Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

Well, I have to confess to some feeling of schadenfreude vis a vis the guilter response.

The Machine and Stilicho are gone. Jumped off bridges for all I know.

Scant words out of the likes of SomeAlibi, Hugo, Fiona. The dumber ones of the bunch--bard, bedelia, smacker, johnQ, etc--have been reduced to mumbling nonsense, like some inmates in an asylum.

A few of the nuts are reinventing whole new conspiarcy theories and trying to convince themselves that this will never end because of all of the "new lawsuits" and "complaints" that will be filed. The ECHR will even step in! Lol.

Speaking of all of this, though, where is Machiavelli to explain to us how the mafia and masons rigged this thing? I'm curious. But Skeptical.

The Skeptics are now Bystanders.

Like we all should - the day of the complete and utter exoneration, I went to the local Freemasons and made a donation.

 

[lonepinealex]

Oh god. Taking Italy to the ECHR over Guede's conviction isn't going to reveal two other killers. Though it may actually finally put the multiple attacker theory to bed, so p'raps it would be a good thing. For the Kerchers it's just going to prolong the agony though. They need to cut Maresca loose.

 

[carbonjam72]

Well as I said a couple of pages ago, to me it's clear that the innocencisti won both the battles and the war, leaving the ISC with only one option to save face - complete exoneration. They didn't throw the guilters so much as a "reasonable doubt" bone. They are factually innocent, and no backsies, bitches!

Within a few days there will be no online arena for the guilters to fight their battle on anyway, except the remaining forums. It's not like people are going to continue to churn out articles forever. I hope for Amanda and Raff's sake the press lose interest soon. They need to get on with their lives.

Totally agree. There is though, a gaggle of cases in the italian courts, courtesy of Mignini and the prosecution and police and Maresca and so forth. Hopefully those will just start falling down like bowling pins now. I think the party's over, now its just time for sweeping up.

Too bad about the 'no sororities' thing though. So what then is Selene's relationship to Holloway? Hathaway? Haywood? Whatever Meredith mean girl Brit friend is named. Is that just a myth? Selene must have some reason for her continued, relentless and bizarre involvement?

 

[katy_did]

That sounds remarkably like reinstating the Hellmann verdict, which we were told was not possible. Come to that, the outcome of yesterday's hearing correspond exactly to Hellmann's verdicts - down to Amanda's (illegal) 3-year sentence for callunia.

Yes, obviously reinstating Hellmann was never technically possible, but if they came down on his (and Conti, Vecchiotti and Gill's) side on the crucial DNA/contamination issue, then it almost amounts to the same thing. If the SC rejected the idea the defence have to prove contamination, and so rejected the knife and bra clasp, then we'd be left with a ruling which looks very much like Hellmann's. The truth is that the contamination issue was what really separated Hellmann from the others - not even Massei and Nencini would've convicted without the knife and bra clasp - so there would be little point in sending the case back for yet another retrial.

 

[lonepinealex]

Totally agree. There is though, a gaggle of cases in the italian courts, courtesy of Mignini and the prosecution and police and Maresca and so forth. Hopefully those will just start falling down like bowling pins now. I think the party's over, now its just time for sweeping up.

Too bad about the 'no sororities' thing though. So what then is Selene's relationship to Holloway? Hathaway? Haywood? Whatever Meredith mean girl Brit friend is named. Is that just a myth? Selene must have some reason for her continued, relentless and bizarre involvement?

Maybe they're just mates? Let's face it, if any of us was a journalist we might have written articles about the case too, though we have no direct connection to it. Lots of people have. Maybe Selene just got really into it, though from a guilter standpoint, and uses her job to air her views?

We definitely don't have sororities and fraternities!

 

[Numbers]

From that article:



What the heck? Since they didn't record his interviews, how could they possibly show that he misled them into -- wait for it -- arresting him? Is that really what Canestrini is suggesting here?

That Raffaele forfeits his 48 million euros if they can show that he fooled the detectives into thinking he was guilty?

