Merged Continuation - Feminist Bullies Tearing the Video Game Industry Apart Part II

[kookbreaker]

Wondered why this was bumped, and apparently there was no reason.

Still a couple of weeks ago there was the article about the harassment Randi Harper recieved. The comments were a combination of 'well, she wasn''t very nice!' and some rather creepy and delusional GG'ers who were of the "Gamergate is constantly growing! More and more game developers are with Gamergate!" cheering. Reminded me of the 'Scientology keeps on expanding and expanding!" posters from back in the 90's.

Ick.

 

[TeapotCavalry]

Still a couple of weeks ago there was the article about the harassment Randi Harper recieved.

And I'm sure they speak nothing of the harassment Randi Harper dishes out. Because **** the facts.

 

[TeapotCavalry]

<snip> #gamergate is a terrorist organisation in a meaningful sense,<snip>
A better analogy for #gamergate would be ISIS, or the IRA, or the KKK.
<snip>

topkek, called it.

Welcome to 1984, where the disenfranchised consumers demanding ethical journalism, inclusivity and freedom of expression are terrorist organisation and a hate group on par with Isis, IRA, KKK.

I still can't believe that someone can be comfortable being so willfully ignorant.

Kevin, throughout this whole thread, you have failed to provide any evidence that GG is misogynistic, or a hate group, let alone terrorist organisation. This is just absurd.

 

[TeapotCavalry]

The issue is that we're not talking about "malicious lies", but honest, if strongly-held opinions.

"Brianna Wu's narcissism is bordering on clinical illness. Others have pointed out she's becoming a danger to herself and others, what with trying to hire thugs for PAX EAst ready to 'crack GG skulls' to protect her from... what? People pointing and laughing at her delusions? As with other crazy SJWs, they're creating an atmosphere of hate and fear for their own personal fame and profit, ironically perpetuating the DiD trope they supposedly so vehemently fight against", for example, is not a malicious lie prosecutable as defamation. I think it's a pack of nonsense and certainly untrue, but I also think that TeapotCavalry fully believes that as his honest opinion of her and isn't deliberately and maliciously spreading falsehoods that he knows are false or anything like that. I suppose that Wu could try to sue him for saying all that, if she really wanted, but I also expect it to get tossed out of court before the ink is even dry on the filing.

The difference here is that my opinion is informed by facts that I can provide to you. The articles she's written and her twitter feed (ETA: and don't forget the video interviews, most notably with David Pakman perhaps) is enough to justify calling her narcissist.

The Pax East thing is also documented, this is not something I'm making up.

Whether hiring fake security (thugs essentially) ready to 'crack gg skulls' is creating a hostile and fearful atmosphere is debatable, but I also think there's reasonable ground to think so.

So, in light of all that, what exactly do you think is untrue or 'a pack of nonsense'? No feely-touchy opinions, facts please.

On the other hand, a list that calls people who follow other people misogynists and 'worst of the worst' simply for following other people, is frankly nonsense of the highest degree. Where are the facts here?

 

[TeapotCavalry]

James "In Defense of Rape" Desborough.

Why the dishonest, out-of-context snipe?

In defense of rape as a literary device

 

[A'isha]

Welcome to 1984, where the disenfranchised consumers

Yes, you only have the vast majority of games and virtually all AAA titles catering to your tastes, and even have no problem getting major video game developers to redesign the men in a game to be more covered up after you complain about their skimpy costume designs while the only notable woman in a game is still going to be bursting out of her bikini top and short shorts despite complaints.

demanding ethical journalism,

Unless you're pro-Gamergate, like The Escapist or Ralph Retort.

inclusivity

Unless you're a woman or trans or think that there should be more games featuring women as playable characters and fewer with them as passive sex objects.

and freedom of expression

Unless you dare to say mean things about Gamergate or even simply block them on Twitter.

 

[A'isha]

Why the dishonest, out-of-context snipe?

In defense of rape as a literary device

Because that's the literal and entire title of his little pile of **** there, not "In defense of rape as a literary device". If he doesn't like people saying things like "James Desborough wrote a piece titled 'In Defense of Rape'", maybe he shouldn't have written a piece titled "In Defense of Rape".

