Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

Over on the .nut asylum one inmate has come up with a detailed time line from 1800 hrs to 0400 hrs on 1/2 Nov.
Beggars belief!

I stopped visit in the nutter sites a long long time ago. I prefer people capable of rational thought. Seriously, most of them are incapable of any logic that might prove that they are wrong about anything.

Someone there floated an "ethnic cleansing" motive. Aside from the fact that neither AK nor RS were at all involved - so says Italy - someone at .NUT sees the murder as an ethnic cleanse.

 

[Grinder]

Here's part of the time line from .net with my few comments in bold:

18:00-20:00 K and S walk the town; perhaps they meet G and K hatches plan to invite G for a 'party'; possible that K and S have discussed playing a prank on M; possible that K and S have fantasized about raping and killing someone
I thought AK was alone I wonder if she and other boyfriends discussed the same

20:15 K leaves S apartment to perhaps quit her job with L so she and S can carry out prank anyway.
20:18 L sends message to K she is not needed; K likely returns to S apartment.
20:40 K responds to L.

She didn't want to quit by text? Why did she want to quit?
20:45 Popovic sees K at S apartment.

20:50 K leaves to find G at p. Grimana; perhaps K takes G to cottage and 'hires' him to be part of prank, steal M's money, take 50 euros for drug money, give G 250 euros, leaves G there to aggravate M and goes to get drugs and S.

She goes to the plaza, finds G, makes the deal and makes to the cottage 10 minutes after Popovich leaves...hmmmm

20:55 M returns to cottage and finds G; M gets aggravated but hosts G; M discovers her money is missing; G follows M around apartment as M hunts for her money; M leaves fingerprint on K's wardrobe.
21:00 K perhaps seen at garage.
21:00-21:20 K perhaps waits to get drugs and then picks up S at apartment; they may take drugs; they go to cottage.

She is fast back to Raf's, take drugs (non found in system by PLE) and back to cottage by 21:20
21:00-21:20 M upset at K; M may recount to G about her mom's health.

She graciously hosts G, she calmly hunts for money but in the middle of all this tells G about her Mum - she is the saint.

21:20-21:50 K and S arrive at cottage; fight starts between K and M over money; planned prank turns into assault; K, S and G assault M; K and S restrain M while G rapes her; K chokes M to unconsciousness. They may think M is dead or in coma.

Yes pranks turns to rape and murder, why not

21:50-22:15 K, S and G somehow immobilize M with clothing, pillowcase, bedsheet and duvet; K takes M's bedroom keys and phones; locks door; K and S order G to stand guard; K and S get to p. Grimana and are seen by Curatolo. K plays with M's phones. K and S may discuss having G take all the blame and/or conclude to kidnap M, take her out of the cottage and kill her elsewhere.

One major problem - Curatolo saw them at 9:30 (21:30) and he was sure because he had a watch which he showed the court - oh well

22:15-22:30 K goes to S to get kitchen knife; S gets car and parks at cottage gate.

Of course she would want to use a knife from the cottage

22:30-22:40 K and S return to p. Grimana and await car breakdown to clear. They are seen by Curatolo.

Curatolo saw them every time he looked up - how lucky they could be gone for 15 -25 minutes and not be noticed

21:50-22:40 G at the cottage, decides to use bathroom. M may regain consciousness and start banging on walls and/or door, startling G. G runs to p. Grimana, bumps into Formica's boyfriend, to alert K and S that M is awake.

Is this when Koko saw them?

22:40-23:00 K and S tell G to go back to cottage and wait for them while car breakdown clears, that they will kidnap M and kill elsewhere. G accepts to follow along. G gets back to cottage without being noticed by car breakdown people. Curatolo sees K and S still at p. Grimana.
23:00-23:15 Tow truck arrives, sees S's car at cottage gate. Leaves at 23:15.
23:20-23:30 G at cottage gate, while K and S, perhaps working up courage to kill M, lie on the road. Kokomani sees them in drive-by skirmish. K and S threaten Kokomani while G offers Kokomani 250 euros to rent car.

Didn't Koko say it was 10:30?

23:30 Curatolo leaves p. Grimana (otherwise he might have heard scream also).

Ah he said he stayed until just before midnight. It was Massei that moved it to 11:30 based on Disco buses that didn't run that night.

