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General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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MaxMurx said:
The point is that the video shows Ernst Zündel and other deniers being rigorously persecuted. Pro Holocausters do not speak up against that unusual practice, which means: they support it. In this case a discussion is not a discussion, science is not science. Thesis without anti thesis cannot lead to sythesis, is unscientific, if not unethical. Everybody being involved in such a pseudo discussion behaves this unethical way - deniers as well as all others. First persecution has to be removed everywhere. Then discussions can be called discussions.
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In my experience persecution can be summed up as people, especially academics disagreeing with them.

They seem top have this mindset that because the holocaust is accepted that responding to their claim is persecution, they don't want a two way conversation, they want to just make a statement and let whatever fish bite, bite.

And when this doesn't happen, they claim persecution.
 
Saggy said:
I cannot find the holohoax denial forum?

Is discussion of the hoax still allowed?

How do I find it?

For those interested, the best intro to the subject is provided by 'The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, the Case Against the Presumed Extermination of European Jewry' by Northwestern prof Arthur Butz. This is a great book, every skeptic should read it.
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Can't imagine why Saggy would come here to peddle that nonsense. He can't really think too many people here would be interested in the dishonest ranting of some Hitler hugger.
 
I like the description of him as a Northwestern Professor.

While he is that it is interesting to read how the University, which gave him tenure has disavowed his,

Butz is a Holocaust denier who has made similar assertions previously. His latest statement, like his earlier writings and pronouncements, is a contemptible insult to all decent and feeling people. While I hope everyone understands that Butz's opinions are his own and in no way represent the views of the University or me personally, his reprehensible opinions on this issue are an embarrassment to Northwestern.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Butz

by the way he is an associate professor of electrical engineering
 
Saggy said:
Is discussion of the hoax still allowed?
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Absolutely. However, once the the gas chamber at Treblinka II had been excavated, further discussion seemed pointless and the remaining members of the cult faded away or joined other cults.

Perhaps we can now discuss some of the various claims you have made over the years and apply them to the new existing evidence?
:)

Perhaps you would enjoy discussing some of Eric Hunt's propaganda videos to discuss their "accuracy". The Treblinka propaganda video would be a good start. Have you watched Eric's video from start to finish? ( I can't find many deniers who have or who are willing to talk about Eric's videos, once Eric became the "new Richard Krege" )
:)

Perhaps you would enjoy a discussion on "Revisionism". Apparently "Revisionists" have the goal of revising established history based on new evidence. I would ask you if you are demanding that Eric Hunt fixes the clear errors in his video's facts. Is Eric still a "Revisionist" for refusing to do so? Have you discussed this with him on CODOH?
:)
 
Matthew Ellard said:
Perhaps you would enjoy discussing some of Eric Hunt's propaganda videos to discuss their "accuracy". The Treblinka propaganda video would be a good start. Have you watched Eric's video from start to finish? ( I can't find many deniers who have or who are willing to talk about Eric's videos, once Eric became the "new Richard Krege" )
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Speaking of, did Krege ever release his "report", or are we still left with a handful of unconnected images that mean nothing and his word that the rest blows the whole thing wide open?
 
Matthew Ellard said:
Absolutely. However, once the the gas chamber at Treblinka II had been excavated, further discussion seemed pointless and the remaining members of the cult faded away or joined other cults.

Perhaps we can now discuss some of the various claims you have made over the years and apply them to the new existing evidence?
:)

Perhaps you would enjoy discussing some of Eric Hunt's propaganda videos to discuss their "accuracy". The Treblinka propaganda video would be a good start. Have you watched Eric's video from start to finish? ( I can't find many deniers who have or who are willing to talk about Eric's videos, once Eric became the "new Richard Krege" )
:)

Perhaps you would enjoy a discussion on "Revisionism". Apparently "Revisionists" have the goal of revising established history based on new evidence. I would ask you if you are demanding that Eric Hunt fixes the clear errors in his video's facts. Is Eric still a "Revisionist" for refusing to do so? Have you discussed this with him on CODOH?
:)
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Matthew could you be so kind and link to the report on the excavation at T-II please?

