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Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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c) nobody in England is interested.

Italians corrupt! is no more a headline than Bears Crap in Woods.

Please don't tell me that the poorly educated chattering classes are more interested in Raffaele's car and lingerie-buying habits, or whether AK looks frumpy in a smock? Where are all the now defunct .ORG'ers and the .NUTters criticizing all of England for not being interested in Meredith?

At least here in these parts a bear crapping in the woods makes it to the Sunshine Girl page.
 
Please don't tell me that the poorly educated chattering classes are more interested in Raffaele's car and lingerie-buying habits, or whether AK looks frumpy in a smock? Where are all the now defunct .ORG'ers and the .NUTters criticizing all of England for not being interested in Meredith?

At least here in these parts a bear crapping in the woods makes it to the Sunshine Girl page.

The Mail's most recent story, only a couple of days ago, was about Raf shopping for lingerie with some blond. As it happens.
 
Bill Williams said:
Please don't tell me that the poorly educated chattering classes are more interested in Raffaele's car and lingerie-buying habits, or whether AK looks frumpy in a smock? Where are all the now defunct .ORG'ers and the .NUTters criticizing all of England for not being interested in Meredith?

At least here in these parts a bear crapping in the woods makes it to the Sunshine Girl page.
The Mail's most recent story, only a couple of days ago, was about Raf shopping for lingerie with some blond. As it happens.

..... and, of course, the .NUTters are plugging the Daily Mail comments sections with how the Daily Mail is forgetting Meredith.

What? They're not!?
 
bill further down rapid pete says the 10:13 call could have come from meredith's room but that seems to say the studious meredith, not like the drugged out sex fiend amanda, instead of studying was playing with her phone. they just can't deal with a time line without more twists than a stick of licorice. one of my favorites is that the kids somehow managed to time their trip(s) to cottage exactly when curatolo didn't look up.
 
Please don't tell me that the poorly educated chattering classes are more interested in Raffaele's car and lingerie-buying habits, or whether AK looks frumpy in a smock? Where are all the now defunct .ORG'ers and the .NUTters criticizing all of England for not being interested in Meredith?

At least here in these parts a bear crapping in the woods makes it to the Sunshine Girl page.


The Daily Mail is not a good indicator of whether Brits are still interested in the story - most of their online traffic is actually from the US, and the paper edition doesn't carry the same stories.
 
bill further down rapid pete says the 10:13 call could have come from meredith's room but that seems to say the studious meredith, not like the drugged out sex fiend amanda, instead of studying was playing with her phone. they just can't deal with a time line without more twists than a stick of licorice. one of my favorites is that the kids somehow managed to time their trip(s) to cottage exactly when curatolo didn't look up.

After all these years, no guilter has come up with a time-line of the crime from a guilt point of view. Marasca and Bruno on Section 5 a few weeks ago probably went into deliberation and said, "Ok, let's begin with a timeline of the crime,as if the two had been involved."

"Let's start with Machiavelli's." Nada. In fact, our dearly departed once said one wasn't needed.

"Ok, let's go with Nencini's." Nencini keep elements of his reconstruction as wide open as possible. And Section 5 simply didn't believe that Meredith had let Rudy in, as Nencini's acceptance of Rudy's story implies.

....... ok, now I have to remind myself that all this is over. .ORG is gone, .NUT is even more interesting than it ever was. I have to head upstairs because the coffee cup is stick to my desk again....mom filled it with coffee two weeks ago, and I haven't touched it. Too busy earnestly pounding away on this, the fourth keyboard. (A buddy of my throws new ones down the coal chute when I need them....)

Ah, where was I? Oh yes, the guilter timeline. What's a guilter?
 
Ohh dear. This is a new one just posted over at .nut now:

I hate to even think about it but it seems there could have been some monstrous scenario where an ethnically mixed girl needed to be 'cleansed'.

After all, didn't K make comments about 'my people killed your people'?

The murder was an ethnic cleansing??
 
One with Gawd said As Arline Kercher said so perceptively, "Meredith was everthing they were not".

Here we have the great PGP setup - their when did you quit beating your wife?

If PIP address this it shows our hatred for Meredith and the Kerchers and if it isn't addressed it's because even the groupies know Meredith was superior in every way.