23:30-23:45 K, S and G reenter cottage and attempt to kidnap M. M may have gotten partially free and resists, perhaps slapping S. S stabs her. K and S shout at G to help them restrain M or to knock M unconscious again. As they struggle M is able to free her mouth and scream. K stabs her.
23:45-00:10 K and S run out of the cottage, through the parking lot and up metal stairs; G stays behind briefly to staunch blood with towel, then also flees on the gravel path and up the other road. K and S circle back briefly to p. Grimana to check for police to arrive, then when they think coast is clear they go back down to cottage gate to get S's car from cottage gate and leave. K tosses M's phones in Lana's garden as they drive by.
00:10-0:100 K and S return to S apartment to clean up/change clothes.

Just a start

 

[Anode]

...and all of those hours, the pizza remains in her stomach undigested...

 

[Anode]

Hello all. I just logged in, lost my connection and had a time logging in again. Then I see this post from Anode, haha. I have not read here for 3+ weeks and know there is much to catch up on but unfortunately won't be able to do that for a time.

I have, of course, read about the acquittal of Amanda and Raffaele (though I didn't know of it until about a week later). I respect the court's decision, feel it was a wise one and look forward to reading the report when it is published. As with all the decisions (how many were there?) I don't play into conspiracies or corruption unless that is proven (and yes, this also applies to Stefanoni and Mignini). I think there were many different peoples who viewed the evidence and witnesses from their own perspective, the current law, witness reliability, evidence reliability, etc. and applied their decisions using that criteria.

As to what I believe I think that has to be in alliance with the most recent verdict. I ask too many questions always wanting to know more. Some will read into that questioning what they will.

I will ask of all here since I will have limited time to read back posts - What are the 3 main news stories or occurrences concerning the post-acquittal of Amanda and Raffaele (and if you have links that would be wonderful)? Eventually I will have time to reply back but that time isn't in the present.

Well I'm feeling pretty powerful right now. I seem to be able to summon posters at will. Maybe it will work if I mention "RandyN"!

Anyway, good to see you post again. Some of the things that were interesting to me:

1) Maresca "fired" the Kerchers soon after the decision.
2) The Porta a Porta interview posted by MichaelB a ways back in post 2589.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10565004&postcount=2589

But mainly I, and most here, are anxiously awaiting the motivation reports.

 

[Numbers]

I never understood the process when the Supreme Court even before the first trial ruled that the interrogations and statements were not legal and yet the judge still allowed them into the trial by use of the civil suit. If I'm the court, I'm tossing aside both the civil suit and the calumny charge right then because if the interrogation are illegal, there is nothing to support either.

But hey, what do I know?

Yes, that's my opinion, too, that the arrests and trials should never have taken place because there was no legitimate reasonable suspicion (aka probable cause) and there was never any credible evidence. There was primarily a presumption of guilt (because Mignini is apparently skilled at identifying Satanic sex-murder rituals and the witches who necessarily take part because they happen to be young American women).

And if the arrests and trials should never have taken place, the fact that they took nearly eight years suggests that they were of unreasonable length.

 

[Numbers]

The interrogation was thrown out by the ISC IIRC but was inserted into the trial by the civil suit of Lumumba. Perhaps they could weigh in that. I would hope that they would do something about forensic standards in all aspects: collection, transportation and lab work.

Didn't the ISC criticize Hellmann's thinking?

In fact, the Italian judiciary allowed the interrogation statements and Amanda's memoriales 1 and 2 as evidence for the criminal charge of calunnia, based on a decision from years back by CSC that spontaneous statements can lead to conviction of calunnia.

The interrogation statements and memoriales were supposedly not to be used as evidence relating to the rape/murder charge, except apparently when it was convenient to osmotically include them, as suggested by the CSC Chieffi panel in annulling the Hellmann acquital and as Nencini convicted.

Criticize the Italian judicial system as one may, one must admit it shows a certain incredible (that is, unbelievable) flexibility.

 

[Grinder]

...and all of those hours, the pizza remains in her stomach undigested...

While I never thought the digestive evidence proved she was killed immediately on returning, I certainly never bought a TOD after 10pm (22:00). What makes your point more interesting is that they accept Lalli's TOD range and all other of his findings but reject or ignore the digestive findings.

AFAIK the PGP have never even discussed the drink or two equivalent Lalli found in Mez' system at death but I'm guessing they would agree with many here that she didn't have it her system.

 

[lonepinealex]

Have they started into conspiratorializing the exonerations? Where has Machiavelli ended up?