There is a certain level of lawyerly BS in this statement.

Where the 48 million Euros figure come from?

 

[Bill Williams]

Yes, obviously reinstating Hellmann was never technically possible, but if they came down on his (and Conti, Vecchiotti and Gill's) side on the crucial DNA/contamination issue, then it almost amounts to the same thing. If the SC rejected the idea the defence have to prove contamination, and so rejected the knife and bra clasp, then we'd be left with a ruling which looks very much like Hellmann's. The truth is that the contamination issue was what really separated Hellmann from the others - not even Massei and Nencini would've convicted without the knife and bra clasp - so there would be little point in sending the case back for yet another retrial.

Who knows the technicality of reinstating Hellmann.... but it certainly seems like an identical conclusion. The motivations report will explain all: which is the best part of the Italian system. (When the Hellmann motivations report came in well before its 90 day time-limit, one main .ORG denizen said, "This reads like an FOA press release!")

So with the Gogerty-Marriott PR firm now out of business, I wonder who will be writing Bruno's report for him?

My vote goes to RandyN!

 

[Bill Williams]

A seriously good idea for the Kerchers if they want to understand what efforts Italy really expended in finding who murdered their daughter Meredith; from:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/28/europe/amanda-knox-guilt-innocence/

Maresca says the Kerchers could try to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights and argue that Italy failed to find those culpable of killing their beloved daughter and sister but they have yet to make that decision.

"If they think Italy hasn't fulfilled the duty, they could sue Italy," Canestrini told CNN.

Such a claim could be made based on the final conviction handed down to Rudy Guede, a man from the Ivory Coast who was convicted for his role in Kercher's murder in 2008 in a fast-track trial that is still under seal.

When the high court ruled definitively on his case in 2010, they wrote explicitly in their reasoning that he was one of three assailants but did not name who they were.

You beat me to it! Still, Barbie Nadeau continues as a trusted, intrepid reporter!

 

[toto]

motivations and rudi guede

Presumably the motivations report will have to say that, regarding the previous instructions of the previous Supreme Court ruling, the Nencini trial

Did not (according to PMF translation) sufficiently:
“remedy ..the critical aspects of argumentation, operating a global and unitary examination of evidence..”

Did not: (to paraphrase)
“resolve the overall assessment of each clue and integrate them successfully”

And thus did not
“osmotically demonstrate the presence of the two defendents in the locus delicti commissi”

Or
“delineate the subjective position of the co-conspirators of Guede”

Or successfully outline a series of
“hypothetical situations”

[Such as] “an unwanted sex game..[or] the forcing of an erotic game…which blew out of control.”

Do posters here think that the SC motivations report will leave vague the idea that there were other assailant(s).? Would it be better,(if unlikely) that they agree that it was possible there was only one assailant? If it is true that Guede could then appeal against his conviction and get another trial would this be a good thing?

On the one hand he would have to give evidence to have any credibility and it might be interesting to have him cross examined. On the other hand he could spout off about Amanda and Raffaele (natural justice tells me he should be able to just as Amanda should have been free to say she was slapped) and Amanda and Rafaelle would not have barristers to be able to cross question him and the prosecutors may not be so inclined to look after A and R’s interests? So although Guede would presumably have his sentence reconfirmed there would be a bit more bad PR for A and R as far as the PGP community would have it?

On the other hand if Guede did not apply for retrial and the motivations report just referred to the fact that other assailant(s) were responsible (but not A and R) would this be satisfactory, in terms of how the PGP would spin it?

 

[Numbers]

As someone who's fallen out of the loop over the past year or so, can someone tell me where things are at with the ECHR?

As far as known to the public, Amanda's application remains in queue. It has not been rejected as inadmissible, so for now, knowing that is was filed on time and raises important questions, we can assume it will be admissible.

I wish I had more insight into the timing of ECHR, but I don't.

