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Roll Call: What do you think happened on 9/11, and why?

Oystein

Penultimate Amazing
Oystein
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
18,903
Hey everybody,

Rule 1: No discussion, please!
I don't want to debate anybody's opinion, so please refrain entirely from quoting anybody, calling them names, demanding evidence etc.
Only exception: Requests to clear up statements you did not understand.

I would like everybody, debunkers and truthers alike, to state as consisely as possible your working hypothesis of what happened on 9/11, who did it, how they did it, and why they did it. You may indicate which parts of your hypothesis you consider hard fact, and which you only guess or are unsure about.

Here's a little checklist of the elements you might want to consider:
- 4 civilian planes - real? hijacked? remote controlled? crashed where?
- Twin Towers - plane crashes? Cause of collapse?
- WTC7 - cause of collapse?
- Pentagon - plane crash? Missile?
- Shanksville - plane? Shot down?
- If Al Quaeda: Do they hate our freedom? Mindless killers? Is it about Israel? Did they want the wars?
- If the government: Who was involved? Bush? Cheney? Any foreign agents? MIHOP or LIHOP?
- What about the investigations? 9/11 Commission? NIST? FEMA? FBI? Need a new one? if so, what objectives? Who should chair it?
 
I refer you to the 9/11 Commission Report and the findings of NIST.
 
I go first:

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that 4 civilian airplanes were hijacked and intentionally flown into 3 buildings. One crashed near Shanksville.

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that all the physical damage and loss of life on that day were a result of the plane crashes and the fires they started. No bombs, no additional incendiaries, no controlled demolition

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that the hijackers commaded the cockpits and flew the planes. No remote control.

About flights 11, 175 and 77, I have nothing additional to say.
I am certain, but allow residual doubt, that flight 93 crashed because its passengers resisted and violently iterferred, thus making the hijacker-pilot lose control and crash. No shoot-down to be sure.

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that the hijackings caught FAA and the military units that were on alert to defend the airspace by surprise, that they did everything they could to handle the situation, but were unable to do anything about the 4 planes. The main reasons for this inability were: Too little time; no contingency plans for such situations, resources too thinly spread; inadequate sharing of information between civilian and military agencies due to inadequate or incompatible technology.

I am fairly certain that some agencies of the US goverment had in their possession information that, if assembled and interpreted lucidly ahead of time, might have enabled them to intervene and bust the terrorists before 9/11. I can't judge fairly if the failure to do so is due to avoidable incompetence, or if the odds of finding such information in a sea of data are just prohibitively slim. I do not believe that anyone in these agencies knew of the plan and consciously decided not to interfere. I allow for the remote possibility that there are nefarious elements in the agencies who might be so inclined.

I am certain that the hijackers were a group of 19 or 20 Arabs, mostly from Saudi-Arabia, who were recruited by Al Quaeda, had the blessing of OBL. Among their leaders were KSM and Mohammed Atta. I admit that there is a little wiggle room for doubt, as KSM was abducted in secrecy and tortured. I want to take information presented by secret services with a good grain of salt.

I believe the suicide terrorists were personally motivated mainly by a general feeling of hatred and powerlessness towards the USA and the secualar west. Grievances in connection with the situation in Palestine, and other middle-eastern issues may also individually have placed a role. They were mostly devout muslims of a radical provenance who believed the preaching that they will go to paradise if killed in action against non-believers.

I believe OBL and Al Quaeda hoped to lure the USA into a violent and costly reaction. Secondary goals may have been to gain prestige and attract recruits and other support from muslims around the world, position Al Quaeda as the leading islamist resistance group, or stir up popular uprisings in Arab lands against regimes that Al Quaeda opposes (the monarchies of Saudi-Arabia and Jordan for example, or the Israeli occupations).

I am satisfied with the forensic investigations. They were humongous tasks, had do dive deep into unknown territories, and by and large the efforts were carried out honestly, competently and with sufficient thoroughness. With hindsight, some minor weaknesses may be lamented, such as the failure to investigate WTC7 with the same diligence as WTC1 and 2 were. It is my understanding that the debris of the twin towers was investigated more thoroughly, which undoubtfully is due to its containing so many human remains. There is no foul play.

I think the 9/11 Commission did a great job.

I believe the government, and some agencies thereof, have been too hesitant to allow reviews of their roles in desaster management and preparedness.

I lament that no co-ordinated debate has taken place about the political implications and the fall-out of the attacks. 9/11 has been abused by the Bush administration to further unrelated and sweeping agendas to the detriment of the American people.
 
Oystein said:
I go first:

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that 4 civilian airplanes were hijacked and intentionally flown into 3 buildings. One crashed near Shanksville.

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that all the physical damage and loss of life on that day were a result of the plane crashes and the fires they started. No bombs, no additional incendiaries, no controlled demolition

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that the hijackers commaded the cockpits and flew the planes. No remote control.

About flights 11, 175 and 77, I have nothing additional to say.
I am certain, but allow residual doubt, that flight 93 crashed because its passengers resisted and violently iterferred, thus making the hijacker-pilot lose control and crash. No shoot-down to be sure....
Click to expand...
Fully my opinions on those matters.

On the remaining matters I am in broad agreement with the "situation" assessment parts of the statements but not as firmly decided on the "reason" parts.

I can give more detailed explanations later if it seems appropriate. For information I am a British born Australian citizen with civil/structural engineering qualifications and military engineering/demolitions training.
 
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Oystein said:
I go first:

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that 4 civilian airplanes were hijacked and intentionally flown into 3 buildings. One crashed near Shanksville.

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that all the physical damage and loss of life on that day were a result of the plane crashes and the fires they started. No bombs, no additional incendiaries, no controlled demolition

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that the hijackers commaded the cockpits and flew the planes. No remote control.

About flights 11, 175 and 77, I have nothing additional to say.
I am certain, but allow residual doubt, that flight 93 crashed because its passengers resisted and violently iterferred, thus making the hijacker-pilot lose control and crash. No shoot-down to be sure.

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that the hijackings caught FAA and the military units that were on alert to defend the airspace by surprise, that they did everything they could to handle the situation, but were unable to do anything about the 4 planes. The main reasons for this inability were: Too little time; no contingency plans for such situations, resources too thinly spread; inadequate sharing of information between civilian and military agencies due to inadequate or incompatible technology.

I am fairly certain that some agencies of the US goverment had in their possession information that, if assembled and interpreted lucidly ahead of time, might have enabled them to intervene and bust the terrorists before 9/11. I can't judge fairly if the failure to do so is due to avoidable incompetence, or if the odds of finding such information in a sea of data are just prohibitively slim. I do not believe that anyone in these agencies knew of the plan and consciously decided not to interfere. I allow for the remote possibility that there are nefarious elements in the agencies who might be so inclined.

I am certain that the hijackers were a group of 19 or 20 Arabs, mostly from Saudi-Arabia, who were recruited by Al Quaeda, had the blessing of OBL. Among their leaders were KSM and Mohammed Atta. I admit that there is a little wiggle room for doubt, as KSM was abducted in secrecy and tortured. I want to take information presented by secret services with a good grain of salt.

I believe the suicide terrorists were personally motivated mainly by a general feeling of hatred and powerlessness towards the USA and the secualar west. Grievances in connection with the situation in Palestine, and other middle-eastern issues may also individually have placed a role. They were mostly devout muslims of a radical provenance who believed the preaching that they will go to paradise if killed in action against non-believers.

I believe OBL and Al Quaeda hoped to lure the USA into a violent and costly reaction. Secondary goals may have been to gain prestige and attract recruits and other support from muslims around the world, position Al Quaeda as the leading islamist resistance group, or stir up popular uprisings in Arab lands against regimes that Al Quaeda opposes (the monarchies of Saudi-Arabia and Jordan for example, or the Israeli occupations).

I am satisfied with the forensic investigations. They were humongous tasks, had do dive deep into unknown territories, and by and large the efforts were carried out honestly, competently and with sufficient thoroughness. With hindsight, some minor weaknesses may be lamented, such as the failure to investigate WTC7 with the same diligence as WTC1 and 2 were. It is my understanding that the debris of the twin towers was investigated more thoroughly, which undoubtfully is due to its containing so many human remains. There is no foul play.

I think the 9/11 Commission did a great job.

I believe the government, and some agencies thereof, have been too hesitant to allow reviews of their roles in desaster management and preparedness.

I lament that no co-ordinated debate has taken place about the political implications and the fall-out of the attacks. 9/11 has been abused by the Bush administration to further unrelated and sweeping agendas to the detriment of the American people.
Click to expand...

I agree with every word, except the highlighted portion.

Based on the CVR transcripts, I believe the hijackers intentionally steered FL93 into the ground to prevent the passengers from taking back control over the plane.

A minor detail...but a non-shootdown none the less.
 
1) 19 crazy religious nuts with a political agenda.
2) 4 airliners.
3) Nearly 3,000 casualties.
4) Lots of structural damage due to airliner impacts and fire.

Why? Blowback. Meddling in the affairs of others can have consequences. Did we deserve it? No. Should we have been wondering why they hate us? Of course not. We should know exactly why they hate us.

If we had a policy of non-intervention and simply humanitarian aid to the middle east, it's unlikely that 9/11 or similar attacks would have happened. At least not with the same severity, frequency and acceptance by some (small number of) Muslims.
 
Oystein said:
- 4 civilian planes - real? hijacked? remote controlled? crashed where?
Click to expand...
Hijacked by 19 Islamic militants
- Twin Towers - plane crashes? Cause of collapse?
Click to expand...
Fire damage compounded by significant impact damage and the long span construction of the structures.
- WTC7 - cause of collapse?
Click to expand...
Fire damage compounded by several specifics of the structure's design.
- Pentagon - plane crash? Missile?
Click to expand...
Plane crash
- Shanksville - plane? Shot down?
Click to expand...
Crashed jetliner
- If Al Quaeda: Do they hate our freedom? Mindless killers? Is it about Israel? Did they want the wars?
Click to expand...
It was Al-Qada's oft stated plan to rid the Islamic Holy Land of western, non-Islamic influences.
- What about the investigations? 9/11 Commission? NIST? FEMA? FBI? Need a new one? if so, what objectives? Who should chair it?
Click to expand...
NIST could go into greater detail about some specifics (ie. did a floor girder get pushed off its col 79 seat by thermal expansion or pulled off during contraction in WTC 7) But is it worth the added expense? IMO, no.
 
willhaven said:
If we had a policy of non-intervention and simply humanitarian aid to the middle east, it's unlikely that 9/11 or similar attacks would have happened.
Click to expand...

First off, I agree with most of what others posted already. No big changes need to be addressed.

Considering the whole reason OBL hated the US was for being on Saudi soil, and not his fighters for hire (got his widdle feelings hurt). While all we were doing was helping out Kuwait, and keeping Saddam from even thinking about entering the House of Saud Kingdom. F-him, we did what we should have done!

Sorry broke rule one!
 
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I agree with what's been said too.

Why do I think that's what happened? Because we need to keep the reality that events transpired & were caused by terrorists. And also to keep those retarded Truthers at bay, with evidence to prove them wrong at every turn.
 
Dog Town said:
First off, I agree with most of what others posted already. No big changes need to be addressed.

Considering the whole reason OBL hated the US was for being on Saudi soil, and not his fighters for hire (got his widdle feelings hurt). While all we were doing was helping out Kuwait, and keeping Saddam from even thinking about entering the House of Saud Kingdom. F-him, we did what we should have done!

Sorry broke rule one!
Click to expand...

What he/she said.

Osama - anytime you want to have a policy debate, I have a lovely softball bat with your name on it waiting
 
Oystein said:
I go first:

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that 4 civilian airplanes were hijacked and intentionally flown into 3 buildings. One crashed near Shanksville.

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that all the physical damage and loss of life on that day were a result of the plane crashes and the fires they started. No bombs, no additional incendiaries, no controlled demolition

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that the hijackers commaded the cockpits and flew the planes. No remote control.

About flights 11, 175 and 77, I have nothing additional to say.
I am certain, but allow residual doubt, that flight 93 crashed because its passengers resisted and violently iterferred, thus making the hijacker-pilot lose control and crash. No shoot-down to be sure.

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that the hijackings caught FAA and the military units that were on alert to defend the airspace by surprise, that they did everything they could to handle the situation, but were unable to do anything about the 4 planes. The main reasons for this inability were: Too little time; no contingency plans for such situations, resources too thinly spread; inadequate sharing of information between civilian and military agencies due to inadequate or incompatible technology.

I am fairly certain that some agencies of the US goverment had in their possession information that, if assembled and interpreted lucidly ahead of time, might have enabled them to intervene and bust the terrorists before 9/11. I can't judge fairly if the failure to do so is due to avoidable incompetence, or if the odds of finding such information in a sea of data are just prohibitively slim. I do not believe that anyone in these agencies knew of the plan and consciously decided not to interfere. I allow for the remote possibility that there are nefarious elements in the agencies who might be so inclined.

I am certain that the hijackers were a group of 19 or 20 Arabs, mostly from Saudi-Arabia, who were recruited by Al Quaeda, had the blessing of OBL. Among their leaders were KSM and Mohammed Atta. I admit that there is a little wiggle room for doubt, as KSM was abducted in secrecy and tortured. I want to take information presented by secret services with a good grain of salt.

I believe the suicide terrorists were personally motivated mainly by a general feeling of hatred and powerlessness towards the USA and the secualar west. Grievances in connection with the situation in Palestine, and other middle-eastern issues may also individually have placed a role. They were mostly devout muslims of a radical provenance who believed the preaching that they will go to paradise if killed in action against non-believers.

I believe OBL and Al Quaeda hoped to lure the USA into a violent and costly reaction. Secondary goals may have been to gain prestige and attract recruits and other support from muslims around the world, position Al Quaeda as the leading islamist resistance group, or stir up popular uprisings in Arab lands against regimes that Al Quaeda opposes (the monarchies of Saudi-Arabia and Jordan for example, or the Israeli occupations).

I am satisfied with the forensic investigations. They were humongous tasks, had do dive deep into unknown territories, and by and large the efforts were carried out honestly, competently and with sufficient thoroughness. With hindsight, some minor weaknesses may be lamented, such as the failure to investigate WTC7 with the same diligence as WTC1 and 2 were. It is my understanding that the debris of the twin towers was investigated more thoroughly, which undoubtfully is due to its containing so many human remains. There is no foul play.

I think the 9/11 Commission did a great job.

I believe the government, and some agencies thereof, have been too hesitant to allow reviews of their roles in desaster management and preparedness.

I lament that no co-ordinated debate has taken place about the political implications and the fall-out of the attacks. 9/11 has been abused by the Bush administration to further unrelated and sweeping agendas to the detriment of the American people.
Click to expand...

Yep
 
4 planes were holograms

Super nanothermite was planted in WTC 1 & 2 when it was built.

WTC-7 was rigged to explode when the.....


Oh, I can't even type this stuff as a joke. It's so absurd it makes my brain hurt.



I agree with Oystein
 
Oystein said:
I go first:

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that 4 civilian airplanes were hijacked and intentionally flown into 3 buildings. One crashed near Shanksville.

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that all the physical damage and loss of life on that day were a result of the plane crashes and the fires they started. No bombs, no additional incendiaries, no controlled demolition

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that the hijackers commaded the cockpits and flew the planes. No remote control.