I don't read the guilter sites (too many animated smilies turns me off before I even get over the threshold), but I'm getting the impression from platonov's drive bys and the odd newspaper comment that they are indeed putting on the tinfoil hats. I think the main two theories are that either the Sollecitos paid off the judges or the US State Department leaned on the Italian authorities.

 

[Grinder]

I don't read the guilter sites (too many animated smilies turns me off before I even get over the threshold), but I'm getting the impression from platonov's drive bys and the odd newspaper comment that they are indeed putting on the tinfoil hats. I think the main two theories are that either the Sollecitos paid off the judges or the US State Department leaned on the Italian authorities.

Couldn't agree more. There is no question that it had to be corruption.

 

[Planigale]

Here's part of the time line from .net with my few comments in bold:

Quote:
18:00-20:00 K and S walk the town; perhaps they meet G and K hatches plan to invite G for a 'party'; possible that K and S have discussed playing a prank on M; possible that K and S have fantasized about raping and killing someone
I thought AK was alone I wonder if she and other boyfriends discussed the same

20:15 K leaves S apartment to perhaps quit her job with L so she and S can carry out prank anyway.
20:18 L sends message to K she is not needed; K likely returns to S apartment.
20:40 K responds to L.

She didn't want to quit by text? Why did she want to quit?
20:45 Popovic sees K at S apartment.

20:50 K leaves to find G at p. Grimana; perhaps K takes G to cottage and 'hires' him to be part of prank, steal M's money, take 50 euros for drug money, give G 250 euros, leaves G there to aggravate M and goes to get drugs and S.

She goes to the plaza, finds G, makes the deal and makes to the cottage 10 minutes after Popovich leaves...hmmmm

20:55 M returns to cottage and finds G; M gets aggravated but hosts G; M discovers her money is missing; G follows M around apartment as M hunts for her money; M leaves fingerprint on K's wardrobe.
21:00 K perhaps seen at garage.
21:00-21:20 K perhaps waits to get drugs and then picks up S at apartment; they may take drugs; they go to cottage.

She is fast back to Raf's, take drugs (non found in system by PLE) and back to cottage by 21:20
21:00-21:20 M upset at K; M may recount to G about her mom's health.

She graciously hosts G, she calmly hunts for money but in the middle of all this tells G about her Mum - she is the saint.

21:20-21:50 K and S arrive at cottage; fight starts between K and M over money; planned prank turns into assault; K, S and G assault M; K and S restrain M while G rapes her; K chokes M to unconsciousness. They may think M is dead or in coma.

Yes pranks turns to rape and murder, why not

21:50-22:15 K, S and G somehow immobilize M with clothing, pillowcase, bedsheet and duvet; K takes M's bedroom keys and phones; locks door; K and S order G to stand guard; K and S get to p. Grimana and are seen by Curatolo. K plays with M's phones. K and S may discuss having G take all the blame and/or conclude to kidnap M, take her out of the cottage and kill her elsewhere.

One major problem - Curatolo saw them at 9:30 (21:30) and he was sure because he had a watch which he showed the court - oh well

22:15-22:30 K goes to S to get kitchen knife; S gets car and parks at cottage gate.

Of course she would want to use a knife from the cottage

22:30-22:40 K and S return to p. Grimana and await car breakdown to clear. They are seen by Curatolo.

Curatolo saw them every time he looked up - how lucky they could be gone for 15 -25 minutes and not be noticed

21:50-22:40 G at the cottage, decides to use bathroom. M may regain consciousness and start banging on walls and/or door, startling G. G runs to p. Grimana, bumps into Formica's boyfriend, to alert K and S that M is awake.

Is this when Koko saw them?

22:40-23:00 K and S tell G to go back to cottage and wait for them while car breakdown clears, that they will kidnap M and kill elsewhere. G accepts to follow along. G gets back to cottage without being noticed by car breakdown people. Curatolo sees K and S still at p. Grimana.
23:00-23:15 Tow truck arrives, sees S's car at cottage gate. Leaves at 23:15.
23:20-23:30 G at cottage gate, while K and S, perhaps working up courage to kill M, lie on the road. Kokomani sees them in drive-by skirmish. K and S threaten Kokomani while G offers Kokomani 250 euros to rent car.

Didn't Koko say it was 10:30?

23:30 Curatolo leaves p. Grimana (otherwise he might have heard scream also).