 

[Bill Williams]

Do posters here think that the SC motivations report will leave vague the idea that there were other assailant(s).? Would it be better,(if unlikely) that they agree that it was possible there was only one assailant? If it is true that Guede could then appeal against his conviction and get another trial would this be a good thing?

All will be revealed within 90 days.

But so far, ISC (Section 5) seems to have all-but reinstated Hellmann. And Hellmann concluded that it was not up to his court to rule definitively on the issue of multiple attackers, just on whether or not AK and/or RS were part of a multiple attack.

Once AK and RS have been eliminated as, "they did not do the act", or the other acts "did not happen," it's left to some other part of the Italian system to solve the mystery.

The strangest comment that still lingers is this: now that AK and RS have been exonerated, it remains a mystery as to how Meredith died.

 

[Numbers]

I hope that Maresca leaves the Kerchers' lives as soon as possible, and that will maybe give them a chance to find the truth. They are intelligent people, and it would only take one of them to start asking questions about the stories they've been fed...

Optimistic I know!

Probably the civil suits in Italy involving the Kerchers and Maresca are finished with this CSC acquittal.

 

[carbonjam72]

Thinking about the verdict a little more. As I understand, the isc went beyond simply acquitting, and affirmatively absolved the defendants from any involvement in the crime (declared that they didn't do it).

If my understanding is right, I think that this shows a high degree of hostility to the prior decisions, especially Chieffi and Nencini's directed verdict. I expect to see a very interesting motivation report, and I think it some respects it is going to strongly call Chieffi into question and serve as an indictment against Chieffi for overreach and stupidity.

I think they can weasle their way around attacking Chieffi. He said the DNA test in the knife would be decisive for one thing, so they could rest on that.

But I also agree, there's so much that Chieffi got wrong its hard to see how they don't make some corrections to the logic applied in the case; certainly in regard to importing judicial truths from other cases, and requiring contamination to be proven. And possibly re-evaluating witnesses like Curatolo without actually hearing them. Maybe even access to discovery, and insisting that suspect interviews be performed in accordance with the law.

I agree, should be interesting to see. Glad its done.

 

[Numbers]

Mach might know the answer to this, and I'm pretty sure he would actually. But my guess is that the issue of aggravated calunnia got sent back down to Nencini from ISC when they overturned Hellman.

So Nencnini ruled on it, and found there was aggravated calunnia. Therefore ISC this time was obliged to either accept or reject nencini's conclusion of aggravated calunnia. Since the previous ISC panel had already confirmed the calunnia conviction from Hellman, the ISC this time was rejecting Nencini's finding of aggravation, and I'm guessing here, declining to overturn their previous finding of calunnia from Hellman (I think they could have overturned the previous conviction if they wanted to, but that would be unbelievably self-contradictory).

I also agree that ISC's original intent is to continue blaming Amanda for the statements extracted under coercion, because otherwise, Italy's legal system comes across like a bunch of violent thugs terrorizing innocent people into false confessions.

I have no doubt ECHR will find Amanda rights were violated, and the calunnia will get thrown out. We can look forward to another interview from Patrick Lumumba , not to be confused with the political figure with whom he tried to fabricate a kinship, decrying the rampant racism at play in allowing Amanda's claims to be accepted by ECHR.

The thing about Patricks position, is that the public sympathy for his plight, and the tabloid's willingness to pay for his interviews, can only lessen as realization of the gross injustice that has occurred and in which he is now playing a part. He is a victim yes, but he is in the act of shooting himself in both feet, and then putting them both in his mouth.

I heard Raf has a press conference scheduled for Monday at 12 noon in Italy. Good for him. I imagine he may have something to say about his ongoing trial in Honor Bound. WOuld be great if he asked for the trial of Rudy Guede to get "unsealed" so every on can see the truth about what Guede said about the crime initially.

By the way, where is CoulsdonUK in all this? CUK was delighting in the prospect of Raf's trial for Honor Bound coming at the same time as this verdict was due. I suppose CUK will lament that the family's wishes to affirm the convictions were not met, and thus they were cheated.

