Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[moije2]

Willfully destroyed evidence? Think bra clasp so it could not be tested again. No police forensic dr.-scientist accidentally stores in fluid a small fabric and metal trophy. It was deliberate. Stefanoni made a special trip back to the crime scene 46 days later to collect it when she needed to pull a rabbit out of a hat to save the prosecutor's case when wiretaps revealed the shoeprint evidence against Raffaele was about to be exposed on TV as Rudi's shoe. She flaunted the bra clasp for the camera. Stefanoni is cunning with her lab work, as you can see in the way she manipulates her trays. The clasp's destruction was no lab mishap.

This destruction of evidence was so blatant and should have been reason enough to throw out the entire case for prosecutorial misconduct. Surely we remember how long and hard Machiavelli protested against the innocentistis belittling of her qualifications. I pointed out that no "well trained" scientist could " accidentally store the evidence in a way that would guaranty the destruction of this crucial evidence. Of course, no intelligent response. His position was that of an amoral advocate for Mignini and cohorts, so no surprise.

The clip of Mignini was the best thing to see the light of day. I agree, I would like to know the context and who those participants were. It was laughable how Mignini spoke of the DNA evidence being crucial and then all most mid sentence realized - oops they have discredited that evidence - and looked toward the others and said "oh, but the coroner says it (DNA) was not crucial". Covering his stupidity. And Amanada was so astute and clever as to trick all of them! And thanks to their investigative work they realized Lumumba was not guilty. Wow. What an embarrassIng display.

Question: when I watched the clip I was able to watch "part A" and not the full presentation. Is there more? Did I miss a part B?

 

[Grinder]

This destruction of evidence was so blatant and should have been reason enough to throw out the entire case for prosecutorial misconduct. Surely we remember how long and hard Machiavelli protested against the innocentistis belittling of her qualifications. I pointed out that no "well trained" scientist could " accidentally store the evidence in a way that would guaranty the destruction of this crucial evidence. Of course, no intelligent response. His position was that of an amoral advocate for Mignini and cohorts, so no surprise.

The clip of Mignini was the best thing to see the light of day. I agree, I would like to know the context and who those participants were. It was laughable how Mignini spoke of the DNA evidence being crucial and then all most mid sentence realized - oops they have discredited that evidence - and looked toward the others and said "oh, but the coroner says it (DNA) was not crucial". Covering his stupidity. And Amanada was so astute and clever as to trick all of them! And thanks to their investigative work they realized Lumumba was not guilty. Wow. What an embarrassIng display.

Question: when I watched the clip I was able to watch "part A" and not the full presentation. Is there more? Did I miss a part B?

At .net (I think not .org) the part A was posted with a promise a part B to come

 

[RWVBWL]

Greatly Led Astray

This is just sheer bull crap,
in my humble opinion, from Dr. Stefanoni about the crime scene down below:

CSI Lab Technician Patrizia Stefanoni May 22, 2009
p12

ANSWER – It has unfortunately happened also in this case that a kitten drove us crazy, because initially during the inspection, the inspection inside the house on Via della Pergola, hence the house where the corpse has been found, unfortunately we had been greatly led astray, almost fooled by the fact that a cat, evidently wounded, had introduced itself in the apartment let’s say on the floor below the victim’s one [apartment], evidently there were glasses on the ground, broken [glasses] in other words which had been produced by entering in the apartment, because the keys could not be found, and therefore this kitten unfortunately wounded itself and left blood everywhere, obviously forcing us to do a mad [incredible, in the sense of quantitatively demanding and fatiguing] sampling work since we thought that somebody clearly…in other words I don’t know [it’s very idiomatic, “non so insomma” is like interjecting “I mean” in the speech] connected to the crime [had wounded himself or had been wounded] and hence had bled, instead it had indeed been a kitten. After the determination [“appunto” in this context is untraslatable, another sort of interjection, a bit like “er…”] of the first analysis on these samples, on the nature and typology, [then] comes the out-and-out first treatment, which is that of abstraction.

Why?
Because the cops broke into the boyz flat at 4:28:52. On Nov. 2, 2007

There is publicly viewable video of the investigators breaking into and then walking inside the flat from Nov. 2nd,
BUT it stops after showing Giacomo's marijuana plants that Meredith was supposed to water, it stops before going into any of the boyz bedrooms, so we never get to see if any blood was in there mere hours after Miss Kercher was discovered murdered.

I'd like to see that full downstairs video from Nov. 2, 2007
and compare the blood drops to what was found err shown, on Nov. 3, 2007,
which we can see on video then, which greatly led astray, Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni.

