Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Strozzi]

I think that any analysis of how this all happened needs to remember where it happened and what sort of a place Italy is. Italy is the birthplace of both the Mafia and Fascism. Italy has a country within it, the Vatican.

Many in Italy seem to actually believe the teachings of the Catholic Church which to me is basically a cult. It wasn't that long ago that people here in the US actually believed in witches and the old dunking stool.

I think that Mignini et al. believed after a short time that Amanda was a witch of some sort and if the evidence wasn't quite right it was because she had altered it with her powers. The reason Mignini can continue to hold office is that he represents the will of the majority. The witnesses came forward to help get the witch. The police did what was needed to get the witch.

Did the Salem witch hunters get criticism or praise?

I don't know how to get into minds of people with the sort of beliefs these people seem to have. That adds to how the PGP, that aren't of that ilk ,can't see the flaws in the case if not outright innocence. Watching them bring up Koko now is mind-boggling

oh well

I am surprised that innocent Italians accused by the likes of Mignini of participating in group crimes - in the MOD case to collect body parts for Satanic cult practices - do not, after years of false imprisonment and exhausting trials, retaliate violently against Mignini and others like him. I am surprised he still walks. What is it about Italian society that causes victims to not seek vengeance and eliminate him and his collaborators? Do all Italians practice forgiveness? Are they content with the drawn-out judicial system? Or are they afraid? Why no lone-wolf revenge?
(Disclaimer: I am not advocating violence against them. I am curious about the tolerance practiced by victims.)

 

[Grinder]

Hi Grinder,
If you have a moment,
watch this recent video from CBS and 48 Hours correspondent Peter Van Sant,
it gives us some input on Mignini's Satanic Theory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqjTl2D3uwA

"They brought Amanda Knox in for 14 hours of interrogation by a group of men who break Mafia suspects, at the end of that she gave this false confession."

"The prosecutor, Guliano Mignini, (this is a true story, cause we interviewed the Medium who has since died), he would, he would consult a Spiritual Medium who spoke to a dead Priest, there was a bloody palm print found on the wall, and the Priest told the Medium who told Mignini that this was a Satanic Sexual Ritualized killing. That's where that came from."

Well that still doesn't change the fact that no quote of Mignini or court document includes the "Satanic Rite". Van Sant says it was the whack job medium that told him the story and I think fourteen hours of interrogation by men who break Mafia suspects just ins't true. This was the PLE the flying squad Ficaro, Napoleoni et al.

As I said earlier I have no doubt that he's a whack job that believes in the occult but didn't call it a Satanic Rite on the record. Van Sant doesn't say Mignini said it. Really not that big of a deal one way or the other.

 

[moije2]

Mignini's cohort Michele Giuttari invented from whole cloth the theory that a satanic sect was behind the Monster of Florence killings, and that the sexual mutilation of the female victims was a deliberate part of a satanic rite, that the killings had to occur during the height of sexual release to have the most power and effectiveness in their satanic rituals.

Giuttari's use of "algebraic witnesses" against Mario Vanni and Giancarlo Lotti (Lotti being a village idiot and witness against himself), is what enabled Giuttari to secure convictions against Vanni and Lotti for the MOF crimes, and overturn Pacciani's acquittal on appeal. The case against Pacciani was garbage, and Vanni and Lotti were obviously not his accomplices.

Pacciani died two days before his retrial was due to begin, and Vanni and Lotti were convicted as his accomplices in the MOF murders.

The issue of motive was never addressed by the courts, and the satanic angle was Giuttari's handiwork, based on the word of one of his witnesses, a homeless endstage alcoholic named Ghiribelli, and further developed with the aid of Carlizzi (the "psychic medium").
When Mignini went forward with his Narducci trail investigation, instigated by Carlizzi (according to Preston&Spezi in their book on the MOF), they again claimed the Narduccis and 20 people from Florence were part of a satanic sect that had hired Pacciani, Vanni and Lotti to secure the female body parts for their "satanic rituals".

When Mignini claimed the Kercher killing was related to "Halloween rites" and "violent orgies", it is all of a piece. This idea didn't just happen to occur to Mignini, it is precisely the same fraudulent hoax he and Giuttari were then perpetrating in the narducci trail cases, and for which he and Giuttari had just then been indicted.
Mignini's witnesses in the Narducci trail case he had then going on at the time of the Kercher killing, against the pharmicist Francesco Calamendrei, featured the same four "algebraic witnesses" from Giuttari's MOF case, and the assistance of Carlizzi.