Come on CoulsdonUK, come back here and take your victory lap!

I agree with your statements, including those on the CSC.

 

[carbonjam72]

Well, 36 hours on and still there's pretty much zero sign of sober reflection among the pro-guilt commentators - let alone any articulation of doubt or regret over the "certainties" that they were parroting for so many years. Instead, yet more of the nasty mix of rationalisation, accusations, and self-comfort, mainly based on the (obviously comforting) supposition that Knox and Sollecito will still suffer for the rest of their lives.

One post from "Thoughtful" this morning epitomised an important facet of the mindset of so many pro-guilt commentators:

Folks, I just want to say that I am still here, reading everything you say, but I have found myself unable to post. Every single possible word falls short. I am literally speechless. I am thinking that stilicho and The Machine may be feeling the same.

Many other pro-guilt commentators have expressed similar extreme emotional responses. I think it speaks very loudly to their deep internal motivations around this debate. I think they need, deep inside, for Knox and Sollecito to be evil killers (and of course the warped mantra that the SC ruling merely makes things worse by letting them "get away with it" feeds directly into that). I think that there's almost certainly something very deeply wrong in their own lives and/or their own mental constitutions.

Seriously, I think that if people who consider themselves to be rational, intelligent and balanced are reduced to weeping or incapability to "find the words" after a ruling to acquit defendants who were accused of murdering a person whom they never even knew, it's time for them perhaps to step back and think very carefully about their reaction. Apart from everything else, they ought to consider whether it's healthy for them to have reacted in such an emotionally-invested way, and whether perhaps they ought to look for answers in healthier, more constructive places than campaigns to convict and imprison people.

I was wondering what happened to 'thoughtful'. I was hoping to hear her analysis of events. I wonder if she will write another article explaining why the court git it wrong this time?

It's time for her to accept that only Rudy Guede hurt Meredith. Something she seems irrationally loathe to do.

 

[Diocletus]

I think they can weasle their way around attacking Chieffi. He said the DNA test in the knife would be decisive for one thing, so they could rest on that.

But I also agree, there's so much that Chieffi got wrong its hard to see how they don't make some corrections to the logic applied in the case; certainly in regard to importing judicial truths from other cases, and requiring contamination to be proven. And possibly re-evaluating witnesses like Curatolo without actually hearing them. Maybe even access to discovery, and insisting that suspect interviews be performed in accordance with the law.

I agree, should be interesting to see. Glad its done.

I hope they learn from a mistake that Hellman made, and use a maul where they could have used just a hammer.

 

[Numbers]

I thought the statute Numbers showed a few posts upthread, was that the limit for comp was set at about 500,000 euros (and change). So that the most that could be had. I can't imagine Italy will put up much of a fight in comping Amanda and Raf for this.

Is the comp determined by a government office? I would think so, and then defendants can challenge in court if unhappy. Otherwise, no one would ever get paid. (of course they only pay 12 million Euros a year, doesn't sound like a lot given how crazy the court system.

The procedure for compensation is outlined in the CPP. For revision trials, the decision on compensation goes to a Court of Appeal that decides the issue in chambers (not at a trial), CPP Art. 646. I'm not clear how the compensation is decided for an acquittal, CPP Art. 314. It may be the same mechanism, but I haven't found the specific article yet.

 

[anglolawyer]

I totally agree with LJ's assessment of the guilters. They are over-invested, wrong and stupid.