Surely she has seen the 1st video footage shot downstairs on Nov. 2nd.
Heck, maybe she even went inside the downstairs apartment that day, wouldn't you?

Question Dr. Stefanoni:
Was there blood on Stefano's bed and and on his comforter then on Nov. 2nd?

Or did the cat scrunch up Stefano's comforter and leave blood on it and his bed after the Flyin' Squad broke in?




Hey Grinder,
if you have a few moments,
can you please start to dig into the Downstairs Crime Scene?

Here's that link again,
http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/blood-evidence-downstairs-apartment/
you can see screen grab photos of the bloods drops and Stefano's bed.

BUT they were shot on Nov. 3rd.
after the cat supposedly cut itself,
per Dr. Stefanoni, on the broken glass from the police breaking+entering the downstairs apartment on Nov. 2nd.

Where is the whole video shot from Nov. 2nd from downstairs?
There were 2 videographers shooting the crime scene that day.
Why are the bedrooms and small bathroom video clips missing from the Nov. 2nd video?

On Nov. 3rd,
why is it that only Stefano's bed is messed up, with blood on it.
Like Meredith's.

With a possible bloody knife handle imprint on his bed.

Was Stefano's bed and comforter like this on Nov. 2nd?

Why have I not read of direct testimony from Stefano in Court
stating that he left his bed messed up with cats blood on it as he left on holiday?

If that is a bloody knife handle imprint at Marker C,
(not B as I wrote last night),

well it kinda changes the prosecutions version of the Meredith's murder, doesn't it Colpevolisti?
RW



PS - If anyone wants to watch copies of the publicly viewable Crime Scene videos, here's the links, courtesy of Methos:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10276559&postcount=4068

The Nov 2 and Nov 3 Part 2 vidz show the Downstairs Crime Scene...


PSS - Hi CarbonJam72,
It could be the same knife,
but then again, I'd really like to see some measurements on it's width,
as we've seen was shown on Miss Kercher's bed imprint...

 

[analemma]

New Article from Douglas Preston;
http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2015/04/amanda-knox-suffers-stress-money-problems-after-trial/

 

[Grinder]

Hey Grinder,
if you have a few moments,
can you please start to dig into the Downstairs Crime Scene?

Here's that link again,
http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/blood-evidence-downstairs-apartment/
you can see screen grab photos of the bloods drops and Stefano's bed.

RW I do think this is interesting but others here may have better resources.

Btw - nice to see you hope the surf is up

 

[Strozzi]

Someone on this board (sorry I don't remember who) pointed out two years ago that as the police started to kick in the door to the guys' downstairs flat the cat, no matter where it might have been in the flat and certainly had it been near the door, would have fled to another part of the flat and hidden and would not have cut itself on the broken door glass as it littered the floor.

 

[analemma]

New Article from Douglas Preston;
http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2015/04/amanda-knox-suffers-stress-money-problems-after-trial/

This is really weird.
This article has a link to another RADAR article
[URL="http://radaronline.com/photos/meredith-kercher-murder-evidence-photos-amanda-knox-acquitted/photo/1030682/"[/URL]
titled "Did Amanda Knox Deserve To Be Found Not Guilty Of Murder? See The Evidence That Couldn’t Convict Her "
This article contains a slide show that is about Profesor Gill trashing all the supposed DNA evidence and some other questions, but the Comments section has comments from a YEAR AGO that are a Troll fest with more lices than PMF and TJMK put together.
I am glad that RADAR moved away form CH, but they better get their technical act together
The linked to article is really a fuster cluck.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi ya'll,
I've posted a few pix last night + today,
what is interesting to me, right now,
is the location of the possible bloody knife handle imprint seen downstairs on Stefano's bed near Marker C.

That darn cat!
It apparently left blood, which kind of looks like a knife handle imprint, near the edge of the Stefano's bed,
much like in the same location where the bloody knife handle imprint is seen upstairs on Meredith's bed.
Have a look again, or watch the video from Nov. 3rd, Part 2...

 

[sept79]

.
.
.
But I can't square how all the judges went along with everything, every step of the way. The way the group think set-in, as Judge Hellman recently described how he got the cold shoulder after his acquittals. I'm still struggling with that. It really was something of a witch hunt, and that environment, inflamed by the media coverage - matters.

The ability to suspend disbelief among the judiciary is something I can't quite square with my expectations of a professional judiciary. I believe the 2013 ISC reversal was pure kabooki theater to deflect a political-judicial crisis with the Burlesconi forces. But the early judges in the case, their refusal to allow and require full and fair discovery, their refusal to doubt Guede and Curatolo, and even the police and prosecutor claims. It's truly difficult to grasp, and worthy of a full, slow careful methodical deconstruction of each and every element. (Before carting them all off to jail, imo).

