Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[katy_did]

But it's critically important to take into account the relative risk - legal and (to a lesser degree) reputational - here. I don't doubt that the Mail invented huge chunks of that Seattle party story. But their target - Knox - was at the time a mere private citizen who was sitting in a prison cell in Italy under suspicion of murder. That's a wholly different kettle of fish from printing serious, within-quotes accusations of physical and racial abuse by Perugia law enforcement personnel.

I personally know (and work with) plenty of people within the UK media industry (though most of them are in broadcast media or higher-end printed media), and even during the worst excesses of the British tabloid press (and 2007 was probably in the middle of the worst period), they simply would not lay themselves open to high-profile defamation cases by the likes of the police and prosecutors in Italy. And it's a given that printing untrue accusations of physical and racial abuse by such individuals would carry a very high likelihood of just such an outcome. So I feel hugely confident that any media outlet - including the Mail - at any time - including 2007 - would have absolutely checked at the very least that Lumumba really had spoken those words before printing them. And as I also just said, I wouldn't be surprised if they also double-checked with Lumumba that he stood behind those words before putting them into print.

Is being able to prove that the person actually said those words a defence against criminal slander if you repeat or publish them? Patrick couldn't prove he was ill-treated any more than Amanda could, and the Mail must have known that. I'd have thought they were opening themselves up to charges simply by publishing the allegations.

 

[Diocletus]

Where's John Kercher? The guy wrote a book about this case, yet it comes time for a family statement, we get Arline? Who repeats the old "we're confused" canard?

Come to think of it, though, wasn't she the spokesman last time there was an acquittal? Am I right about that? So, Johns roll seems to be to come out whenever long knives are warranted, and Arline is the "we just don't understand" face? Odd.

 

[toto]

Lots of good questions. I'm of the opinion (on quite vague foundation) that Guede cannot reopen his case, no matter what the outcome or finding in this case.

Second, Guede couldn't and shouldn't want to. Guede accepted and received a fast track reduction. He got the sweatheart sentence of his dreams, 16 years for a murder where he had no defense.

Guede is now available for day release, he's gotten past this. Whereas if he is re-sentenced without a fast track discount, he could get 30 years again, or even life.

So I don't think Guede is able to challenge his current conviction. Nor do I think he would want to. Rudy Guede is really and truly the only winner in this whole process. Even Mignini will suffer from his actions in this case.

Rudy Guede, 'the dog' and 'the professor' among perhpas dozens of other personnae, somehow bested them all. Rudy Guede is much more of a "Forrest Gump" than Raf.

One thing I am sure of: if Guede does nothing, then that speaks volumes about the innocence of A and R (to the PGP community - the rest of us know this already!)

 

[carbonjam72]

Rudy is a Piece of Work...

One thing I am sure of: if Guede does nothing, then that speaks volumes about the innocence of A and R (to the PGP community - the rest of us know this already!)

Just saw this article link, heres a google translation:

http://www.ilsecoloxix.it/p/italia/2015/03/29/ARmnRdxD-omicidio_meredith_chiuso.shtml

Rome - As the curtain falls on the involvement of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in the murder of Meredith Kercher, a question continues to dominate. That is, since Rudy Guede was convicted of murder in competition with others, who are these "others"? Those who expected new claims in this regard by dell'ivoriano, will be disappointed. "I eight years ago I told my truth, if for judges is not reliable, I can only take note: the case is finally closed for me."

Twenty-nine years, the chiseled physique by exercises in the gymnasium of the prison Mammagialla of Viterbo, the cell full of books to prepare for the final exam and the thesis for a degree in Literature with historiographical, Rudy confided anxieties and hopes lawyer Nicodmeno Dear who, together with his colleague Valter Biscotti, is in charge of his defense. The meeting dates back a few days ago, before the judgment of the Supreme Court, but the conversation inevitably revolves around the fate of Amanda and Raffaele. Which, to be honest, they were never brought in by Rudy, who was limited to mention two strangers who killed Meredith while he was locked in the bathroom.