For them, the clinchers in the case are the (supposed) lies, the confessions, odd behaviour, perceived inconsistencies and imagined psychological profiles based on her eyes, his Manga comics and suchlike. Everything else must be arranged around these central beliefs no matter how crazy or incoherent the resulting mélange. Machiavelli at least [note to mods - please stop hiving off innocuous posts about Mach to AAH, they are totally on topic] understands how unsatisfactory this is which is why he tries so hard to crowbar the forensic evidence to show:

• 
  multiple attackers per the autopsy report
  the foot print is Raf's
  the luminol prints prove something or other, I'm not sure what
  the knife print matches the kitchen knife
  evidence based on digestion is unreliable
  Stefanoni is a good scientist (his position here is ad hominem and has nothing to do with the actual science)
  Vechiotti is a bad scientist and a liar and holds a grudge against Stefanoni (more ad hom)

For most of us, I suspect, it's the other way around. The right way round in fact. If Amanda or Raffaele now admitted they were guilty, I would still want proof because the science says otherwise. I am scarcely interested at all (actually, that is an exaggeration) in whether Raf said Filomena's door was shut, ajar or wide open. So what? I can't remember whether my bedroom door is open or closed now and I walked through it a few minutes ago. If the bathmat print could be proved to be Raffaele's, say, then I would perform my own rearrangement of everything else, difficult though that would be given the 'evidence' because that would be a game changer. It would be like Rudy's bloody handprint - no need for anything else.

I suppose they have the lamp as a clincher but fortunately everybody forgot about that

 

[carbonjam72]

Rudy Guede is much more of a "Forrest Gump" than Raf

Presumably the motivations report will have to say that, regarding the previous instructions of the previous Supreme Court ruling, the Nencini trial

Did not (according to PMF translation) sufficiently:
“remedy ..the critical aspects of argumentation, operating a global and unitary examination of evidence..”

Did not: (to paraphrase)
“resolve the overall assessment of each clue and integrate them successfully”

And thus did not
“osmotically demonstrate the presence of the two defendents in the locus delicti commissi”

Or
“delineate the subjective position of the co-conspirators of Guede”

Or successfully outline a series of
“hypothetical situations”

[Such as] “an unwanted sex game..[or] the forcing of an erotic game…which blew out of control.”

Do posters here think that the SC motivations report will leave vague the idea that there were other assailant(s).? Would it be better,(if unlikely) that they agree that it was possible there was only one assailant? If it is true that Guede could then appeal against his conviction and get another trial would this be a good thing?

On the one hand he would have to give evidence to have any credibility and it might be interesting to have him cross examined. On the other hand he could spout off about Amanda and Raffaele (natural justice tells me he should be able to just as Amanda should have been free to say she was slapped) and Amanda and Rafaelle would not have barristers to be able to cross question him and the prosecutors may not be so inclined to look after A and R’s interests? So although Guede would presumably have his sentence reconfirmed there would be a bit more bad PR for A and R as far as the PGP community would have it?

On the other hand if Guede did not apply for retrial and the motivations report just referred to the fact that other assailant(s) were responsible (but not A and R) would this be satisfactory, in terms of how the PGP would spin it?

Lots of good questions. I'm of the opinion (on quite vague foundation) that Guede cannot reopen his case, no matter what the outcome or finding in this case.

Second, Guede couldn't and shouldn't want to. Guede accepted and received a fast track reduction. He got the sweatheart sentence of his dreams, 16 years for a murder where he had no defense.

Guede is now available for day release, he's gotten past this. Whereas if he is re-sentenced without a fast track discount, he could get 30 years again, or even life.

So I don't think Guede is able to challenge his current conviction. Nor do I think he would want to. Rudy Guede is really and truly the only winner in this whole process. Even Mignini will suffer from his actions in this case.

Rudy Guede, 'the dog' and 'the professor' among perhpas dozens of other personnae, somehow bested them all. Rudy Guede is much more of a "Forrest Gump" than Raf.

 

[carbonjam72]

All will be revealed within 90 days.

But so far, ISC (Section 5) seems to have all-but reinstated Hellmann. And Hellmann concluded that it was not up to his court to rule definitively on the issue of multiple attackers, just on whether or not AK and/or RS were part of a multiple attack.
Once AK and RS have been eliminated as, "they did not do the act", or the other acts "did not happen," it's left to some other part of the Italian system to solve the mystery.

The strangest comment that still lingers is this: now that AK and RS have been exonerated, it remains a mystery as to how Meredith died.

Yes, spot on.