'Reasonable doubt' was relegated to the back burner by the convicting judiciary.

 

[Planigale]

I agree that the issue of hitting the American girl twice in interrogation was no big issue for the police or prosecution. The two hits were pretty insignificant compared to the gravity of the crime being investigated, and certainly not a consideration as they weighed what to do with the American girl and her alibi boyfriend. In keeping with character, the PLE stayed the course.

Mignini asked Napoleoni the necessary cursory question, "Was she hit?", and got the expected answer that she was not hit. When later asked about it on camera by a foreign journalist, Mignini explained it away by saying maybe she got bumped from behind. It was a small room.

I've always imagined it was a Gibbs type hit to wake her up when she nodded off. From the police pov no abuse just a 'Pay attention DiNozzo'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqMUuOPsa0o

 

[Grinder]

I think that any analysis of how this all happened needs to remember where it happened and what sort of a place Italy is. Italy is the birthplace of both the Mafia and Fascism. Italy has a country within it, the Vatican.

Many in Italy seem to actually believe the teachings of the Catholic Church which to me is basically a cult. It wasn't that long ago that people here in the US actually believed in witches and the old dunking stool.

I think that Mignini et al. believed after a short time that Amanda was a witch of some sort and if the evidence wasn't quite right it was because she had altered it with her powers. The reason Mignini can continue to hold office is that he represents the will of the majority. The witnesses came forward to help get the witch. The police did what was needed to get the witch.

Did the Salem witch hunters get criticism or praise?

I don't know how to get into minds of people with the sort of beliefs these people seem to have. That adds to how the PGP, that aren't of that ilk ,can't see the flaws in the case if not outright innocence. Watching them bring up Koko now is mind-boggling

oh well

 

[anglolawyer]

I think that any analysis of how this all happened needs to remember where it happened and what sort of a place Italy is. Italy is the birthplace of both the Mafia and Fascism. Italy has a country within it, the Vatican.

Many in Italy seem to actually believe the teachings of the Catholic Church which to me is basically a cult. It wasn't that long ago that people here in the US actually believed in witches and the old dunking stool.

I think that Mignini et al. believed after a short time that Amanda was a witch of some sort and if the evidence wasn't quite right it was because she had altered it with her powers. The reason Mignini can continue to hold office is that he represents the will of the majority. The witnesses came forward to help get the witch. The police did what was needed to get the witch.

Did the Salem witch hunters get criticism or praise?

I don't know how to get into minds of people with the sort of beliefs these people seem to have. That adds to how the PGP, that aren't of that ilk ,can't see the flaws in the case if not outright innocence. Watching them bring up Koko now is mind-boggling

oh well

Google translate gives dietrologia as 'conspiracy' but we know it means something slightly different. It's the idea that the obvious or simplest explanation is not the true one. Mignini seems addicted to it. No ordinary burglary, Amanda is very astute etc. Someone should ask The Great Mignini how many knives were seized from Patrick's place and Le Chic and tested.

 

[Grinder]

Google translate gives dietrologia as 'conspiracy' but we know it means something slightly different. It's the idea that the obvious or simplest explanation is not the true one. Mignini seems addicted to it. No ordinary burglary, Amanda is very astute etc. Someone should ask The Great Mignini how many knives were seized from Patrick's place and Le Chic and tested.

Brilliant, the knives that is. It's the dietrologia and true crimefaith. Look what people do in the name of religion. The PGP web sites are reminiscent of the cheering crowd screaming kill the witch.

In the past I have pointed out that in the beginning I could definitely see why the kids were suspects for many reasons. Once they moved along their faith sustained their beliefs in the "facts" of the crime.

 

[moije2]

I think that any analysis of how this all happened needs to remember where it happened and what sort of a place Italy is. Italy is the birthplace of both the Mafia and Fascism. Italy has a country within it, the Vatican.

Many in Italy seem to actually believe the teachings of the Catholic Church which to me is basically a cult. It wasn't that long ago that people here in the US actually believed in witches and the old dunking stool.

I think that Mignini et al. believed after a short time that Amanda was a witch of some sort and if the evidence wasn't quite right it was because she had altered it with her powers. The reason Mignini can continue to hold office is that he represents the will of the majority. The witnesses came forward to help get the witch. The police did what was needed to get the witch.

Did the Salem witch hunters get criticism or praise?

I don't know how to get into minds of people with the sort of beliefs these people seem to have. That adds to how the PGP, that aren't of that ilk ,can't see the flaws in the case if not outright innocence. Watching them bring up Koko now is mind-boggling

oh well

The element of religion/Catholicism and superstition/mythology that exists in this case is what really intrigues me. It has been said by a few journalists that Mignini is a devout or conservative Catholic. I don't know how that would be verified other than those reports. I would love to know more about him in that regard.

Recall the rite of Halloween where Mignini detailed the origins (they escape me right now)? His mind apparently thinks about these what I call superstitions in great detail. That is why perhaps your past efforts to clarify that the use of the word Satan by Mignini has not been documented. Relevant to him and perhaps his constituents but I would venture not so relevant to others of us. My mind just lumps rites of Halloween and whatever pagan origins all together under Satan or Satan under them. Whatever. But for them it is relevant such details thus let's call it a cultural mistake to use the "S" word.

 

[moije2]

Google translate gives dietrologia as 'conspiracy' but we know it means something slightly different. It's the idea that the obvious or simplest explanation is not the true one. Mignini seems addicted to it. No ordinary burglary, Amanda is very astute etc. Someone should ask The Great Mignini how many knives were seized from Patrick's place and Le Chic and tested.

I use the translation of dietro - behind - in my understanding of dietrology. It is not what one sees in front of their eyes but the mystery behind it. Which you of course know already.

 

[Grinder]

The element of religion/Catholicism and superstition/mythology that exists in this case is what really intrigues me. It has been said by a few journalists that Mignini is a devout or conservative Catholic. I don't know how that would be verified other than those reports. I would love to know more about him in that regard.

Recall the rite of Halloween where Mignini detailed the origins (they escape me right now)? His mind apparently thinks about these what I call superstitions in great detail. That is why perhaps your past efforts to clarify that the use of the word Satan by Mignini has not been documented. Relevant to him and perhaps his constituents but I would venture not so relevant to others of us. My mind just lumps rites of Halloween and whatever pagan origins all together under Satan or Satan under them. Whatever. But for them it is relevant such details thus let's call it a cultural mistake to use the "S" word.

While I still think it is important to be accurate in discussion and I could never find a quote of Mignini calling it a Satanic Rite, that doesn't mean I don't believe he is a whack job that believes in the occult. More just Mignini the fact that the entire culture he live surrounded my seems to ready for a witch trial at any time.

I'm not following the other murder charged to a young woman in Italy with no evidence but could she also be a witch?

 

[carbonjam72]

The element of religion/Catholicism and superstition/mythology that exists in this case is what really intrigues me. It has been said by a few journalists that Mignini is a devout or conservative Catholic. I don't know how that would be verified other than those reports. I would love to know more about him in that regard.

Recall the rite of Halloween where Mignini detailed the origins (they escape me right now)? His mind apparently thinks about these what I call superstitions in great detail. That is why perhaps your past efforts to clarify that the use of the word Satan by Mignini has not been documented. Relevant to him and perhaps his constituents but I would venture not so relevant to others of us. My mind just lumps rites of Halloween and whatever pagan origins all together under Satan or Satan under them. Whatever. But for them it is relevant such details thus let's call it a cultural mistake to use the "S" word.

Mignini's cohort Michele Giuttari invented from whole cloth the theory that a satanic sect was behind the Monster of Florence killings, and that the sexual mutilation of the female victims was a deliberate part of a satanic rite, that the killings had to occur during the height of sexual release to have the most power and effectiveness in their satanic rituals.

Giuttari's use of "algebraic witnesses" against Mario Vanni and Giancarlo Lotti (Lotti being a village idiot and witness against himself), is what enabled Giuttari to secure convictions against Vanni and Lotti for the MOF crimes, and overturn Pacciani's acquittal on appeal. The case against Pacciani was garbage, and Vanni and Lotti were obviously not his accomplices.

Pacciani died two days before his retrial was due to begin, and Vanni and Lotti were convicted as his accomplices in the MOF murders.

The issue of motive was never addressed by the courts, and the satanic angle was Giuttari's handiwork, based on the word of one of his witnesses, a homeless endstage alcoholic named Ghiribelli, and further developed with the aid of Carlizzi (the "psychic medium").
When Mignini went forward with his Narducci trail investigation, instigated by Carlizzi (according to Preston&Spezi in their book on the MOF), they again claimed the Narduccis and 20 people from Florence were part of a satanic sect that had hired Pacciani, Vanni and Lotti to secure the female body parts for their "satanic rituals".