"I'm not worried about the fate of those two - insists the Ivorian -. I just want to think about my future. I want to graduate and be forgotten. In prison I got a degree in social sciences (at the institute masterful Santa Rosa, ed) and if Amanda and Raffaele are free to start a new life, I hope to do the same. " As for the poor Meredith, an innocent victim of his fury, Rudy Guede continues to deny killing her and remembers "having apologized to his family for not calling for help in time." Sull'estraneità the murder of Amanda and Raffaele was filtered by the way, five years ago, a confidence from prison in Viterbo. Another detainee, Mario Alessi, a bricklayer convicted of the crime of little Tommaso Onofri, Tommy, had told him that he had received the outpouring of Rudy who had denied the presence of the two boyfriends at home Mez. Circumstance then denied by Guede.
In prison since November 20, 2007, definitely convicted to 16 years imprisonment, the Ivorian will soon receive permission to leave. "In prison I always kept a correct attitude, I have engaged in the study, I hope that the judges will take into account." Tight angle the hypothesis of an action to request a review of the process. Although his lawyers Gentile and cookies waiting to read the reasons of the verdict of the Supreme Court.

 

[MichaelB]

Well, I have to confess to some feeling of schadenfreude vis a vis the guilter response.

The Machine and Stilicho are gone. Jumped off bridges for all I know.

Scant words out of the likes of SomeAlibi, Hugo, Fiona. The dumber ones of the bunch--bard, bedelia, smacker, johnQ, etc--have been reduced to mumbling nonsense, like some inmates in an asylum.

A few of the nuts are reinventing whole new conspiarcy theories and trying to convince themselves that this will never end because of all of the "new lawsuits" and "complaints" that will be filed. The ECHR will even step in! Lol.

Speaking of all of this, though, where is Machiavelli to explain to us how the mafia and masons rigged this thing? I'm curious. But Skeptical.

 

[Agatha]

Whilst the mod team entirely understands the temptation to gloat, posters in this thread are reminded that all members of this forum are protected by rule 12. Please temper your posts with a full understanding that you are expected to address the argument, and not the arguers.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Agatha

 

[Kestrel]

Was Rudy allowed out of prison to take classes?

 

[Antony]

I don't know that repasting their bilge here serves much purpose. And is their extreme emotional investment in a matter of no rational interest to them really so unlike our own?

I think there is a difference, in that we are concerned for the accountability of the legal process. It's not just about 2 individuals wrongly prosecuted and imprisoned, it's about every victim of miscarriages of justice. Now that Amanda and Raff are out of jeopardy (barring the illegal conviction for callunnia which will ultimately be quashed following an ECtHR ruling), there are any number of other people in similar positions (Sabrina and Cosima Misseri, for example) and no doubt people here will turn their attention elsewhere. There is also the wish to educate the rest of society that police and courts are not automatically to be trusted.

With the guilters, it's as though the process of arrest, prosecution and punishment is simply there to make them feel good. Now that Amanda and Raff are out of their clutches, they feel cheated and thwarted, like a ravenous predator whose prey gets away. I think that, subconsciously, their reaction is that being innocent of the crime is an unfair tactic on the part of the accused: "Shame! They turned out to be innocent! How lucky for them and how unfair on us!"

 

[Planigale]

I think there is a difference, in that we are concerned for the accountability of the legal process. It's not just about 2 individuals wrongly prosecuted and imprisoned, it's about every victim of miscarriages of justice. Now that Amanda and Raff are out of jeopardy (barring the illegal conviction for callunnia which will ultimately be quashed following an ECtHR ruling), there are any number of other people in similar positions (Sabrina and Cosima Misseri, for example) and no doubt people here will turn their attention elsewhere. There is also the wish to educate the rest of society that police and courts are not automatically to be trusted.

