Roll Call: What do you think happened on 9/11, and why?

Clayton Moore said:
Excellent post.
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Again, I have to ask you if this comment means you agree fully, partially, or at all with Zeuzzz's theory. Could you please elaborate? :confused:

Clayton Moore said:
Many have been lured and baited into getting banned. That keeps the odds overwhelmingly in the home team's favor. It's not unlike how the MSM lies by omission about 9/11 and many other negative actions against America and Americans.
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I am not baiting anyone here into breaking any rules. In other threads, yes, occasinally I return heat with heat. Here, I try my best to maintain an atmosphere that is friendly to all sides, no matter how much I might personally disagree with their positions. To wit, see my responses to what truthers and fencers Jihad Jane, paloalto, MaGZ and Zeuzzz wrote.

Please not also the several posts in this thread where I asked debunkers NOT to jump on truthers theories.

If you just state as consisely as possible your working hypothesis of what happened on 9/11, who did it, how they did it, and why they did it, and indicate which parts of your hypothesis you consider hard fact, and which you only guess or are unsure about, how could anybody possibly hold that against you?

The only time I get a little impatient and cool down my manners is when posters post without addressing the OP by stating their best personal hypothesis.
 
Zeuzzz said:
I thought that there was "no discussion" in this thread? Anyways ...




I don't have a working theory, as such. I just don't think that the video evidence and other evidence relevant to WTC7's collapse can be explained away without drastically contradicting many parts of the official account. Thus my agnosticism. Few other points too but not as major as that one.

As for the other bits I highlighted, I think to say that OBL's aim was "to lure the USA into a violent and costly reaction" is stupid. America's completely unnecessary over-reaction to the attacks (Afghanistan + Iraq) would have been nigh on impossible to anticipate. No doubt the war against both of these innocent countries could not have happened without the popular support the public gave due to 9/11. AQ did not plan to start wars and have hundreds of thousands of their people in their area killed, that's stupid even by their standards. OBL might have been a perfect front man, and indeed probably did harbor enough hatred to carry out such actions, but I think he lacked the power, support and capabilities to carry it out alone.

Despite the huge amount of documentaries all about every major disaster, plus huge amounts of 9/11 based ones, I've yet to see one that gives a detailed account of how this AQ plan worked, and how the logistics and main details of the plan were carried out. Paperwork will be even better than documentaries. Where did Bin Laden, his family and AQ get the large amounts of money + funding from, how did they have access to such security systems, wheres the video and security footage of the attackers (considering there will be thousands of airport videos)? etc.

These might even exist now, I'll be happy to read/watch any info anyone has on this.




Until I see an official working hypothesis that explains the collapses (specially of WTC7) I'm still in the middle. Not seen an official account that explains the collapse evidence yet, but neither a conspiracy theory that stands up to all scrutiny.




Don't know.




Power.



NIST report being as long as it was only covers up to pre-collapse conditions and ignores basically all post collapse modelling. The one column failure = total collapse model of WT7 seems ridiculous. And I guess the amount of money (or lack there-of) they used to fund the 9/11 report and further investigations seems insulting for such an important event are my main criticisms.
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Zeuzz,

Like you it took me months to wrap my mind around Building 7's freefall collapse for 2.25 seconds. I just couldn't agree with the NIST Report as it stood. It helped me to look at the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat, who made some important modifications to the official report. Plus, there is no official story at all from the onset of collapse onward, so you need to look at other sources. I talked to a lot of physicists, engineers and other from this and other sources before understanding it to my satisfaction. It's summarized in Part 18 of my YouTube videos; it's not an official account tho.
 
Bump for Jay Howard. I'm interested in his version of what happened that day.

Everyone else please remember this bit from the OP:

Oystein said:
Hey everybody,

Rule 1: No discussion, please!
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We can then discuss aspects in an appropriate thread.
 
pgimeno said:
Bump for Jay Howard. I'm interested in his version of what happened that day.

Everyone else please remember this bit from the OP:


We can then discuss aspects in an appropriate thread.
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Oystein invited a couple others, Ziggi, gerrycan, and Tony Szamboti to do so as well.

I will abide the rule of no debunkers pile on or discussion in thread.
 
Oystein said:
Hey everybody,

Rule 1: No discussion, please!
I don't want to debate anybody's opinion, so please refrain entirely from quoting anybody, calling them names, demanding evidence etc.
Only exception: Requests to clear up statements you did not understand.