Its just a massive fraud by Mignini and Giuttari, and I do not believe Mignini just happened to arrive independently at his conclusions, nor the language he used to communicate his story to the press. I believe Mignini is just an amoral low life criminal, masquerading as a public servant. He should be in jail for what he did in this case.

Yes this continuum of thought pattern has always been interesting. Yet those from the dark side take umbrage at discussions which malign Mignini. Including this topic. I have MoF on my desk to read again. I just re-read Preston's Trial by Fury. Excellent easy read.

 

[Bill Williams]

Well that still doesn't change the fact that no quote of Mignini or court document includes the "Satanic Rite". Van Sant says it was the whack job medium that told him the story and I think fourteen hours of interrogation by men who break Mafia suspects just ins't true. This was the PLE the flying squad Ficaro, Napoleoni et al.

As I said earlier I have no doubt that he's a whack job that believes in the occult but didn't call it a Satanic Rite on the record. Van Sant doesn't say Mignini said it. Really not that big of a deal one way or the other.

As you well know, I've been on the hunt for such a quote, and to be honest have not found it. No one, van Sant included (IIRC) said that Mignini said it.

But at this point, post-exoneration, it perhaps does not matter, as you say.

In one of Machiavelli's last posts here on ISF, Machiavelli summarized how much things had shifted in Mignini's initial prosecution of this case. Whether or not Mignini actually did think of Knox as "a witch" and prosecuted it as such, with Hallowe'en ritualistic themes in mind, by the time Mignini summarized his case (in late 2009), it was clear he'd shifted from the theological to the psychological.

This looks like a citation from Mignini's 2009 closing arguments.
The prosecutor was slightly more articulate.

First, draws a psychological picture of Knox as nurturing a feeling of humiliation/ wounded self because of Meredith's behaviour gradually cutting her out from friendship circle, and suggests Meredith being disturbed by some of Amanda's sexual behaviours, or Amanda feeling offended by Meredith's attitude, may have plaid a role. At least the sexual theme plaid a role as an a trigger of an argument, or somehow as an instrument in Knox's "revenge":

"Quando Mez si accorge che con Amanda e Raffaele vi è Rudy manifesta alla coinquilina il suo disappunto, l' ennesima presenza di un altro ragazzo che Amanda porta in casa. Meredith rinfaccia ad Amanda anche la mancanza di denaro che pure aveva a disposizione..."

Then Mignini draws a scenario where an argument between them degenerates, and this the context of the presence of Guede high on drugs and alcohol in a sexual ruse situation and Sollecito also high after using extensive drugs. Then draws a picture of what an instigation to sexual violence as a trigger moment could look like:

"(..) E' facile immaginare - continua Mignini - che Amanda adirata con la ragazza inglese per le sue crescenti critiche al suo comportamento disinvolto in materia sessuale abbia rinfacciato a Mez la sua riservatezza, l' abbia insultata e magari le abbia detto: "Facevi tanto la santarellina, ora te lo facciamo vedere noi, ora dovrai fare sesso per forza..."
Mgnini calls Knox's behaviour: "aggressione sessuale da rivalsa" ("a sexual aggression as a revenge"), also suggested Knox may have felt Meredith as "una smorfiosetta" ("prissy").

Mignii suggests Knox may have taken advantage of her abilty to manipulate Guede and Sollecito through the sexual attraction they were both feeling for her, and thus from their "competition" to please Amanda, especially in their condition of being unchained and uninhibited due to use of drugs.

I don't believe Mignini's scenario has any meaningful difference from Nencini's reasoning about motives. Both portray a situation that has a sexual element, but the sexual context is a minor component, only a context and not itself the main motive. Both point out that "motives" are complex, different from each participants and made of multiple reasons. All judges conclude that the crime builds up gradually as an escalation, from a smaller conflict or a smaller aggression and as a degeneration of an argument.

So, whether or not Mignini started with the theological, he ended with the psychological. And thus the (former) rhetorical battleground about Amanda Knox's supposed psychopathological make-up.

Reading Judge Massei's 2010 report shows the impact this shift had on the court: none. Massei returned to an over-simplified theological reason for AK's and RS's supposed misbehaviour - a brief and inexplicable "choice for evil," brought on by marijuana smoking.

Maybe Massei is using that expression, "a choice for evil" as simply a turn of phrase, and perhaps he didn't really mean it to have religious baggage associated with it.

