed that he clearly was mistaken... :rolleyes:

He gave en interview to Der Spiegel 10 years ago recounting his experiences then and now: http://www.spiegel.de/international...s-the-bookkeeper-from-auschwitz-a-355188.html
 
Charles Traynor said:
Wishful thinking is also thinking.

Fact: No homicidal gas chamber has ever been found or excavated at Treblinka. Some old bricks and handful of tiles do not a gas chamber make.
Click to expand...

Facts:
The bricks and tiles match the descriptions given by witness to the chambers such as Abraham Krzepicki.

The location is where various witnesses said the gas chambers were in the camp.

That the remains were found under sand and soil matches the detail given by Yankel Wiernik that there was a cover up at the camp to hide what was done.
 
Matthew Ellard said:
Recently, it really has been a bad period for holocaust denier fund raising scams.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately this will no stop the deniers.

At best they will just wait a while until these facts come under the radar and then they will resume spreading their ********.

They are like the members of any other sect: they have the faith and are out of reach of rational arguments based on checked facts... :(
 
Degeneve said:
Unfortunately this will no stop the deniers.

At best they will just wait a while until these facts come under the radar and then they will resume spreading their ********.

They are like the members of any other sect: they have the faith and are out of reach of rational arguments based on checked facts... :(
Click to expand...

This.

Nothing short of inventing a time machine and sending them to Treblinka or Birkenau c.1943 would be enough to convince them, and I suspect even that wouldn't be enough for some.
 
Hellbound said:
As I've gotten older, I think that quote needs a revision:

"There's none so blind as those who have already seen the light."
Click to expand...

OR

"There's none so blind as those who have already know what they want to see".
 
Degeneve said:
Unfortunately this will no stop the deniers.

At best they will just wait a while until these facts come under the radar and then they will resume spreading their ********.

They are like the members of any other sect: they have the faith and are out of reach of rational arguments based on checked facts... :(
Click to expand...

My gut feeling is that we can sort of assess the holocaust denial cult, by reviewing other cult "models". It is not an isolationist cult seeking total separation from normal human society, but rather seeks public donations and wants to "tell the world the truth". It appears, the cult must engage with the public to survive.

I would agree that the "lower ranks" of the cult are true believers who simply accept the propaganda and ignore conflicting evidence. However, to keep the message acceptable to normal members of the public ( potential donors) , the "bosses" need to produce sanitised propaganda, generally on secondary issues ( Right of free speech to discuss denial, persecution of "free speech" freedom fighters, secret Jewish-Soviet organisations and so on)

For this reason, I am suspicious that the cult "bosses" would need to be a bit more educated than the "lower ranks". This brings me to my main point. I have no way of proving this, but I'm suspicious that some holocaust denier "bosses" are very aware that the holocaust was real and are simply going through the motions to keep receiving donations. I'm not talking about large amounts of money. I talking about "one on one" scams by "bosses" to one or two, dumb but rich people.

Do the "lower ranks" make donations?
I'm going to say something a bit unusual. My gut feeling is that the holocaust denial "lower ranks" are uneducated, with little disposable income to donate. All because a particular cult may seem to pump out volumes of propaganda to the public, does not mean the bosses have any intention of conning the public or maintaining the "lower ranks". The intent may be to con one or two richer blokes by saying "See, look at all the good work we do informing the public". I don't know if this is the case here. I'm just thinking about different ways of looking at the holocaust denial cult "bosses"
 
Matthew Ellard said:
For this reason, I am suspicious that the cult "bosses" would need to be a bit more educated than the "lower ranks". This brings me to my main point. I have no way of proving this, but I'm suspicious that some holocaust denier "bosses" are very aware that the holocaust was real and are simply going through the motions to keep receiving donations. I'm not talking about large amounts of money. I talking about "one on one" scams by "bosses" to one or two, dumb but rich people.
Click to expand...

As a matter of facts they may also find financial support with some governements which officially (or unofficially) support Holocaust denial.

I would guess that a country like Iran which has organised twice an "International Holocaust Cartoon Competition" and one "International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust" attended by the "elite" of the world deniers is also ready to spend money to donate to those who support and try to spread the denialist theories. And I can not exclude that there might be other governments which do it too, but in a less visible fashion...

With respect to "lower ranks" donations I can ygree with your statement. However "lower ranks" members may also buy some material (e.g. books) which provides funding to the "denialist churches"...
 
Everything I Learned About WW II Is A LIE!

There are many conspiracies out there. That the U.S. was behind the 9-11 attacks, the moon landing being faked, the earth being 6000 years old, etc. To the best of my ability to judge, what I am going to tell you isn't one of those crackpot conspiracies. Keep in mind a couple old sayings. "In war, truth is the first casualty" and "History is written by the victors."



Don't believe it? Look up the old Red Cross documents I mentioned. Watch the documentary I mentioned. Do what the makers of the documentary invite you to do at the end of it. Look up the facts for yourself.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom