Merged Continuation - Feminist Bullies Tearing the Video Game Industry Apart Part II

[cntdrv55]

I don't think that's true. It appears to be a GamerGate meme.

Well then you would be wrong.

 

[cntdrv55]

I hate to personalize it to that degree, but yeah. I'm pretty floored by the sudden and nasty injection of transphobia and straight-up lying. As if this issue wasn't already contentious enough. So yeah, I guess your quote is what I'm saying.

Honestly, I've been on the outskirts of this kerfuffle the whole time. I have some RL gamer friends who are all fired up about GamerGate (on both sides), and so I hear a lot about it. Every time I've tried to join this thread in any capacity, I've gotten my head bitten off. And I understand why. New people who show up and ask questions ("just asking questions") are met with suspicion in discussions like this. But the result of all this is, I've mostly been on the fence. I see nastiness, drama, and hyperbole on both sides.

But lately, I've begun to lean more toward supporting anti-GG. Yeah, they may engage in their share of histrionics, obfuscation, othering, and similar ******** I don't appreciate. But the other side is worse. That is undeniable. I'm not familiar with the timeline, I'm not on Twitter, I don't know if this *********** mess really did begin because some dudes were concerned about ethics in gaming journalism. But it ain't about that anymore. It's about hate, punishment, discrimination, and ugliness. And this "Wu is trans" meme is just the icing on the **** cake for me.

Shame on anybody who spreads that BS. As if someone being trans means a damn thing anyway. Even if she were, so what? That should be no different than saying someone was born blonde and dyes his/her hair. Seriously. It's disgusting that people believe "she's trans" to be viable slander in 2015. It's absolutely disgusting. As is doxxing of ANYBODY, and all the rest. (No one "deserves" that, certainly not over some internet blowup about gaming, for chrissakes. People need to really get a grip here.)

My staunchly GamerGate-supporting RL friend who was posting in this thread earlier is going to be pissed when he reads this, but I don't care. One "side" is definitely behaving more badly than the other at this point. Someone would have to be either utterly blind or dishonest to deny that.

 

[Butter!]

I'm still not convinced your "evidence" is reflective of reality, but it's not important, because I don't much care if Wu was born a turtle.

Why don't you go ahead and explain again why it matters to your cause (which, if you recall, is supposed to be ethics in gaming journalism) what genitalia she was born with?

 

[Butter!]

[qimg]http://giant.gfycat.com/ElegantJoyfulAntarcticfurseal.gif[/qimg]

Hahaha, oh wow. And now we see the level of intellectualism we're dealing with here.

Well anti-GG kids, it's official. I'm one of you now.

There's flawed logic and bad behavior on both sides, as is almost always the case with large enough social movements or protests, but at the end of the day... I'm going to favor the side that doesn't threaten to rape people and act like being transgender is some kind of disease.

 

[cntdrv55]

I'm still not convinced your "evidence" is reflective of reality, but it's not important, because I don't much care if Wu was born a turtle.

Why don't you go ahead and explain again why it matters to your cause (which, if you recall, is supposed to be ethics in gaming journalism) what genitalia she was born with?

It doesn't really matter. Somebody asked for proof and I posted it. As for why it was brought up in the first place, he is constantly mentioned in these discussions because of his self insertion and constant cage rattling. It is important to point out that this person is mentally ill and is an enormous hypocrite with all of his "down with the privileged white male" BS, when he is in fact a white male playing dress up and was given everything by his parents.

That is all.

 

[Butter!]

It doesn't really matter. Somebody asked for proof and I posted it. As for why it was brought up in the first place, he is constantly mentioned in these discussions because of his self insertion and constant cage rattling. It is important to point out that this person is mentally ill and is an enormous hypocrite with all of his "down with the privileged white male" BS, when he is in fact a white male playing dress up and was given everything by his parents.

That is all.

Transwomen are not men. If you believe they are, well, no wonder you think all this GamerGate behavior is just fine. Your version of reality is quite different other people's, and not for the better.

Ethics in gaming journalism, indeed.

 

[Cleon]

I suppose transphobia can now be added to the list of things it's unfair to criticize GamerGate for.

 

[cntdrv55]

Transwomen are not men. If you believe they are, well, no wonder you think all this GamerGate behavior is just fine. Your version of reality is quite different other people's, and not for the better.

Ethics in gaming journalism, indeed.

You'll fit in well as an aGGro, freshly converted and already completely ignoring the point of the post, jumping on me personally, then attributing it to the group as a whole.

Flawless demonstration.

 

[Butter!]

You'll fit in well as an aGGro, freshly converted and already completely ignoring the point of the post, jumping on me personally, then attributing it to the group as a whole.

Flawless demonstration.

Well, converted is a strong word. I think you're all behaving like children.

It's just that I prefer children who aren't also bigots.

The "group as whole?" Who exactly would that be? Seems way too nebulous to even classify. A more accurate statement would be that I criticize any member of any group who spreads that "Wu is trans" meme as if it somehow discredits her or makes harassment okay. Right down to the childish Austin Powers graphic, your post deserved nothing but scorn.

As for attacking you personally, I don't know you personally. All I know is most of what you've posted since we've been interacting in this thread has been obnoxious, deliberately inflammatory, and best of all, completely irrelevant to ethics in gaming journalism. So yeah, so far, I haven't much enjoyed talking with you and doubt you're a person I would enjoy in real life. If that's "jumping on you," then so be it. Your points are weak, your logic rooted in bigotry, and your whole objective seems to be pissing people off (like when you "tl;dr"'d a post of mine that was directed to Belz... and not you). If you're interested in honest discussion, be less abominable.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Hahaha, oh wow. And now we see the level of intellectualism we're dealing with here.

Well anti-GG kids, it's official. I'm one of you now.

There's flawed logic and bad behavior on both sides, as is almost always the case with large enough social movements or protests, but at the end of the day... I'm going to favor the side that doesn't threaten to rape people and act like being transgender is some kind of disease.

On one hand, because one gator posts some false or offensive things doesn't prove the entire movement is bad.

On the other hand, after you deal with enough gators you do notice the same kind of trends you see in 9/11 deniers and other groups of self-selecting cult-like groups when it comes to their reasoning strategies, ability to think critically and ethical stance.

 

[Butter!]

On one hand, because one gator posts some false or offensive things doesn't prove the entire movement is bad.

On the other hand, after you deal with enough gators you do notice the same kind of trends you see in 9/11 deniers and other groups of self-selecting cult-like groups when it comes to their reasoning strategies, ability to think critically and ethical stance.

To be clear, my statement of having "gone over" was mostly based in levity. As I stated, I've been a watcher as most of this mess unfolded, so I've seen the many types of characters and behaviors (good and bad) on both sides. I have RL friends on both sides of the issue. I'm not a gamer myself, or a journalist. I really am just a fascinated observer.

However, it's undeniable at this point that a LOT of the worse behavior comes from the gator side. Certainly not from EVERYONE on the gator side. My gator friends to whom I keep referring would never dream of saying such awful things about trans people, for instance. I'd also be stunned (and appalled) if I found out they'd trolled anyone's Twitter or threatened to rape anyone.

Just bear in mind, most of the stuff I say has a tongue-in-cheek aspect. And that transphobic trash really rubbed me the wrong way, as transphobic trash is wont to do.

 

[cntdrv55]

Well, converted is a strong word. I think you're all behaving like children.

It definitely has turned more into a tit for tat thing and I'd have to agree.

It's just that I prefer children who aren't also bigots.

That's cool, but again I fail to see how my personal views on trans people has anything to do with either group. They are my views. Discounting an entire group and "choosing the other side" just because I don't like brianna wu is pretty stupid.

The "group as whole?" Who exactly would that be? Seems way too nebulous to even classify. A more accurate statement would be that I criticize any member of any group who spreads that "Wu is trans" meme as if it somehow discredits her or makes harassment okay. Right down to the childish Austin Powers graphic, your post deserved nothing but scorn.

That's fine. I disagree and think that "her" being trans and a spoiled little baby who was given everything by wealthy parents is perfectly relevant given the BS "she" constantly spreads and supports.

As for attacking you personally, I don't know you personally. All I know is most of what you've posted since we've been interacting in this thread has been obnoxious, deliberately inflammatory, and best of all, completely irrelevant to ethics in gaming journalism.

Cripes. When people ask me for proof or to clarify something I do my best to oblige.