And, far from it being about how no subject no matter how difficult should be off-limits, he said (and I quote verbatim) "Rape or attempted rape is a *********** awesome plot element".

So, harasser and self-centered idiot James "In Defense of Rape" Desborough can go **** himself.

 

[A'isha]

The difference here is that my opinion

[...]

No feely-touchy opinions, facts please.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Because that's the literal and entire title of his little pile of **** there

If you can't respond to a short, simple, straightforward and sensible article without resorting to inarticulate scatology that doesn't convey the message that you have rational criticisms to share.

As far as I can see he's completely right. Rape is a thing that has happened, and does happen, and will continue to happen, and art should have the option of being about things that happen, including bad things. In fact literature that isn't about bad things risks being boring.

There's a nutty fringe movement in feminism that wants to declare rape to be Their Special Sacred Thing, that only they may speak of, and even then only in the specified and appropriate tones. I see no particular reason to respect this demand or those who make it. I think those specific people are not only irrational but do more harm than good to feminism with their self-indulgent, divisive antics.

You can't claim a kind of crime as your special private property.

, not "In defense of rape as a literary device". If he doesn't like people saying things like "James Desborough wrote a piece titled 'In Defense of Rape'", maybe he shouldn't have written a piece titled "In Defense of Rape".

By exactly the same token, if you don't like people saying that your arguments are fundamentally dishonest and rely on deliberate half-truths, maybe you shouldn't have written what you just wrote. Actions have consequences. Intent is not magic, and ideology is not magic, and sex identity is not magic, and none of them excuse this kind of dishonest argument.

And, far from it being about how no subject no matter how difficult should be off-limits, he said (and I quote verbatim) "Rape or attempted rape is a *********** awesome plot element".

So, harasser and self-centered idiot James "In Defense of Rape" Desborough can go **** himself.

By any rational standard murder is worse than rape, yet fiction that relies on constant murders as a plot device seems to be just fine for most people. I can turn on the TV and watch Midsomer Murders or a James Bond movie and they have frequent, gratuitous death as a plot element and fans of that sort of thing think it's *********** awesome. If that's what they enjoy in their fiction, I don't see that as any of my business.

Getting back to the "rape apologist" business, this is why I think those who spread the label "rape apologist" to people like Desborough are morally horrible. You know very well he wrote a piece in defence of the use of fictional rape as a plot device, which is an utterly different thing to defending the real rape of real people, in the same way that defending running around with a flamethrower burning civilians in Grand Theft Auto X is utterly different to defending the My Lai Massacre. Yet you have no moral problem in deliberately attaching a slur to him which carries the clear implication he defended real-world rape. That's morally vile.

 

[Dismalsage]

I seem to remember a time in which feminists proudly proclaimed 'if you think women are human beings, you are one of us!'

The mantra of gamergaters has always been 'we are a grass roots consumer protest against corruption in gaming journalism'

Who could disagree with such tautological claims? Who will say 'women aren't human' or 'i am for corruption in gaming journalism'?

I know exactly how a reasonable feminist reacts to accounts of people threatening, harassing, bullying, or attacking others in the name of feminism: they say "those aren't real feminists. no true feminist would behave in such a way". Bravo!

If you can't hold gamergate to these incredibly lenient standards then it is obvious that you aught not hold any other movement to them either. I despise online harassment. I hate being threatened, and yet somehow I have found a way to not hold an entire movement accountable for the actions of a few. We can either listen to the mission statements of a movement and respect what they want to accomplish, or we can all act like children and dwell on the bad behavior of people who claim to be part of a movement and ignore their mission statement. What kind of person are you?

Every day i hop out of bed and keep treating women like humans in spite of the fact that almost every self proclaimed feminist has done or said something patently anti-male. Are you willing to hop out of bed and say 'collusion and corruption in journalism is a road to disaster' or will you make an exception for gaming journalism because the movement rubbed you the wrong way?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I seem to remember a time in which feminists proudly proclaimed 'if you think women are human beings, you are one of us!'

Actually there have been idiotic and combative feminists since the sixties at the latest, probably earlier. There was never a golden age of feminism when all feminists were paragons of every virtue, nor a fall from grace where the movement as a whole went silly. Just idiots in every generation using feminism as an excuse to pick fights and feel superior, alongside a much larger majority working sensibly for social change.