But it is clear (a couple of things): Mignini was hip-deep in the Satanism and the Law discussions going on in mainline Italian life.




All this is past - except for perhaps as the content of investigations on how the wrongful arrest and wrongful prosecution of two innocents went so badly out of whack.

There are many who wonder why the British Tabloids don't turn on to this theme for their latest lurid headlines? This has been the story since the start.

 

[RWVBWL]

Well that still doesn't change the fact that no quote of Mignini or court document includes the "Satanic Rite". Van Sant says it was the whack job medium that told him the story and I think fourteen hours of interrogation by men who break Mafia suspects just ins't true. This was the PLE the flying squad Ficaro, Napoleoni et al.

As I said earlier I have no doubt that he's a whack job that believes in the occult but didn't call it a Satanic Rite on the record. Van Sant doesn't say Mignini said it. Really not that big of a deal one way or the other.

Hi again Grinder,
What's interesting is that Peter Van Sant says at around 2:54 in the video clip that Mignini goes in front of the cameras and says this is a Satanic Sex Game Gone Wrong.

I've wondered if Mignini was ever gonna sue CBS and Van Sant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqjTl2D3uwA

Satanic Sex game Gone Wrong.
I'd luv to see PM Mignini say this on camera,
that would be funny to see nowadays, right?

If not Mignini saying this,
who else might we blame as doing so?
The English tabloids?

 

[Bill Williams]

When Mignini claimed the Kercher killing was related to "Halloween rites" and "violent orgies", it is all of a piece. This idea didn't just happen to occur to Mignini, it is precisely the same fraudulent hoax he and Giuttari were then perpetrating in the narducci trail cases, and for which he and Giuttari had just then been indicted.

Yes this continuum of thought pattern has always been interesting. Yet those from the dark side take umbrage at discussions which malign Mignini. Including this topic. I have MoF on my desk to read again. I just re-read Preston's Trial by Fury. Excellent easy read.

Hey CJ72 - are you ready for another prediction of mine?

Years from now, when some enterprising reputable journalist rediscovers the judicial mess that took place from 2007 to 2015, I predict that they will write about the Monster of Florence, Narducci case, and the wrongful prosecution of AK and RS as one story.

 

[Grinder]

Hi again Grinder,
What's interesting is that Peter Van Sant says at around 2:54 in the video clip that Mignini goes in front of the cameras and says this is a Satanic Sex Game Gone Wrong.

I've wondered if Mignini was ever gonna sue CBS and Van Sant.

There you go Bill - Van Sant can give you a link to a video where Mignini says it was a Satanic Sex Game (I thought was either a Satanic Rite or a Sex Game).

Mignini likes to sue the little guys like West Seattle Herald.

I really am not spoiling for a battle but Van Sant seems a little loose with facts in this segment. Do you think Amanda was interrogated for 14 hours by cops that normally are breaking Mafia suspects?

 

[Antony]

I am surprised that innocent Italians accused by the likes of Mignini of participating in group crimes - in the MOD case to collect body parts for Satanic cult practices - do not, after years of false imprisonment and exhausting trials, retaliate violently against Mignini and others like him. I am surprised he still walks. What is it about Italian society that causes victims to not seek vengeance and eliminate him and his collaborators? Do all Italians practice forgiveness? Are they content with the drawn-out judicial system? Or are they afraid? Why no lone-wolf revenge?
(Disclaimer: I am not advocating violence against them. I am curious about the tolerance practiced by victims.)

You have to remember that innocent people are much easier targets for police and prosecutors than real hard-nut criminals. They cooperate, they act naively, and they don't take the law into their own hands.

Police fear the Mafia, they fear the genuine criminal, they don't fear the 20-year-old overseas student with no experience of dealing with such a situation, the friend and housemate of the murder victim.

 

[Bill Williams]

There you go Bill - Van Sant can give you a link to a video where Mignini says it was a Satanic Sex Game (I thought was either a Satanic Rite or a Sex Game).

Mignini likes to sue the little guys like West Seattle Herald.

I really am not spoiling for a battle but Van Sant seems a little loose with facts in this segment. Do you think Amanda was interrogated for 14 hours by cops that normally are breaking Mafia suspects?

I honestly do not know. I can only offer anecdotal stuff about my own experience which confirms that after 15 to 20 minutes, I have been grilled by border-airport personnel, and after that short a time felt extremely disoriented at having my word distrusted, having rapid-fire suspicious sounding questions peppered at me, and fearing that I had done something wrong which I was unaware of - because these professionals knew which buttons to push and which well-known interrogation games to play.....