About flights 11, 175 and 77, I have nothing additional to say.
I am certain, but allow residual doubt, that flight 93 crashed because its passengers resisted and violently iterferred, thus making the hijacker-pilot lose control and crash. No shoot-down to be sure.

I am convinced, and have no doubt, that the hijackings caught FAA and the military units that were on alert to defend the airspace by surprise, that they did everything they could to handle the situation, but were unable to do anything about the 4 planes. The main reasons for this inability were: Too little time; no contingency plans for such situations, resources too thinly spread; inadequate sharing of information between civilian and military agencies due to inadequate or incompatible technology.

I am fairly certain that some agencies of the US goverment had in their possession information that, if assembled and interpreted lucidly ahead of time, might have enabled them to intervene and bust the terrorists before 9/11. I can't judge fairly if the failure to do so is due to avoidable incompetence, or if the odds of finding such information in a sea of data are just prohibitively slim. I do not believe that anyone in these agencies knew of the plan and consciously decided not to interfere. I allow for the remote possibility that there are nefarious elements in the agencies who might be so inclined.

I am certain that the hijackers were a group of 19 or 20 Arabs, mostly from Saudi-Arabia, who were recruited by Al Quaeda, had the blessing of OBL. Among their leaders were KSM and Mohammed Atta. I admit that there is a little wiggle room for doubt, as KSM was abducted in secrecy and tortured. I want to take information presented by secret services with a good grain of salt.

I believe the suicide terrorists were personally motivated mainly by a general feeling of hatred and powerlessness towards the USA and the secualar west. Grievances in connection with the situation in Palestine, and other middle-eastern issues may also individually have placed a role. They were mostly devout muslims of a radical provenance who believed the preaching that they will go to paradise if killed in action against non-believers.

I believe OBL and Al Quaeda hoped to lure the USA into a violent and costly reaction. Secondary goals may have been to gain prestige and attract recruits and other support from muslims around the world, position Al Quaeda as the leading islamist resistance group, or stir up popular uprisings in Arab lands against regimes that Al Quaeda opposes (the monarchies of Saudi-Arabia and Jordan for example, or the Israeli occupations).

I am satisfied with the forensic investigations. They were humongous tasks, had do dive deep into unknown territories, and by and large the efforts were carried out honestly, competently and with sufficient thoroughness. With hindsight, some minor weaknesses may be lamented, such as the failure to investigate WTC7 with the same diligence as WTC1 and 2 were. It is my understanding that the debris of the twin towers was investigated more thoroughly, which undoubtfully is due to its containing so many human remains. There is no foul play.

I think the 9/11 Commission did a great job.

I believe the government, and some agencies thereof, have been too hesitant to allow reviews of their roles in desaster management and preparedness.

I lament that no co-ordinated debate has taken place about the political implications and the fall-out of the attacks. 9/11 has been abused by the Bush administration to further unrelated and sweeping agendas to the detriment of the American people.
Click to expand...
Dog Town said:
First off, I agree with most of what others posted already. No big changes need to be addressed.

Considering the whole reason OBL hated the US was for being on Saudi soil, and not his fighters for hire (got his widdle feelings hurt). While all we were doing was helping out Kuwait, and keeping Saddam from even thinking about entering the House of Saud Kingdom. F-him, we did what we should have done!

Sorry broke rule one!
Click to expand...

Dittos (not breakin rule 1).

EDIT I meant Oysteins rule 1. Only in a world run by truthers would saying the above be a criminal matter.
 
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i dunno nuttin less i sees it wit me own eyes...cause everyone else is tellin me lies!!!

Wait...was that a black helicopter.

TAM;)
 
Nineteen religious whackadoodles went kamikaze and the people who were supposed to have defended against it got caught with their pants down and serious design problems with a few high-rise buildings were revealed in the resulting fires.

The resulting destruction pushed a few sociopaths over the edge and caused such wide-spread PTSD that utterly absurd behavior and ideation became almost normal.
 
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