Without trying to grade the two young women it seems quite clear that they had both achieved in school and were both having a great time in Perugia. It seems Meredith enjoyed drink more than smoke and Amanda vice versa. Meredith wasn't by any means a prude when it came to sex nor was Amanda. Meredith didn't seem as interested in sport as Amanda. Amanda didn't run with Americans as Meredith did with English people.

Amanda was dating a son of a rich doctor. Meredith was dating the guy downstairs who grew pot and had her care for the plants when he went home alone for the holidays.

We have no idea how things would appear had Amanda been killed and Meredith and Giacomo had found the house in a similar condition. the reporting I think would have been different since American ex-pats played such a central role in vilifying Amanda. Nadeau, Vogt and Gangong(who had only recently left France for yet another marriage when that translating gig petered out) always seemed to resent the Knox's boorish ways. How could they not understand that everything in Europe was perfect. England not being part of Europe.
 
Ohh dear. This is a new one just posted over at .nut now:

The murder was an ethnic cleansing??

And you thought the prosecutor's poo motivation was nuts? This is actually progress. The guilter has passed from middle ages devil/witchcraft motivation through the enlightenment to ethnic cleansing. I am just relieved that guilters aren't referring to the murder as an inevitable part of "class struggle".
 
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Ohh dear. This is a new one just posted over at .nut now:

The murder was an ethnic cleansing??

She hung out with guys from all over and many "of color" and worked for a black man whereas Meredith spent most of her free time with the british girls and boy downstairs. The famous "my people killed your people" came from a very questionable writer for the Stranger and has never been substantiated (see Bill I hold both sides to the same standard) while it is true that one of her drinking buddies at the UW used the term "dirty Jew" which I did find highly offensive and it would have been nice had Amanda at least frowned at the remark.

Perhaps I should but I never thought of Meredith as person of color any more than an Italian or Spaniard.
 
..... and, of course, the .NUTters are plugging the Daily Mail comments sections with how the Daily Mail is forgetting Meredith.

What? They're not!?

I've always found the comments that everyone is forgetting Meredith to be absurd. In fact, she may just be the most remembered murder victim outside of JFK. And the most true fact ever is that if Amanda hadn't been wrongly prosecuted, Meredith would have probably been remembered by only a handful of people.

There are approximately 45 people murdered in the US every single day.How many do we remember? How many get much more than a couple of lines in the local newspaper?

Whether the guilters like it or not, the interesting story is the wrongful prosecution of Knox and Sollecito, not the tragic, but pedestrian murder of Meredith. If not for the pretty girl suspect, this event would have been forgotten by the public in a couple of weeks at most.
 
And you thought the prosecutor's poo motivation was nuts? This is actually progress. The guilter has passed from middle ages devil/witchcraft motivation through the enlightenment to ethnic cleansing. I am just relieved that guilters aren't referring to the murder as an inevitable part of "class struggle".

Set aside for a moment that Italy has now proven that neither AK and/or RS were even involved. ....

But the "ethnic cleansing" motive is proof positive that the Pro-guilt PR lobby has officially collapsed.

If Michael and/or Ergon cared at all about Meredith, they would not allow posts like this, to erode what's left of the lobby.

It used to be folk like Harry Rag who kept them on message posting everywhere that had a comments section the lies about mixed-blood, and "ample DNA evidence." Or the consistent reply to no evidence in the crime room save pointing to Rudy...

... which was "but the whole cottage was the crime scene."

(No matter that this last one was actually a call to ignore the murder room!!!)

But with Michael and Ergon allowing such wild off-message stuff, is proof the lobby is dead.

Do they really think this promotes their stated cause to memorialize Meredith? Or does it just make them look like wild -eyed haters?
 
I've always found the comments that everyone is forgetting Meredith to be absurd. In fact, she may just be the most remembered murder victim outside of JFK. And the most true fact ever is that if Amanda hadn't been wrongly prosecuted, Meredith would have probably been remembered by only a handful of people.

There are approximately 45 people murdered in the US every single day.How many do we remember? How many get much more than a couple of lines in the local newspaper?

Whether the guilters like it or not, the interesting story is the wrongful prosecution of Knox and Sollecito, not the tragic, but pedestrian murder of Meredith. If not for the pretty girl suspect, this event would have been forgotten by the public in a couple of weeks at most.

Exactly my thoughts. It ranks alongside the claim that the Kercher family "kept a dignified silence throughout".
 