....... only to have them look at my passport and say casually, "Ok, you can go, have a nice day."

Missing from this experience:

- I'd not had a friend and roommate brutally murdered
- I'd had a wealth of international travel experience which AK had not
- I'd not been called into the questura for questioning on multiple occasions beforehand
- I'd never endured this in a foreign language, and it has often occurred to me how I'd explain English idioms (cf. "See you later") to non-English speakers (esp. when the supplied translator was unable/unwilling to clear that one up!)
- I'd never endured this in the middle of the night after having three or four nights of limited sleep​

I would concede that the expression, "Amanda was interrogated for 14 hours by cops that normally are breaking Mafia suspects," is not exactly accurate - especially to Grinder standards. (Which is why I am - seriously - grateful you're back!)

But speaking anecdotally, I have no trouble at all appreciating how Amanda could be going into an interrogation as a suspect in a murder trial, and about three hours later be signing something, anything. I'd be signing a confession to the JFK assassination..... I have no trouble believing that at all!

 

[Samson]

While I still think it is important to be accurate in discussion and I could never find a quote of Mignini calling it a Satanic Rite, that doesn't mean I don't believe he is a whack job that believes in the occult. More just Mignini the fact that the entire culture he live surrounded my seems to ready for a witch trial at any time.

I'm not following the other murder charged to a young woman in Italy with no evidence but could she also be a witch?

The cognoscenti here seem to believe Sabrina is more innocent than Amanda.
Fascinating case if you can translate google translate, where she becomes he.

 

[Grinder]

I honestly do not know. I can only offer anecdotal stuff about my own experience which confirms that after 15 to 20 minutes, I have been grilled by border-airport personnel, and after that short a time felt extremely disoriented at having my word distrusted, having rapid-fire suspicious sounding questions peppered at me, and fearing that I had done something wrong which I was unaware of - because these professionals knew which buttons to push and which well-known interrogation games to play.....

....... only to have them look at my passport and say casually, "Ok, you can go, have a nice day."

Missing from this experience:

- I'd not had a friend and roommate brutally murdered
- I'd had a wealth of international travel experience which AK had not
- I'd not been called into the questura for questioning on multiple occasions beforehand
- I'd never endured this in a foreign language, and it has often occurred to me how I'd explain English idioms (cf. "See you later") to non-English speakers (esp. when the supplied translator was unable/unwilling to clear that one up!)
- I'd never endured this in the middle of the night after having three or four nights of limited sleep​

I would concede that the expression, "Amanda was interrogated for 14 hours by cops that normally are breaking Mafia suspects," is not exactly accurate - especially to Grinder standards. (Which is why I am - seriously - grateful you're back!)

But speaking anecdotally, I have no trouble at all appreciating how Amanda could be going into an interrogation as a suspect in a murder trial, and about three hours later be signing something, anything. I'd be signing a confession to the JFK assassination..... I have no trouble believing that at all!

Bill I have no doubt that Amanda was put through the ringer before she buckled and told them what they knew to be true. But when a source is used to prove Mignini said Satanic Rite or Satanic Sex Game and in the same video says that AK was interrogated for 14 hours by police trained to break Mafia types I think it has to be pointed out that he is at best exaggerating.

I don't like Mignini or the PLE in general but Mignini is quite careful not to leave his truth to be on the record. Until I see this video where he says what Van s claims I will doubt it strongly.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill I have no doubt that Amanda was put through the ringer before she buckled and told them what they knew to be true. But when a source is used to prove Mignini said Satanic Rite or Satanic Sex Game and in the same video says that AK was interrogated for 14 hours by police trained to break Mafia types I think it has to be pointed out that he is at best exaggerating.

I don't like Mignini or the PLE in general but Mignini is quite careful not to leave his truth to be on the record. Until I see this video where he says what Van s claims I will doubt it strongly.

So let's say it: he was at best exaggerating! Not far from the truth, but with a wee bit of embellishment.

Given that most of the guilt-stuff from Mignini, Massei, Crini, and Nencini was simply inventions from whole cloth....... you get my drift.

 

[carbonjam72]

Hey CJ72 - are you ready for another prediction of mine?

Years from now, when some enterprising reputable journalist rediscovers the judicial mess that took place from 2007 to 2015, I predict that they will write about the Monster of Florence, Narducci case, and the wrongful prosecution of AK and RS as one story.

Oh jesus Bill, more predictions? Well on this one, my best guess at this moment is that I have to agree with you. Except for the part about it being a "reputable journalist".

By the way, have you seen these two posts by any chance:

http://groundreport.com/amanda-knox...-amanda-and-raffaelle-will-now-be-exonerated/


http://groundreport.com/amanda-knox...ame-to-florence-how-to-send-him-back-to-hell/

 

[Bill Williams]

Oh jesus Bill, more predictions? Well on this one, my best guess at this moment is that I have to agree with you. Except for the part about it being a "reputable journalist".

By the way, have you seen these two posts by any chance:

http://groundreport.com/amanda-knox...-amanda-and-raffaelle-will-now-be-exonerated/


http://groundreport.com/amanda-knox...ame-to-florence-how-to-send-him-back-to-hell/

Who is "Jay"?

You've just sullied your record CJ72 agreeing with me..... you used to show better sense!

 

[moije2]

Hi Moije2,
This book is a great place to start reading more about Perugia and PM Mignini, his up bring and beliefs.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Fatal-Gift-Beauty-Trials/dp/0307588599
I wish that I still had my online copy, which I deleted after Raff and Amanda were 1st set free by Judge Hellmann's Court back in 2011, there is some great info in Nina Burleigh's book...


This short passage on page 147+148 of her book describes lil' Mignini living next to a 16th century massive stone dungeon known as Torcoletti Prison that was a womens prison in the 1950's and lil' Mignini watched them:
https://books.google.com/books?id=X...a burleigh mignini stenography school&f=false

Thanks alot RW! Now I have another book to read.

Seriously, good find, and thanks. I didn't remember that from my previous read and was due for a re-read of her book. I always liked her book the most in spite of what I recall as some loose pop psychology toward the end.

 

[lonepinealex]

There are many who wonder why the British Tabloids don't turn on to this theme for their latest lurid headlines? This has been the story since the start.

a) it's too complicated, b) it requires them to do some investigative work.

 

[anglolawyer]

a) it's too complicated, b) it requires them to do some investigative work.

c) nobody in England is interested.

Italians corrupt! is no more a headline than Bears Crap in Woods.

 

[lonepinealex]

c) nobody in England is interested.

Italians corrupt! is no more a headline than Bears Crap in Woods.

Indeed!

 

[Grinder]

from .net oh my - For K and S to have been there 'earlier' means a window of approx 9.05pm to 9.25pm at the cottage before being seen (in completely clean and dry clothes) by Curatolo. Then an hour and three quarter wait just a few metres from the crime - with a witness on a park bench nearby.

The 'blood-curdling scream' was heard at 11.00pm-11.30pm so doesn't fit your scenario at all.

Perhaps you are beginning to see why the now-defunct .org discussion board never supplied a credible hypothetical timeline despite tens of thousands of posts over seven years and a number of legal experts on board. Their standard get out clause was 'no-one will ever really know what happened' and 'it all happend between 9pm and midnight'.

We'll see if the supreme court motivation report looks at the lack of credible timeline. I also understand why Meredith's mother wants to meet G because 'no-one will ever really know what happened' and 'it all happened between 9pm and midnight' does not bring closure.

As things stand - and perhaps forever more, the position of the italian legal system (once beloved of .org) is that of INVOLVED for K: innocent of murder but guilty of the crime of calumnia.

 

[Bill Williams]

from .net oh my - For K and S to have been there 'earlier' means a window of approx 9.05pm to 9.25pm at the cottage before being seen (in completely clean and dry clothes) by Curatolo. Then an hour and three quarter wait just a few metres from the crime - with a witness on a park bench nearby.

The 'blood-curdling scream' was heard at 11.00pm-11.30pm so doesn't fit your scenario at all.

Perhaps you are beginning to see why the now-defunct .org discussion board never supplied a credible hypothetical timeline despite tens of thousands of posts over seven years and a number of legal experts on board. Their standard get out clause was 'no-one will ever really know what happened' and 'it all happend between 9pm and midnight'.

We'll see if the supreme court motivation report looks at the lack of credible timeline. I also understand why Meredith's mother wants to meet G because 'no-one will ever really know what happened' and 'it all happened between 9pm and midnight' does not bring closure.

As things stand - and perhaps forever more, the position of the italian legal system (once beloved of .org) is that of INVOLVED for K: innocent of murder but guilty of the crime of calumnia.

"Oh my", is right. Heading in the direction of a "wow".