The mantra of gamergaters has always been 'we are a grass roots consumer protest against corruption in gaming journalism'

Oh please. It started with dogpiling on Zoe Quinn based on unsupported accusations of her using her evil, sexy, sexy powers to do a man wrong and get ahead. It's not that long ago, do you think we have some kind of brain injury that prevents us remembering the recent past?

It expanded to encompass similar attacks on feminist women like Wu and Sarkeesian and this is to this day a very substantial topic of interest even on the "happy face" of gamergate on reddit.

Pretending that gamergate has ever been a grass roots consumer movement as opposed to misogynistic trolls from 4chan pretending to be a consumer rights movement won't get you anywhere around here.

Who could disagree with such tautological claims? Who will say 'women aren't human' or 'i am for corruption in gaming journalism'?

I know exactly how a reasonable feminist reacts to accounts of people threatening, harassing, bullying, or attacking others in the name of feminism: they say "those aren't real feminists. no true feminist would behave in such a way". Bravo!

They're real feminists, but thanks for trying to put words into my mouth. Feminism is a big tent and it has some stupid and nasty people in it. They're still feminists, because there is no central Feminist Authority with the power to grant or withhold membership of the feminist club.

If you can't hold gamergate to these incredibly lenient standards then it is obvious that you aught not hold any other movement to them either.

You might have noticed me calling A'isha on the carpet for the dumb and evil things she has posted. That's because I hold both gamergaters and feminist tumblristas to minimal standards of ethical behaviour, which they frequetly do not meet.

I despise online harassment.

You're a gamergater. That is inconsistent with the above statement.

Every day i hop out of bed and keep treating women like humans in spite of the fact that almost every self proclaimed feminist has done or said something patently anti-male.

No they haven't.

I've found that gamgergaters are usually as ignorant about feminism as they pretend to be about misogynist harassment.

 

[Dismalsage]

I'm not an anything. I can embrace a movement's constructive values without drinking their kool-aid. That was really what i was trying to drive home and encourage others to do. Someone is getting their nomination removed for jumping head first down my throat.

 

[Butter!]

I'm not an anything. I can embrace a movement's constructive values without drinking their kool-aid. That was really what i was trying to drive home and encourage others to do. Someone is getting their nomination removed for jumping head first down my throat.

LOL, I read your post like 4 times trying to discern where exactly you said you were "a gamergater." Couldn't find any such thing. Glad I haven't lost it.

I don't see how your post could possibly have been more innocuous or balanced, but I guess when someone's wielding a big, sexy hammer everything starts to like a nail.

 

[Dismalsage]

I'm gonna go ahead and try to be EVEN MORE clear because i think thats when things get fun:

The era I was talking about- the "agree that women are people? you're a feminist!" talking point was really popular this decade. I wasn't wistfully reminiscing to a golden age when everyone was decent to eachother. I mean, C'mon!

As for gamergate and Zoe Quinn...I really think it depends who you are asking. Former YouTube personality Internet Aristocrat was always really excited to go on and on about the 'Quinnspiracy' and the 'Five Guys'. It was loathsome and I felt bad for the poor deranged point and click misadventurist.

Conversely, YouTube personality Sargon of Akkad wants nothing to do with the Quinn story and I don't blame him. There is plenty of clear evidence of collusion and corruption in gaming journalism without bringing up sex scandals. This is the same person who reports any threats against his opponents to the police, and encourages everyone who calls themselves a gamergater to do the same. Like him, I just want to be able to read a game review and trust the source before I spend my hard earned money on something that isn't even a game. That's a legitimate concern, isn't it?

This is a multi-billion dollar industry and many interested parties are vying for control of it, or a slice of the pie, under the guise of equality and justice and accessibility to the downtrodden and all those heroic sounding things. I'm sure I'm not telling anyone anything they didn't know, but isn't that worth making some noise about? Now if only there were a way to do it without threats and harassment...