I would like everybody, debunkers and truthers alike, to state as consisely as possible your working hypothesis of what happened on 9/11, who did it, how they did it, and why they did it. You may indicate which parts of your hypothesis you consider hard fact, and which you only guess or are unsure about.

Here's a little checklist of the elements you might want to consider:
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Oystein said:
- 4 civilian planes - real? hijacked? remote controlled? crashed where?
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4 real planes were hijacked and crashed where we all know they were crashed: North Tower, South Tower, Pentagon & Shanksville field. The only plane I could see the theory of remote control having any weight is with the Pentagon.

Oystein said:
- Twin Towers - plane crashes? Cause of collapse?
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Plane crashes, yes. They probably collapsed in the manner as described by NIST, although I see the alternative method, CD, as being likely too.

Oystein said:
- WTC7 - cause of collapse?
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Same as above.

Oystein said:
- Pentagon - plane crash? Missile?
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Plane crash.

Oystein said:
- Shanksville - plane? Shot down?
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I don't know.

Oystein said:
- If Al Quaeda: Do they hate our freedom? Mindless killers? Is it about Israel? Did they want the wars?
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They probably hate American women for their freedoms, like being able to speak, not having to wear a tarp, showing skin and their lovely cleavage and won't be stoned to death if her husband cheats on her. There are mindless killers among them, yes. Some are inspired to attack the U.S. for its support of Israel and the deaths of Palestinians at the hand of Israel. It does appear that they wanted to draw us into a major conflict. OBL mentioned bankrupting the U.S. An Islamic Caliphate is what is wanted.

Oystein said:
- If the government: Who was involved? Bush? Cheney? Any foreign agents? MIHOP or LIHOP?
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Without a doubt, LIHOP. Foreign agents were involved; some were helping the hijackers (the Saudis) whereas others (the Israelis) were spying on the hijackers.

Oystein said:
- What about the investigations? 9/11 Commission? NIST? FEMA? FBI? Need a new one? if so, what objectives? Who should chair it?
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1. Resisted from the top, no transparency from the top, a political conflict of interest, executive internal management & coercion (the 'minders'), didn't want to nail anyone's balls to the wall, was lied to and deceived, used information attained through torture, omitted a lot of relevant information and history from its report, didn't push hard in important directions like financing (called 'of little practical significance') or how the IC and executive leadership bungled the information they had (called a 'failure of imagination') and many of their records remain classified although they called for transparency, mind you, after President Bush was out of office.
2. Incomplete investigation.
3. Same as above.
4. From what little we can actually read of their report, it leaves much to question. Take the timelines of the hijackers they have on their website right now. Why is so much of the hijackers' movements in the early '90's classified?
5. No.
 
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Good summary Jango.

The overall balance of technical v political similar to my own viewpoint.

I'm significantly more convinced than you on some of the technical aspects.

Still IMO a lot of scope for discussion of the political management stuff but it is not my area of interest.

Don't overlook the certainty of LIHOOI ;)
 
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The preponderance of evidence leads to the inescapable conclusion that on 9/11/2001 a terrorist cabal with a long history of attacking the United States and its interests executed a plan years in the making to attack symbols of American economic, military and political power in an attempt to achieve their own political objectives.

The plan was simple, requiring little specialized skill and could be done on the cheap while inflicting maximum damage. It was a logical combination of two of international terrorism's favorite plays:

Hijacking and suicide bombing.

Large civilian commercial aircraft on regularly scheduled trans-continental flights taking off from within the United States were selected as they would be close to the intended targets, minimizing response time for national defenses and maximizing the potential damage.

The damage done to the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center and their subsequent collapse is entirely consistent with, and readily explained by the high-speed impact of large commercial aircraft and nothing else. The collapse of the Twin Towers was incidental to the plan and not required for it to be successful. A nice bonus perhaps, but not a requirement. Indeed, the plan was so simple and effective that anything after hijacked aircraft could have been considered a victory. Even crashing 4 aircraft into empty fields would have been a huge propaganda coup. 4 aircraft successfully hijacked and destroyed, hundreds of dead American's. Still an un-precedented attack no matter how one slices it.