So yeah, so far, I haven't much enjoyed talking with you and doubt you're a person I would enjoy in real life.

Likewise.

If that's "jumping on you," then so be it. Your points are weak, your logic rooted in bigotry, and your whole objective seems to be pissing people off (like when you "tl;dr"'d a post of mine that was directed to Belz... and not you). If you're interested in honest discussion, be less abominable.

Your "reply to Belz" started off directly talking about me, and at least alluded to me in 4 out of the 5 paragraphs.

 

[Butter!]

That's cool, but again I fail to see how my personal views on trans people has anything to do with either group. They are my views. Discounting an entire group and "choosing the other side" just because I don't like brianna wu is pretty stupid.

Oh, please. You know damn well it's not about your personal view on Brianna. A significant portion of GamerGators have apparently started spreading this meme AND acting like it discredits her. I think that is disgusting. And it's just the final straw. I've been disgusted by gator behavior for months. (You are simply a subscriber to the subset who hold and spread this belief about Wu, and I happen to be talking to you. Beyond that, it's not about you.)

I also fail to see how someone coming from wealth disqualifies them from being an activist for various social justices.

I do think there's a lot of "professional victimhood" and such on the anti-GG side. I think there's drama and antics and posturing and troll-baiting. I think people have invented harassment for attention, exaggerated threats, and all the rest. And I find all that annoying and worthy of many eyerolls as well. But it just doesn't quite bug me as much as rape threats and making up ******** about trans people.

Also, as far as I've seen, both sides have engaged in doxxing, and both get equal and gargantuan disgust from me on that. There's just never any excuse for such behavior.

I've already said several times that the "my conversion" thing was a little joke, but like many jokes, it's based on some truth. Namely, that after observing many facets of this fiasco for months, I find the rock of anti-GG somewhat less odious than the hard place of gators.

Your "reply to Belz" started off directly talking about me, and at least alluded to me in 4 out of the 5 paragraphs.

Which you of course would not know unless you did in fact read it, rendering your "argumentum ad gif" somehow even more irritating and pointless.

And finally, learn the difference between "alluding to you" and "alluding to the viewpoint you brought here and are currently representing here."

But if that post was too long for you, I can't imagine you'll make it to the end of this one, so what's the point.

 

[Belz...]

[qimg]http://giant.gfycat.com/ElegantJoyfulAntarcticfurseal.gif[/qimg]

Wow that is some convincing rebuttal.

 

[TeapotCavalry]

If you don't like misogyny and utterly vile human behavior, then you don't like #gamergate. It really is that simple.

If you're against free expression of ideas, fairness and equality, then you're against #gamergate. It really is that simple.

 

[TeapotCavalry]

Yes, you only have the vast majority of games and virtually all AAA titles catering to your tastes, and even have no problem getting major video game developers to redesign the men in a game to be more covered up after you complain about their skimpy costume designs while the only notable woman in a game is still going to be bursting out of her bikini top and short shorts despite complaints.

You missed the point big time. Not disenfranchised by the devs and publishers, but by the media. Gamers (gamergate) and the devs are just fine and dandy. It's the moral busybodies that are harassing and discriminating against both in the name of faux diversity and equality.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies." - C.S. Lewis​

virtually all AAA titles catering to your tastes

Virtually none of the AAA titles are catering to my tastes. Thanks for speaking on my behalf, though.

Unless you're pro-Gamergate, like The Escapist or Ralph Retort.

Nobody views the Ralph Retort as the beacon of ethical journalism, it is liked by GGs, because it's not afraid to challenge to official narrative. Same with Breitbart. The Escapist? How come are they pro? More like neutrals. I guess that means pro, the us vs them mentality kicking in again.

Unless you're a woman or trans

Fact Fail. It's simply false. Also, GG has women and trans supporters. Even if they didn't, it would be false and libelous. I and thousands of others who are pro-GG support and love our fellow human beings regardless of gender or gender identity. The fact that you can make this swooping generalization without batting an eye sheds more light on your bigotry than on the GG.

or think that there should be more games featuring women as playable characters

Fact Fail. No gamergater is against games featuring women as PCs. You're so ignorant of the movement that you don't even know they support more games and more diversity, not less. That's why they've put their money where their mouth is, supporting female game dev initiatives. Something the anti-GG curiopuly lacks in practice. It's because the anti-GG has no other purpose than to, well, be anti GG, hate GG, it's destructive. GG is a constructive movement. It would be ludicrous for me to claim every single pro-GG is a saint, there are obviously bad apples in every large groups, especially in ones that you can be a part of with no qualifications at all. But you'd think one would look at a movement as what the majority does, not what the bad apples do.

and fewer with them as passive sex objects.