I laughed when I was accused of putting words in your mouth about how the "good feminists" like to no-true-scotsman their way out of criticism -- I don't know what you consider yourself or what your position is, so how could I put words in your mouth? That is touchy! And then you give me the classic "feminism isn't a monolith." spiel. Ya I get it, trust me. You hold gamergaters to higher standards when you say that I am one-therefore i am ok with online harassment. Tell me if this sounds familiar: "gamergate doesn't have a Central Authority that can revoke your gamergate card. gamergate is a big tent with some stupid and nasty people in it" Not telling you anything you don't know, am I?

I really thought this would be the forum to constructively discuss censorship and journalism in gaming, but I was wrong! Instead I am reading the same tired crap I would read on facebook, phrased in the most defensive and pedestrian way. What a pity!

 

[Babbylonian]

As for gamergate and Zoe Quinn...I really think it depends who you are asking.

How did #gamergate start?

If you don't like misogyny and utterly vile human behavior, then you don't like #gamergate. It really is that simple. If you want to have a conversation about censorship and journalism in gaming, #gamergate is not the way to do it and associating yourself (the generic "you") with it means picking up a ton of baggage that will always be associated with #gamergate. Maybe some people aren't aware that there are other hashtags in the world? Or other ways to start [productive] conversations?

I really thought this would be the forum to constructively discuss censorship and journalism in gaming, but I was wrong! Instead I am reading the same tired crap I would read on facebook, phrased in the most defensive and pedestrian way. What a pity!

Forgive me, but if you really wanted to discuss "censorship and journalism in gaming," how did you end up at this thread? The title of it has nothing to do with either.

 

[Dismalsage]

is there a more productive thread with a less accusatory title in this forum somewhere?

 

[Butter!]

How did #gamergate start?

If you don't like misogyny and utterly vile human behavior, then you don't like #gamergate. It really is that simple. If you want to have a conversation about censorship and journalism in gaming, #gamergate is not the way to do it and associating yourself (the generic "you") with it means picking up a ton of baggage that will always be associated with #gamergate. Maybe some people aren't aware that there are other hashtags in the world? Or other ways to start [productive] conversations?

Forgive me, but if you really wanted to discuss "censorship and journalism in gaming," how did you end up at this thread? The title of it has nothing to do with either.

I told him this was the thread where that discussion was happening, that's how.

I also said this was a better place for reasoned discussion on the matter than Facebook, or even worse, Tumblr. Y'all are making me a liar though, so far. Attempting to read between the lines of a post for objectionable content that simply isn't there.

 

[Dismalsage]

#gamergate origins, as it had always seemed to me, began with the series of articles being released within a few days that are now collectively known as the "Gamers Are Dead" articles.
Gamers Are Dead is the name given to a collection of articles critical of gamers. These articles were published within the same time period from August 28, 2014 through early September. Each of these articles echoed a narrative; that the "gamer" identity or culture was dead. These articles heavily implied the "gamer" identity had been killed by sexism and misogyny. The articles which inspired the most backlash were from gaming websites themselves for their implication of a dismissive attitude towards these publications' primary audience. It is suspected by many that, due to the timing of these articles, both in the quick succession of which they were released and in the midst of an unresolved scandal, the articles were an act of collusion. Their impact caused the GamerGate consumer revolt to become much larger and more determined in its effort to expose impropriety in gaming journalism.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Their impact caused the GamerGate consumer revolt to become much larger and more determined in its effort to expose impropriety in gaming journalism.

They have a funny way of going about it...

 

[Dismalsage]

Yes, I agree and I wonder how everyone interested in this will move forward while simultaneously leaving behind all the keyboard terrorists. I mean everybody who reads video game reviews/buys games probably doesn't like bad or dishonest journalism, so some percentage of those people are undisciplined and angry enough to get baited into threatening the very people who thrive off of their anger and use it as proof that things need to change...so how do we do it? How do we leave those people out of the conversation.

Maybe they'll be really considerate and start calling themselves the online threatening jerks movement, but i don't think anyone wants to think of themselves as that, even for descriptive purposes.

It is some kind of phenomenon: when misogyny is the problem being discussed, you will always find some contempt for feminists, and then they will always conflate that with misogyny and use it to prove their point and excuse the bad behavior of the people helping them (the gaming journalists in this case) until nobody can complain about their hobby getting dragged through the mud because "you're on the side of those misogynists". Don't tell me I'm the only one who notices this!