TIA
 
Nonpareil said:
Speaking of, did Krege ever release his "report", or are we still left with a handful of unconnected images that mean nothing and his word that the rest blows the whole thing wide open?
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There was never any paper at all released by Richard Krege. There is a "Krege report" by the Barnes Review, but this appears to be fake as it has so many technical errors concerning the soil at Treblinka

"It (GPR) is based on modern radar technology permitting the analysis of the composition of soil to a depth of 30 meters"
http://barnesreview.org/wp/archives/280

Das Gerät kann, abhängig von der Einstellung, Veränderungen in der Beschaffenheit des Erdbodens bis zu 30 Metern Tiefe finden.
http://vho.org/VffG/2000/1/Krege62-64.html

(It is actually only 4 to 5 metres at Treblinka.)

Sturdy Colls: Unfortunately no. The survey technology does not allow us to go to certain depths. I know that it is over 4 meters.

It is hard to work out what he actually did. No university was engaged to analyse the raw GPR data, if there was any GPR data anyway. The still image that was released "suggests" under ground disturbances, which Krege denied. He claimed to have also taken soil samples, however as he fled Poland on his brother's passport, I'm skeptical he kept any soil samples at all. Once Sturdy Colls had located 11 of the mass graves at Treblinka II, Krege was exposed as lying.
 

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Holocaust Denial is not a conspiracy theory. It is racism. It is a well-documented historical fact and there is even evidence of Hitler's desire to cover-it-up with the acquiescence of the German population. This black propaganda originated somewhere, and it certainly isn't born out of facts, it is a complete forgery and divorce from any coherent historical legitimacy. Two suspects come to mind -- the Nazis themselves or the Soviets.
 
Krege...

:D

Lawnmower man.

One of our forum pals who makes disaster ware (windmills with vanes shaped like swastikas etc.) was on the computer wireless. The Carolyn Yeager gargling white racist radio paranoia hour. He talked about the "Krege report" and how the people from Holocaust Controversies, "who took over one of the forums that he used to belong to" ( wonder what one that is ;-) ) said then whenever he mentioned Treblinka and used to demand to be shown the Krege report, they laughed at him. He asks Germar Rudolf about it (Yeager's guest on the show) and finds that it actually turned out that it never existed!

Rudolf says that the reason it doesn't exist though is that Richard Craigie did not publish it because he was scared of something. All perfectly in keeping with the miasma of fear and anxiety that Carolyn peddles...or incompetence.

The report (unalysed GPR data) is still on 2 CD ROMs, apparently. It was apparently mailed out to numerous University departments. None of whom ever said they had received it. Or the data,That is according to Toben of the Adelaide Institute who funded the expedition to the camp in order to definitely prove that there were no mass graves at Treblinka.

Revisionists may tell a different tale..
 
Jango said:
Holocaust Denial is not a conspiracy theory. It is racism. It is a well-documented historical fact and there is even evidence of Hitler's desire to cover-it-up with the acquiescence of the German population. This black propaganda originated somewhere, and it certainly isn't born out of facts, it is a complete forgery and divorce from any coherent historical legitimacy. Two suspects come to mind -- the Nazis themselves or the Soviets.
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The Soviets?

Please explain how "the Soviets" ordered German SS senior officers to dig up and cremate all the bodies at Treblinka? In your own words please.
 
MaxMurx said:
The point is that the video shows Ernst Zündel and other deniers being rigorously persecuted. Pro Holocausters do not speak up against that unusual practice, which means: they support it.
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Zundel and his ideas have been properly debunked. When he persisted in his false claims, and doubled down on racist agitation Canada PROSECUTED him (which allowed him to attempt to prove in a court that what he was doing was not promoting hatred - he failed), whereupon he was sent back to his home country. It was Zundel's choice to break German law.

In this case a discussion is not a discussion, science is not science. Thesis without anti thesis cannot lead to sythesis, is unscientific, if not unethical.
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Sounds rather Marxist.