When Mignini claimed the Kercher killing was related to "Halloween rites" and "violent orgies", it is all of a piece. This idea didn't just happen to occur to Mignini, it is precisely the same fraudulent hoax he and Giuttari were then perpetrating in the narducci trail cases, and for which he and Giuttari had just then been indicted.
Mignini's witnesses in the Narducci trail case he had then going on at the time of the Kercher killing, against the pharmicist Francesco Calamendrei, featured the same four "algebraic witnesses" from Giuttari's MOF case, and the assistance of Carlizzi.

Its just a massive fraud by Mignini and Giuttari, and I do not believe Mignini just happened to arrive independently at his conclusions, nor the language he used to communicate his story to the press. I believe Mignini is just an amoral low life criminal, masquerading as a public servant. He should be in jail for what he did in this case.

 

[Strozzi]

Hi ya'll,
I've posted a few pix last night + today,
what is interesting to me, right now,
is the location of the possible bloody knife handle imprint seen downstairs on Stefano's bed near Marker C.

That darn cat!
It apparently left blood, which kind of looks like a knife handle imprint, near the edge of the Stefano's bed,
much like in the same location where the bloody knife handle imprint is seen upstairs on Meredith's bed.
Have a look again, or watch the video from Nov. 3rd, Part 2...

It was pointed out that the knife imprint on Kercher's bedsheet was created when the murderer (Rudi) set the knife down on the bed, probably in the act of sitting down on her bed to remove a bloody shoe. Removing that shoe enabled Rudi to then walk to the bathroom with one shoe on and one shoe off, avoiding leaving a bloody shoeprint. This absence of a shoeprint puzzled the police who had difficulty comprehending the perpetrator's movements, while Mignini further interpreted it as proof that Amanda was involved as the lack of the expected shoeprints meant that Amanda cleaned up - without leaving telltale signs of cleaning. (Sick man, Mignini.)

Can you tell if there are marks or indications that Rudi sat in a similar position on the bed downstairs? Any sheet creases or other marks in a similar position and angle from where Rudi set down the knife? Is he known to be right or left handed? Would that have a bearing on how he carried and to which side he would have set down the knife? Or in which direction he laid the blade?

 

[RWVBWL]

Satanic Sex Game Gone Wrong

While I still think it is important to be accurate in discussion and I could never find a quote of Mignini calling it a Satanic Rite, that doesn't mean I don't believe he is a whack job that believes in the occult. More just Mignini the fact that the entire culture he live surrounded my seems to ready for a witch trial at any time.

I'm not following the other murder charged to a young woman in Italy with no evidence but could she also be a witch?

Hi Grinder,
If you have a moment,
watch this recent video from CBS and 48 Hours correspondent Peter Van Sant,
it gives us some input on Mignini's Satanic Theory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqjTl2D3uwA

"They brought Amanda Knox in for 14 hours of interrogation by a group of men who break Mafia suspects, at the end of that she gave this false confession."

"The prosecutor, Guliano Mignini, (this is a true story, cause we interviewed the Medium who has since died), he would, he would consult a Spiritual Medium who spoke to a dead Priest, there was a bloody palm print found on the wall, and the Priest told the Medium who told Mignini that this was a Satanic Sexual Ritualized killing. That's where that came from."

 

[RWVBWL]

The element of religion/Catholicism and superstition/mythology that exists in this case is what really intrigues me. It has been said by a few journalists that Mignini is a devout or conservative Catholic. I don't know how that would be verified other than those reports. I would love to know more about him in that regard.

Recall the rite of Halloween where Mignini detailed the origins (they escape me right now)? His mind apparently thinks about these what I call superstitions in great detail. That is why perhaps your past efforts to clarify that the use of the word Satan by Mignini has not been documented. Relevant to him and perhaps his constituents but I would venture not so relevant to others of us. My mind just lumps rites of Halloween and whatever pagan origins all together under Satan or Satan under them. Whatever. But for them it is relevant such details thus let's call it a cultural mistake to use the "S" word.

Hi Moije2,
This book is a great place to start reading more about Perugia and PM Mignini, his up bring and beliefs.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Fatal-Gift-Beauty-Trials/dp/0307588599
I wish that I still had my online copy, which I deleted after Raff and Amanda were 1st set free by Judge Hellmann's Court back in 2011, there is some great info in Nina Burleigh's book...


This short passage on page 147+148 of her book describes lil' Mignini living next to a 16th century massive stone dungeon known as Torcoletti Prison that was a womens prison in the 1950's and lil' Mignini watched them:
https://books.google.com/books?id=X...a burleigh mignini stenography school&f=false