With the guilters, it's as though the process of arrest, prosecution and punishment is simply there to make them feel good. Now that Amanda and Raff are out of their clutches, they feel cheated and thwarted, like a ravenous predator whose prey gets away. I think that, subconsciously, their reaction is that being innocent of the crime is an unfair tactic on the part of the accused: "Shame! They turned out to be innocent! How lucky for them and how unfair on us!"

I agree, I have previously said that this is just a consequence of systemic failures. The economist article referenced above put it well.The present govenmen is reforming civil law and perhaps they'll follow up with a reform of the criminal law system.

 

[toto]

Carbonjam72
Thanks for this: it seems the obvious quotation to use as an argument against the A and R guilters. Yummi seemed to think that Guede would not receive less of a sentence if somehow he got another trial, which might be an incentive to him if he was genuinely outraged (but maybe parole opportunities may go). But if he more or less sticks to the line you quoted then the guilters can't really get much mileage out of it.

The meeting dates back a few days ago, before the judgment of the Supreme Court, but the conversation inevitably revolves around the fate of Amanda and Raffaele. Which, to be honest, they were never brought in by Rudy, who was limited to mention two strangers who killed Meredith while he was locked in the bathroom.

"I'm not worried about the fate of those two - insists the Ivorian -. I just want to think about my future. I want to graduate and be forgotten. In prison I got a degree in social sciences (at the institute masterful Santa Rosa, ed) and if Amanda and Raffaele are free to start a new life, I hope to do the same. "

I would still like the calunnia matter re: Amanda to be resolved. It is mainly this and the "who else did it ?" theme that they will continue to batter A and R with.

 

[Antony]

Oh god. Taking Italy to the ECHR over Guede's conviction isn't going to reveal two other killers. Though it may actually finally put the multiple attacker theory to bed, so p'raps it would be a good thing. For the Kerchers it's just going to prolong the agony though. They need to cut Maresca loose.

Well, if the Kerchers can pursue the action from the basis of: "You lied to us about there being multiple killers!" then it might be a healthy development. Don't know if it's within the ECtHR scope, though.

 

[Bill Williams]

Where's John Kercher? The guy wrote a book about this case, yet it comes time for a family statement, we get Arline? Who repeats the old "we're confused" canard?

Come to think of it, though, wasn't she the spokesman last time there was an acquittal? Am I right about that? So, Johns roll seems to be to come out whenever long knives are warranted, and Arline is the "we just don't understand" face? Odd.

I think they should be left alone, and be spared the, "Where are they now?" questions. Mrs. Kercher was probably a victim of a drive-by journalist camped out on their doorstep dying to ask a, "How do you feel now?" question; maybe get Arline crying or something for the 11 pm news video.

 

[kwill]

You misunderstood. According to the quote you shared, Italy pays, approximately, a total of 12 million Euros to various people found to have been falsely imprisoned each year. It's not saying that people who are falsely imprisoned receive 12 million Euros for each year they were imprisoned. That would be a bit excessive, considering that 12 million alone would make launch someone into the category of "extremely, close to super, rich". That would mean someone mistakenly held for 20 years would receive 240 million Euros, clearly a ridiculous proposition. With that kind of payday, people would be clamoring to be falsely imprisoned.

This has nothing to do with your main point, of course.

Thank you for the clarification. Ambiguous, but I should have read more carefully & realized what it meant.

 

[kwill]

I thought the statute Numbers showed a few posts upthread, was that the limit for comp was set at about 500,000 euros (and change). So that the most that could be had. I can't imagine Italy will put up much of a fight in comping Amanda and Raf for this.

Is the comp determined by a government office? I would think so, and then defendants can challenge in court if unhappy. Otherwise, no one would ever get paid. (of course they only pay 12 million Euros a year, doesn't sound like a lot given how crazy the court system.

You are of course correct. I misread the article that Numbers posted.

 

[kwill]

There is a certain level of lawyerly BS in this statement.