However, thesis and antithesis does not necessarily lead to synthesis - in the case of in question here, denial of historical events, the interplay leads only to the elimination of the antithesis as a valid point, leaving the thesis.

Everybody being involved in such a pseudo discussion behaves this unethical way - deniers as well as all others. First persecution has to be removed everywhere. Then discussions can be called discussions.
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The problem is that the deniers have not been prepared to accept that their antithesis may be incorrect - namely that the Nazi regime was not engaged in deliberate genocide and mass murder.
 
Matthew Ellard said:
The Soviets?

Please explain how "the Soviets" ordered German SS senior officers to dig up and cremate all the bodies at Treblinka? In your own words please.
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I may be wrong, but I believe Jango is referring to Holocaust denialism, not the existence of the pits at Treblinka as the "black propaganda."
 
Jango said:
Holocaust Denial is not a conspiracy theory. It is racism. It is a well-documented historical fact and there is even evidence of Hitler's desire to cover-it-up with the acquiescence of the German population. This black propaganda originated somewhere, and it certainly isn't born out of facts, it is a complete forgery and divorce from any coherent historical legitimacy. Two suspects come to mind -- the Nazis themselves or the Soviets.
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Flase dichotomy. Holocause Deinal is both a racist doctrine and a wacked out conspiracy theory.
 
Hans said:
Thanks, sorry for the delay took a while to read all that!
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The tiles in the gas chamber are interesting as eyewitnesses accurately described them in 1945 and when excavated in 2013, it was an exact match.


Regarding Holocaust Denial initiated from Germany or the Soviet Union
OK I must admit I did misread Jango's comment and must apologise. I will leave it to a qualified historian, who has specifically studied the topic, to summarise the origins of holocaust denial. (hint hint)

It is obvious that in the mid 80s, the Iranian government financially supported and attempted to "flip" holocaust deniers into an anti-American destabilisation group, without any luck.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Conference_to_Review_the_Global_Vision_of_the_Holocaust

However, nowadays, the shrinking cult simply seems to be a method of swindling donations out of teenage boys and into the hands of three of four individuals. As the cult has almost died out, I imagine these three of four individuals will look for other conspiracies to join and fleece a larger population of disturbed and gullible teenage boys.
 
I lose all sense of humor over holocaust denial, you can laugh at big footers and such but this just makes me feel sad. I'm a lover of history(I have like800 history books)and I can't see how anyone could look honestly at the overwhelming evidence and not conclude the Nazis shot gassed and starved at least six and a half million jews. At the end of January 1945 my grandad took part in the liberation of Bergen Belsen he never spoke to me of it. I got all his other war stories but not that, my gran told me what he told her though too sleep at night he used a sock clothspegged to his nose for the smell and about the huts full of dead and dying-people alive, dying and dead in a sea of filth. How can people say it never happened those that deny the holocaust are all neo Nazis, anti semites and bigots. Please don't reply if your a denier because I won't lower myself to arguing with you.
 
Jango said:
Holocaust Denial is not a conspiracy theory. It is racism. It is a well-documented historical fact and there is even evidence of Hitler's desire to cover-it-up with the acquiescence of the German population. This black propaganda originated somewhere, and it certainly isn't born out of facts, it is a complete forgery and divorce from any coherent historical legitimacy. Two suspects come to mind -- the Nazis themselves or the Soviets.
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It is a conspiracy theory, and many (if not most) conspiracy theories have racist subtexts.
 
Matthew

Could you help out those of us who do not follow this subject as closely as you do. Might you comment on the state or status of Holocaust denial; is it becoming less or more widespread and who are the top three people/organizations doing so?

Thanks
 
Matthew Ellard said:
The tiles in the gas chamber are interesting as eyewitnesses accurately described them in 1945 and when excavated in 2013, it was an exact match.
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Wishful thinking is also thinking.

Fact: No homicidal gas chamber has ever been found or excavated at Treblinka. Some old bricks and handful of tiles do not a gas chamber make.
 
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