The involvementor is putting the .net crew through paces - really quite good. His major flaw is that there is no evidence of a clean-up or them setting Rudi up to meet Mez. He does tear apart their time lines or lack of them with the obvious points.

Why the PGP don't just drop Curatolo and Nara as well Monacchia will always be a mystery. None of them can make Curatolo's and Nara's stories fit a time line. One astute poster countered 777 by saying who needs a timeline hahahaha.

So will the ISC point out that the prosecution has never made a timeline that fits what they allege to known facts?
 
The involvementor is putting the .net crew through paces - really quite good. His major flaw is that there is no evidence of a clean-up or them setting Rudi up to meet Mez. He does tear apart their time lines or lack of them with the obvious points.

Why the PGP don't just drop Curatolo and Nara as well Monacchia will always be a mystery. None of them can make Curatolo's and Nara's stories fit a time line. One astute poster countered 777 by saying who needs a timeline hahahaha.

So will the ISC point out that the prosecution has never made a timeline that fits what they allege to known facts?


It really is becoming a fascinating study of their collective ignorance, confirmation bias, intellectual dishonesty, vindictiveness and sheer stupidity.

I think that pro-guilt commentators fall into only a few different categories. But the largest category, as I observe things, is those who are primarily motivated by a genuine belief that they're fighting (and fighting against the forces of evil) for "truth and justice". A belief in the participation of Knox and Sollecito in the murder is, of course, a fundamental component of that primary motivation.

But since the primary motivation is the thing that really matters (married as it is to feelings of moral superiority and self-worth), the second-order question of whether Knox/Sollecito really DID participate in the murder cannot now be essentially challenged by them. For any of them to conclude at this point that it's even possible that Knox and/or Sollecito were not in fact involved would render their whole "campaign" moot, pointless, ill-judged and vindictive. So, intellectually and emotionally, they are fundamentally not only unwilling, but actually unable, to abandon a belief that Knox and Sollecito took part in the murder.


(Funnily enough, one sometimes (but rarely) sees this phenomenon with people who campaign for perceived miscarriages of justice, when it subsequently turns out that the person for whom they were campaigning did in fact commit the crime. This happened IIRC in the case of the famous "A6 Murder" in the UK. A low-intelligence drifter called James Hanratty was convicted and executed in the early 1960s, but many people campaigned for years to clear his name since they were convinced that he couldn't have committed the crime (for various reasons) and that there was another more likely suspect. Eventually the case was reopened, and in the mid-90s the investigating police actually declared Hanratty not-guilty. But improved DNA testing techniques led to a re-examination of semen swabs from the crime scene in 2002. They proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Hanratty was the killer. Even with this immensely powerful evidence, some campaigners were unable to accept the outcome, and continued to argue that there must have been some massive fault (or even malpractice) in the DNA testing.)
 
It really is becoming a fascinating study of their collective ignorance, confirmation bias, intellectual dishonesty, vindictiveness and sheer stupidity.

I think that pro-guilt commentators fall into only a few different categories. But the largest category, as I observe things, is those who are primarily motivated by a genuine belief that they're fighting (and fighting against the forces of evil) for "truth and justice". A belief in the participation of Knox and Sollecito in the murder is, of course, a fundamental component of that primary motivation.

But since the primary motivation is the thing that really matters (married as it is to feelings of moral superiority and self-worth), the second-order question of whether Knox/Sollecito really DID participate in the murder cannot now be essentially challenged by them. For any of them to conclude at this point that it's even possible that Knox and/or Sollecito were not in fact involved would render their whole "campaign" moot, pointless, ill-judged and vindictive. So, intellectually and emotionally, they are fundamentally not only unwilling, but actually unable, to abandon a belief that Knox and Sollecito took part in the murder.


(Funnily enough, one sometimes (but rarely) sees this phenomenon with people who campaign for perceived miscarriages of justice, when it subsequently turns out that the person for whom they were campaigning did in fact commit the crime. This happened IIRC in the case of the famous "A6 Murder" in the UK. A low-intelligence drifter called James Hanratty was convicted and executed in the early 1960s, but many people campaigned for years to clear his name since they were convinced that he couldn't have committed the crime (for various reasons) and that there was another more likely suspect. Eventually the case was reopened, and in the mid-90s the investigating police actually declared Hanratty not-guilty. But improved DNA testing techniques led to a re-examination of semen swabs from the crime scene in 2002. They proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Hanratty was the killer. Even with this immensely powerful evidence, some campaigners were unable to accept the outcome, and continued to argue that there must have been some massive fault (or even malpractice) in the DNA testing.)