Where the 48 million Euros figure come from?

From me being a pinheaded goof. Sorry!

 

[Diocletus]

I think they should be left alone, and be spared the, "Where are they now?" questions. Mrs. Kercher was probably a victim of a drive-by journalist camped out on their doorstep dying to ask a, "How do you feel now?" question; maybe get Arline crying or something for the 11 pm news video.

Nobody is going to bother the Kerchers. That said, I think there is a serious discussion to be had about "victim" families participating in criminal trial processes prior to the determination of guilt. It was an unmitigated disaster in this case for everyone, including the "victims" who handled the whole situation very poorly.

 

[JREF2010]

Killers have walked before and will walk again.
Must be hard to take for the Kercher family.

I see some posters are wondering what to do now. The option of attacking the ‘guliters’, cops, witnesses etc and more importantly the victim’s family and the victim herself long into the future is always available.

I agree this is a sad issue with Rudy walking, somehow fooling the system.

Somehow Rudy slipped away from the entire media, due to the hate focused on the wrong person, the media and prosecution, and Maresca didnt seem interested in Rudy Guede's half-truths.

I look forward to it, if Maori follows through with filing charges against Rudy for blaming his client Raffaele. Maybe Maori will be the one to get the truth for the Kerchers?

 

[carbonjam72]

Why would Mrs kercher ever think they were guilty? Press should ask that.

Nobody is going to bother the Kerchers. That said, I think there is a serious discussion to be had about "victim" families participating in criminal trial processes prior to the determination of guilt. It was an unmitigated disaster in this case for everyone, including the "victims" who handled the whole situation very poorly.

I'm finding a weirdly curious parallel between Mrs Kercher's saying she "doesn't want to talk about that girl", and Rudy Guede saying he isn't concerned about what happens to Amanda and Raf, just what happens in his own life (although he did apologize to his adopted family for not calling for help, so there's that).

And, Mrs Kercher wants to visit Rudy Guede in prison. Sadly they seem to have a lot in common in regard to denial and cognitive dissonance. Strange to say, but I can imagine her coming away from such a visit, charmed by Rudy, and blaming others for luring or leading him astray.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...h-Kerchers-mother-We-have-waited-in-vain.html

"Our family has always expressed faith in the Italian justice system," Mrs Kercher said. "Now we feel let down because the crime has not been resolved and it's finished like this with a question mark.

"The verdict is a failure of the Italian justice system."

Mrs Kercher said she had read in the newspapers about Miss Knox's comments following the verdict on Friday, in which she described Miss Kercher as "my friend" who "deserved so much in this life".

Asked whether she believed Miss Knox was a friend of her daughter's, Mrs Kercher said she did not know and that "she didn't want to talk about that girl".

 

[carbonjam72]

I agree this is a sad issue with Rudy walking, somehow fooling the system.

Somehow Rudy slipped away from the entire media, due to the hate focused on the wrong person, the media and prosecution, and Maresca didnt seem interested in Rudy Guede's half-truths.

I look forward to it, if Maori follows through with filing charges against Rudy for blaming his client Raffaele. Maybe Maori will be the one to get the truth for the Kerchers?

I think that's actually way more likely than Amanda seeking further legal trouble, other than seeking compensation from the state and ECHR on the calunnia. Why would she bother or want to be involved with these criminals?

Raf's family is a different story. It's their country, and they go hog wild over insults and lies, etc. Apparently for good reason. But I think they are far more likely to leave no stone unturned, and nail everyone who hurt them.

 

[MichaelB]

Arline Kercher wants to meet Rudy Guede! Wow, just when you think you've seen it all.

Meredith Kercher's mother: 'We have waited in vain' http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...h-Kerchers-mother-We-have-waited-in-vain.html

Mrs Kercher suggested she may make a prison visit to see Rudy Guede, who is serving a 16-year jail sentence for the murder of Miss Kercher, but said she didn't know whether it would be possible.