The damage to and subsequent collapse of 7 World Trade Center and any other buildings in lower Manhattan as a result of the attacks on the Twin Towers is irrelevant to understanding what happened that day, who did it, how and why. Claims that 7 WTC was for some reason deliberately blown up fail utterly under the total lack of motive and the simple fact there are infinitely better ways to do it than any CT has proposed if someone actually needed to.

But they didn't.

9/11 was about terror and fear - about people - not re-arranging the New York real estate market.

The Pentagon was attacked by the hijacked civilian commercial Flight 77 as part of the same attacks as above - the military target in the trifecta of economic, military and political power.

The aircraft that crashed in Shanksville was the hijacked United Flight 93. Based on what we know the most likely cause for it crashing where it did was a deliberate attempt by the hijackers to crash the aircraft to prevent a revolt by passengers alerted to what had happened in New York from re-taking the plane. The intended target for this attack was likely the U.S. Capitol building in Washington D.C. (I think the White House would have been too difficult to hit).

Al Quaeda cites grievances against the west and the U.S. in particular dating back to at least the Treaty of Versailles when France and Britain in particular betrayed the Arabs and Woodrow Wilson let them. Some of the grievances are justified. None of the violence is. Really what they want is the same thing as those pricks from ISIS - money and power. They just sheath it in a vaneer of religious piety.

The Bush administration wasn't interested in terrorism in 2001. You can't sell trillion-dollar ballistic missile defense systems to the public based on the threat from some cave-dwellers in A-stan. You need an Axis-of-Evil for that. I don't know that 9/11 could have been stopped, if we had enough information in advance to foil the plot but I am pretty sure we weren't going to stop it if we weren't looking for it.

Even after 9/11 the Bush admin was obsessed with Daddy's unfinished business and persued a half-assed and indifferent War on Terror against the real threat in A-stan while fabricating an excuse to quell the POTUS's daddy issues. I actually don't think admin officials lied about all that WMD stuff in Iraq - I think they sincerely believed that once we got in there we would find something - enough that people would forget all the highly embellished details used to sell a war that cost us trillions, de-stabilized the Middle East and increased, not decreased the threat to the United States while increasing the influence of Iran.

The major technical questions re: 9/11 have been solved. We know the who/what/when/where/why/how. Minor questions over details remain, none of which likely to fundamentally move the needle from what we know and many likely un-knowable at any rate. No case has been brought forward that would justify any additional investigation of any significant aspect of the 9/11 crime.
 
- 4 civilian planes - real? hijacked? remote controlled? crashed where?
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Hijacked by 19 Al Qaeda operatives, 1 each into a Tower of the WTC, 1 into the Pentagon, and 1 downed at Shanksville, PA.

- Twin Towers - Cause of collapse?
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Fires and massive structural damage on multiple floors.

- WTC7 - cause of collapse?
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Damage and fire from ejecta from the collapse of WTC1. Fire burned unchallenged for 8 hours.

- Pentagon - plane crash? Missile?
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Plane crash

- Shanksville - plane? Shot down?
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Crashed by Al Qaeda pilot during passenger attempt to retake the aircraft.


- If Al Quaeda: Do they hate our freedom? Mindless killers? Is it about Israel? Did they want the wars?
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A little of all three, but it's not about our freedoms as much as it is our influence. They did not expect the wars at all.

- If the government: Who was involved? Bush? Cheney? Any foreign agents? MIHOP or LIHOP?
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Not the gub'mint.


- What about the investigations? 9/11 Commission? NIST? FEMA? FBI? Need a new one? if so, what objectives? Who should chair it?
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They were fine. It would have been nice to have a deeper look into the intel failure, but as that information dribbles out it has not changed what we knew a week after the attack.
 
As regards the OP, four groups of mother raping, goat ****ers murdered a lot of real people by flying hijacked aircraft into NY (2) and the ground (1)and the Pentagon (1).
Passengers re: ground fought the hijackers and hopefully fed them parts of their bodies before crashing..........
 
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Axxman300 said:
Damage and fire from ejecta from the collapse of WTC1. Fire burned unchallenged for 8 hours.
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Would just like to add that ejecta from the collapse of WTC 2 took out some windows in WTC 7 as well. That created entrance for hot debris to enter #7 in addition to the window breakage from the ejecta from the collapse of WTC 1.
 
Here's what happened on 9/11:
Three out of four teams proved that 5 people can take and hold a plane full of unsuspecting passengers.

One team proved that 4 people is not enough and that informed passengers are less compliant than uninformed passengers.
 
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