My contention - with possible confirmation bias very possible - is that just about every pro-innocence poster I've met, would change their views on innocence in a New York minute if it could be demonstrated that either AK or RS were, in fact, guilty.

For instance - if the putative semen stain was tested and found to be Raffaele's, then that would be game over. IIRC (and can be corrected if wrong) to have Raffaele's defence team request that the Nencini court test the sample, and have Nencini deny the request simply defies belief.

On IA/IIP there's a discussion about Jody Arias, just recently sentenced to life in prison for the brutal murder of her former boyfriend. There are a few "innocenters" contributing to that thread - I'm not one of them. Vindictive guilter I am.

In the wrongful prosecutions of Debra Milke, AK/RS, Nyki Kish, Russ Faria, etc. the reasons why most come to believe in their innocence is because of a phenomenon I've seen multiple times:

Someone starts with the view that they are probably guilty - because, let's admit it, police most often DO arrest the right/obvious people. Yet for some who are arrested, even after confessions (Central Park 5), all one needs to do is pull on a few threads of the case against them - confessions notwithstanding - and the case comes unraveled.

With Jody Arias, most surely there are threads hanging - but none of them, when pulled, cause the fabric of the case against them to come unraveled. She's guilty as hell.

In short, one tends to hold in the back of one's mind that one could be mistaken! What seems to be going on at .NUT is that no such possibility can ever be entertained. At all.

Have they started into conspiratorializing the exonerations? Where has Machiavelli ended up?
 
It really is becoming a fascinating study of their collective ignorance, confirmation bias, intellectual dishonesty, vindictiveness and sheer stupidity.

I think that pro-guilt commentators fall into only a few different categories. But the largest category, as I observe things, is those who are primarily motivated by a genuine belief that they're fighting (and fighting against the forces of evil) for "truth and justice". A belief in the participation of Knox and Sollecito in the murder is, of course, a fundamental component of that primary motivation.

But since the primary motivation is the thing that really matters (married as it is to feelings of moral superiority and self-worth), the second-order question of whether Knox/Sollecito really DID participate in the murder cannot now be essentially challenged by them. For any of them to conclude at this point that it's even possible that Knox and/or Sollecito were not in fact involved would render their whole "campaign" moot, pointless, ill-judged and vindictive. So, intellectually and emotionally, they are fundamentally not only unwilling, but actually unable, to abandon a belief that Knox and Sollecito took part in the murder.


(Funnily enough, one sometimes (but rarely) sees this phenomenon with people who campaign for perceived miscarriages of justice, when it subsequently turns out that the person for whom they were campaigning did in fact commit the crime. This happened IIRC in the case of the famous "A6 Murder" in the UK. A low-intelligence drifter called James Hanratty was convicted and executed in the early 1960s, but many people campaigned for years to clear his name since they were convinced that he couldn't have committed the crime (for various reasons) and that there was another more likely suspect. Eventually the case was reopened, and in the mid-90s the investigating police actually declared Hanratty not-guilty. But improved DNA testing techniques led to a re-examination of semen swabs from the crime scene in 2002. They proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Hanratty was the killer. Even with this immensely powerful evidence, some campaigners were unable to accept the outcome, and continued to argue that there must have been some massive fault (or even malpractice) in the DNA testing.)

At the risk of sounding like a madman to you, LJ, I think there remain some problems with the Hanratty evidence, not least with the later testing of the DNA on the issue of contamination, but this is not the proper forum for such a discussion.

Nevertheless, I was chuckling at the possibility of being the mirror image of a pro guilt nutter. Since Hanratty has been dead since 1962 and nothing can be done for him, the case doesn't bother me much, though it still consumes some of his family.
 
Bill Williams;10594501[HILITE said:
]My contention - with possible confirmation bias very possible - is that just about every pro-innocence poster I've met, would change their views on innocence in a New York minute if it could be demonstrated that either AK or RS were, in fact, guilty.[/HILITE]

For instance - if the putative semen stain was tested and found to be Raffaele's, then that would be game over. IIRC (and can be corrected if wrong) to have Raffaele's defence team request that the Nencini court test the sample, a

I'm not sure about everyone, but definitely most. That said, I wouldn't have changed my mind if the court of cassation had upheld their convictions. That wouldn't have been proof to me.