This is where I think you are correct. [ETA] It's not a zero sum game. Nothing stops you from making an awesome indie game that will end up selling millions. More X games doesn't have to mean less Y games.[/ETA] We don't want to ban games. Make games with women as passive sex objects, and men as passive sex objects. Let the audience decide which ones stays afloat and which ones sink.

Unless you dare to say mean things about Gamergate or even simply block them on Twitter.

Ok, let's get this straight. Noone's protesting blocking. People are upset that there are lists that paint them as vile individuals, either because some antiGGs disagreed with them or because they followed the wrong people, guilt by association. This is not right. I absolutely don't mind that I'm blocked by people who have zero critical thinking capacities. It's just immensely funny how they're incapable of having a conversation, thinking disagreement is harassment.

Because that's the literal and entire title of his little pile of **** there, not "In defense of rape as a literary device". If he doesn't like people saying things like "James Desborough wrote a piece titled 'In Defense of Rape'", maybe he shouldn't have written a piece titled "In Defense of Rape".

Oh, right. Context doesn't matter. Only whatever sentence can garner the most outrage and offense. RIP skepticism.

<that gif>

I expected nothing less.

 

[TeapotCavalry]

Wu's tweet isn't deleted. It's right here (you can even see it as the tweet the "explain yourself Wu" tweet was made in reply to). And even KiA recognized that this was a dead-end accusation.

+1

There are a few false flags, this seems to be one of them. Always verify.

 

[TeapotCavalry]

Man, trying to sleuth out who's behind all the nonsense and drama, and the truth or falsehood of each accusation and counter-accusation would be a full-time job!

Indeed. It's extremely exhausting to keep up with everything. But if you're just looking for a quick hate-fix or someone to laugh at, depending on which side you're on, nothing beats an ongoing ****-storm like this controversy.

 

[TeapotCavalry]

Wherever do people get the impression that Gamergaters are transphobic?

From radical left bloggers and 'journalists' claiming so without evidence.

You know that referring to a biological male as a 'he' isn't hate, fear or even aversion. It's simply perhaps impolite and frankly irrelevant. I never refer to Brianna as 'he', because I don't think her gender identity has much to do with her inane actions, and if she wants to be referred to as a 'she', so be it. That's just a common politeness AFAIK.

See

While I myself personally think trans people are mentally ill and will never be anything other than the sex they were born as, you can't apply that to an entire group of people that have nothing to do with what I say.

Is that so hard to understand? One would think the transphobic label falsely attached to GG is a deliberate attempt to be blind to nuance and critical thinking. I happen to disagree with cntdrv55 here, but neither of our personal ideas of who trans people are and how to call them reflect on gamergate as a whole. If you read KiA, which I do daily, you will see nothing transphobic in the slightest. And we're pretty much already established KiA is one of the, if not the main hub for GG, haven't we?

And it got her a mention ? Wow, that's quite a win for her, right ?

Honestly, that's a huge win for someone who's completely unknown with a game that barely passes as someone's highscool project.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

We don't want to ban games.

This kind of thing confuses me.

You seem to want to be able to represent gamergate at will, or not represent it at will.

You seem to want to be able to speak for gamergate at will, or not speak for gamergate at will.

You seem to want to be able to declare exactly what gamergate is and isn't at will, but also to deny anyone else's claims about gamergate, because gamergate is everything and nothing.

You seem to want to be able to redefine gamergate's history completely at will, so the discreditable origins and actions of the gamergate community somehow never manage to count against it, because it's different now, or it's someone else, or you never saw me do it, and you can't prove anything, and it could have been a false flag!

Do you see why people tend to think gamergaters are, as a group, dishonest actors who have no interest in open discussion, and who are just repeating whatever talking points they think will best serve them at just that time?