Ah he said he stayed until just before midnight. It was Massei that moved it to 11:30 based on Disco buses that didn't run that night.

23:30-23:45 K, S and G reenter cottage and attempt to kidnap M. M may have gotten partially free and resists, perhaps slapping S. S stabs her. K and S shout at G to help them restrain M or to knock M unconscious again. As they struggle M is able to free her mouth and scream. K stabs her.
23:45-00:10 K and S run out of the cottage, through the parking lot and up metal stairs; G stays behind briefly to staunch blood with towel, then also flees on the gravel path and up the other road. K and S circle back briefly to p. Grimana to check for police to arrive, then when they think coast is clear they go back down to cottage gate to get S's car from cottage gate and leave. K tosses M's phones in Lana's garden as they drive by.
00:10-0:100 K and S return to S apartment to clean up/change clothes.



Just a start

If MK was tied up one would expect to have found forensic evidence of this.

If they are suggesting that the failed call to Abbey was by Knox from the square, do the phone details match? Would the phone have connected to the right relays?

I never understood the enthusiasm for Curatalo. He does not place either of them at the scene. He restricts the time that the crime could have been carried out in. If they ignored him then there remains no third party alibi for Knox and Sollecito but they no longer have to be in the square at 21.30 and around midnight and various times in between.

 

[acbytesla]

Yes, that's my opinion, too, that the arrests and trials should never have taken place because there was no legitimate reasonable suspicion (aka probable cause) and there was never any credible evidence. There was primarily a presumption of guilt (because Mignini is apparently skilled at identifying Satanic sex-murder rituals and the witches who necessarily take part because they happen to be young American women).

And if the arrests and trials should never have taken place, the fact that they took nearly eight years suggests that they were of unreasonable length.

I guess the fruit of the poisonous tree concept isn't acknowledged ineed Italy.

 

[anglolawyer]

[qimg]http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hello/gentleman-smiley-emoticon.gif[/qimg]

Couldn't agree more. There is no question that it had to be corruption.

Oh, I was going to add that to my sig but you are being ironic about the PGPs rather than characterising the prosecution, so ...

 

[Numbers]

I guess the fruit of the poisonous tree concept isn't acknowledged ineed Italy.

No, here we disagree. CPP Article 191 Unlawfully gathered evidence states:

Art. 191 Unlawfully gathered evidence

1. Evidence gathered in violation of the prohibitions set by law shall not be used.
2. The exclusion of evidence may be declared also ex officio at any stage and instance of the proceedings.

What is important to remember is that in Italy, whenever it is convenient for a prosecutor or judge to not obey a law such as CPP Article 191, then it is not obeyed.

 

[RoseMontague]

Hello all. I just logged in, lost my connection and had a time logging in again. Then I see this post from Anode, haha. I have not read here for 3+ weeks and know there is much to catch up on but unfortunately won't be able to do that for a time.

I have, of course, read about the acquittal of Amanda and Raffaele (though I didn't know of it until about a week later). I respect the court's decision, feel it was a wise one and look forward to reading the report when it is published. As with all the decisions (how many were there?) I don't play into conspiracies or corruption unless that is proven (and yes, this also applies to Stefanoni and Mignini). I think there were many different peoples who viewed the evidence and witnesses from their own perspective, the current law, witness reliability, evidence reliability, etc. and applied their decisions using that criteria.

As to what I believe I think that has to be in alliance with the most recent verdict. I ask too many questions always wanting to know more. Some will read into that questioning what they will.

I will ask of all here since I will have limited time to read back posts - What are the 3 main news stories or occurrences concerning the post-acquittal of Amanda and Raffaele (and if you have links that would be wonderful)? Eventually I will have time to reply back but that time isn't in the present.

It's good to hear from you. For me the interesting things have been Frank's comments, RS saying he will not tolerate and will take action against slander against him, Arline K comments about wanting to talk to Guede seem to me to be really strange, and the partial closing of dotorg.

 

[carbonjam72]

It's good to hear from you. For me the interesting things have been Frank's comments, RS saying he will not tolerate and will take action against slander against him, Arline K comments about wanting to talk to Guede seem to me to be really strange, and the partial closing of dotorg.

Also, the silence of John and Lyle Kercher, if that counts. (At least its easy to catch up on, since there's nothing to read).

And the fact that Mignini seems so quiet. I'm surprised he hasn't been flooded by press for his opinion on the acquittals.