In fact, I struggled with the bra clasp evidence. There is no reason for Raffaele's DNA to be on it. But that was it. I never bought the idea that there was 2 knives and certainly if there was, the second wasn't the cooking knife.

I never saw a motive for Knox and even less of one for Raffaele. While it might be argued that there was little motive for Rudy, it was still 100 times more motive for him than A&R. By that, I mean there is some pretty good evidence that Rudy was a small time burglar. There is also the fact that many serial killers and rapists begin their criminal career committing burglaries.

But far more significant than motive, was the overwhelming evidence of Rudy being the killer.
The DNA was strong, but it his palm print and shoe prints in Meredith's blood that is far more persuasive.

I found it very easy to discount this microscopic evidence against A&R, because nothing else supported it and far too many things contradicted it, including the fact that there really is nothing in that room that points to anyone but Rudy.

The guilters don't have to like it, but the fact is there is a strong case against Rudy and an extremely marginal one against Amanda or Raffaele.

When you ask a guilter to argue the case, it is always about Amanda and Raffaele's behavior which I never thought was even a little strange. They would point to A&R turning off their phones... (who cares?) I'm really not sure that they did even if they said they did. But that isn't incrimanating. Then they ask why Amanda called her mother when it was 5 AM In the morning in Seattle? (Who cares?) Or that she only let one of the calls ring for 4 seconds. Never do they present any hard evidence. And none of them can present a time line that fits the evidence.

But I think what bothers me the most is that they make up evidence and never cease to quit presenting arguments that have been debunked.
 
It really is becoming a fascinating study of their collective ignorance, confirmation bias, intellectual dishonesty, vindictiveness and sheer stupidity.

On the last count one of them stated that Italian law doesn't require a timeline. Of course no alibi could be possible if there was no time line. If Mez was dead by 9:05 the kids had the most solid alibi. If she were dead by 9:45 then the testimony of Curatolo would be their alibi and Nara
/Monacchia would be, well, obviously ridiculous. Of course, if they just alter Curatolo's testimony to fit their most recent theory. Even Massei erroneously altered the end time to 11:30 because midnight didn't work with Nara.

I wonder what happened to Coulsdon and Briars. I PM'ed C but no reply.
 
On the last count one of them stated that Italian law doesn't require a timeline. Of course no alibi could be possible if there was no time line. If Mez was dead by 9:05 the kids had the most solid alibi. If she were dead by 9:45 then the testimony of Curatolo would be their alibi and Nara
/Monacchia would be, well, obviously ridiculous. Of course, if they just alter Curatolo's testimony to fit their most recent theory. Even Massei erroneously altered the end time to 11:30 because midnight didn't work with Nara.

I wonder what happened to Coulsdon and Briars. I PM'ed C but no reply.

Grinder,
Your mention of Coulsdon reminded me of a question he or she would post from time-to-time: What is the status of Amanda Knox's application to the ECHR claiming that Italy violated her Convention rights in her trial and conviction for calunnia.

Well, I have examined the Statistics section of the ECHR home page site, and wish to convey that there are as of March 31, 2015, only 9000 pending applications allocated to a judicial formation against Italy, an improvement of about 10% since the beginning of the year. Thus we can with confidence predict that ECHR will be moving forward on Amanda's application perhaps as soon as tomorrow or otherwise as soon as it actually does move forward with it.

IIUC, Coulsdon maintained that ECHR would not move forward on Amanda's application prior to the CSC March, 2015 hearing, because ECHR would not wish to influence that hearing. While I cannot agree that ECHR was motivated as Coulsdon suggested, it is noteworthy that CSC was able to finalize an acquittal for Amanda and Raffaele on the murder and rape charges with no explicit influence from a specific ECHR judgment on the case.

A different poster, griffinmill, had requested, IIUC, that I find counter examples to the well-known ECHR case-law against convicting a person based on statements that person had made under questioning (interrogation) without counsel, and without valid waiver of counsel, except as provided for in Ibrahim and others v the United Kingdom. I continue to be unaware of such counter-examples, but I would welcome learning of any such ECHR cases.
 
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