 

[LondonJohn]

Also, the silence of John and Lyle Kercher, if that counts. (At least its easy to catch up on, since there's nothing to read).

And the fact that Mignini seems so quiet. I'm surprised he hasn't been flooded by press for his opinion on the acquittals.

Oh I highly suspect he has been bombarded by press inquiries. And if that's the case, then his apparent silence would be interesting and informative in itself.

Did anyone see that enigmatic tweet from Frank Sfarzo the other day about how he wouldn't like to be someone who was a phone or email contact of "the monster of pg (Perugia)" right now, given "what is forthcoming"? I wonder if the next few months might be rather *interesting* in the lives of certain prosecuting magistrates, state police officers, and state forensic scientists........?

 

[carbonjam72]

Oh I highly suspect he has been bombarded by press inquiries. And if that's the case, then his apparent silence would be interesting and informative in itself.

Did anyone see that enigmatic tweet from Frank Sfarzo the other day about how he wouldn't like to be someone who was a phone or email contact of "the monster of pg (Perugia)" right now, given "what is forthcoming"? I wonder if the next few months might be rather *interesting* in the lives of certain prosecuting magistrates, state police officers, and state forensic scientists........?

You mean, its being implied the Big Mig is once again becoming the subject of massive phone tapping? (Funny how the budget seems to appear when necessary).

By the way, Mignini was indicted just before the Kercher murder, and his investigation began shortly after Spezi was released from jail in April of 2006.

I would say it is highly likely that if Mignini made that phone call to Milan to spring Rudy Guede 5 days before he attacked Ms Kercher, that call is probably recorded - if Mignini made it, or if someone close to him made it.

Maybe all of this stuff will start to come out now. Including the missing DNA profiles. Would it be too immature to ask if anyone will be "thrown under the bus"?

I wonder if things get rolling after the release of the new motivations report. I wonder if Mignini is starting to wrap his head around the idea that he may be heading to jail?

Where is MAch when he's so needed????

 

[Bill Williams]

Oh I highly suspect he has been bombarded by press inquiries. And if that's the case, then his apparent silence would be interesting and informative in itself.

Did anyone see that enigmatic tweet from Frank Sfarzo the other day about how he wouldn't like to be someone who was a phone or email contact of "the monster of pg (Perugia)" right now, given "what is forthcoming"? I wonder if the next few months might be rather *interesting* in the lives of certain prosecuting magistrates, state police officers, and state forensic scientists........?

You mean, its being implied the Big Mig is once again becoming the subject of massive phone tapping? (Funny how the budget seems to appear when necessary).

By the way, Mignini was indicted just before the Kercher murder, and his investigation began shortly after Spezi was released from jail in April of 2006.

I would say it is highly likely that if Mignini made that phone call to Milan to spring Rudy Guede 5 days before he attacked Ms Kercher, that call is probably recorded - if Mignini made it, or if someone close to him made it.

Maybe all of this stuff will start to come out now. Including the missing DNA profiles. Would it be too immature to ask if anyone will be "thrown under the bus"?

I wonder if things get rolling after the release of the new motivations report. I wonder if Mignini is starting to wrap his head around the idea that he may be heading to jail?

Where is MAch when he's so needed????

Mignini has initiated a whole battery of satellite prosecutions, IIRC there's Sollecito/Gumbel in court at Mignini's beckoning... is not Sfarzo there as well in a separate issue? Did not the judge in the S/G case commission a proper Italian translation of offending words from "Honor Bound"? When is that coming up next?

Maybe Sfarzo is claiming that following March 27, 2015, that Mignini will be coming into court with a quiver, but the arrows will now belong to the other side.

Not only will the Marasca report come none too soon, but info on these other satellite cases. Machiavelli corrected me way-back when about when Mignini's own troubles would make it into court, and was first on the scene with the disposition of those proceedings.

Maybe we can pass the hat and pay for Machiavelli's internet access....

 

[Chris_Halkides]

They could have saved themselves two years of grief

[welshman impression] If the Sollecitos were going to pay off the judges, why wouldn't they have done so in 2013? [/welshman impression]

 

[Bill Williams]

[welshman impression] If the Sollecitos were going to pay off the judges, why wouldn't they have done so in 2013? [/welshman impression]

LOL!

Like Joe Kennedy said about the close race for president in Illinois in 1960. Joe told his son John to only buy enough votes to win. "I'll be damned if I pay for a landslide!"

Irishmen trump Welshmen any day of the week.