Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Antony]

And it does 185!

"... I lost my license and now I don't drive."

 

[acbytesla]

Now that she's off the hook, can she confess to what she did without consequences?

Yeah...she can admit she did it doggy style. What a terrible criminal.

 

[Samson]

I provided a quote from Bongiorno yesterday that made it clear that they were not throwing Amanda under the bus. I think Raffaele's appearances helped, but I think Peter Gill might have helped concentrate some minds.

Raffaele's performance throughout has been incredible, heroic.

 

[Planigale]

Well before I go out shopping. See
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...rican-patrick-lumumba-meredith-kercher-murder
Note that there is a conflict of interest here.
I do understand how for Patrick Lumumba it seems easy to blame Knox for his misfortune. The truth is the police were the professionals responsible for the investigation. If they over reacted to an induced statement because their interview techniques are poor it is their fault not Knox's. Even accepting they needed to act rapidly to detain him as a potential flight risk, his alibi was rapidly confirmed. He should have been promptly released to get on with his life. The prolonged closure of his bar is entirely due to the prosecuting magistrate (Mignini?). I suspect patrick is a pragmatist. Money is better from his current standpoint, he'll get nothing if he blames the police but a whole lot of trouble. At least this way he probably is paid for interviews.

 

[lonepinealex]

Well before I go out shopping. See
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...rican-patrick-lumumba-meredith-kercher-murder
Note that there is a conflict of interest here.
I do understand how for Patrick Lumumba it seems easy to blame Knox for his misfortune. The truth is the police were the professionals responsible for the investigation. If they over reacted to an induced statement because their interview techniques are poor it is their fault not Knox's. Even accepting they needed to act rapidly to detain him as a potential flight risk, his alibi was rapidly confirmed. He should have been promptly released to get on with his life. The prolonged closure of his bar is entirely due to the prosecuting magistrate (Mignini?). I suspect patrick is a pragmatist. Money is better from his current standpoint, he'll get nothing if he blames the police but a whole lot of trouble. At least this way he probably is paid for interviews.

Did he get any compensation for wrongful incarceration?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

What is the lie to which he referred?

Lumumba was quoted: “What Amanda did I don’t know, but I think she knows why Meredith died.” More of the "she knows more than she is telling" nonsense. If I were in a charitable mood, I might conclude that Patrick is one of those people who just does not get false confessions. However he also said, “Amanda lied to me. I am feeling very bad [about the acquittal].” It would be nice to know what he meant by that remark.

 

[Samson]

Well before I go out shopping. See
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...rican-patrick-lumumba-meredith-kercher-murder
Note that there is a conflict of interest here.
I do understand how for Patrick Lumumba it seems easy to blame Knox for his misfortune. The truth is the police were the professionals responsible for the investigation. If they over reacted to an induced statement because their interview techniques are poor it is their fault not Knox's. Even accepting they needed to act rapidly to detain him as a potential flight risk, his alibi was rapidly confirmed. He should have been promptly released to get on with his life. The prolonged closure of his bar is entirely due to the prosecuting magistrate (Mignini?). I suspect patrick is a pragmatist. Money is better from his current standpoint, he'll get nothing if he blames the police but a whole lot of trouble. At least this way he probably is paid for interviews.

Less to parse in the aftermath, but from the article

Speaking outside the courtroom on Friday, the family’s lawyer, Francesco Maresca, said: “The judges said there is a lack of proof and whoever acted with [Rudi] Guede [the only person found guilty of the murder] has not been found.”

So we are looking for just one coperpetrator now?

 

[Numbers]

Is it really possible for Knox and Sollecito to get compensation for wrongful imprisonment? I didn't think that was possible anywhere. People are remanded in custody pending trial and subsequently acquitted all over the world, and I've never heard of anyone being compensated for that, no matter how pathetic the case against them.

They would have to apply for it, but I think that once they do it's more or less automatic. Anyone found not guilty of a crime in Italy is entitled to a certain amount for each year of unjust imprisonment. Page 15 of this document has more info: "Article 314 of the CPP provides for the possibility of compensation for the unjust period spent in pre-trial detention. In essence, a person acquitted by a conclusive decision is entitled to compensation when he/she is found not guilty [of] the offence".

To provide some more detail:

CPP Article 314 Prerequisites for and methods of decisions

1. Whoever is dismissed by a final judgment because the criminal act did not occur, or they did not commit it...is entitled to compensation for the precautionary detention he served, if he did not cause or contributed to cause it intentionally or by gross negligence.
{Paragraphs 2 through 5 of this Article appear similar and generally apply to other grounds on which a case is dropped.}
Note: Constitutional Court judgments No. 310/1996 and 109/1999 have extended the right to fair compensation also to the cases of mistaken enforcement injunction...or temporary detention of a person suspected of a crime, within the same limits set for precautionary detention.

CPP Article 315 Procedure for compensation

1. The application for compensation must be submitted, under penalty of inadmissibility, within two years of the day in which the judgment of dismissal or conviction becomes final....
2. The amount of compensation in no case shall exceed EUR 516,456.90.
3. The rules on compensation for miscarriage of justice shall apply, provided they are compatible.

Since Amanda's conviction for calunnia may need to be reversed by a revision trial, possibly following a judgment by the ECHR, the following may apply:

CPP Article 643 Compensation for miscarriage of justice

1. Whoever is dismissed at a revision trial, without having caused miscarriage of justice by intentional misconduct or gross negligence, is entitled to compensation proportionately to the duration of the sentence or confinement that may have been served and to the personal and family consequences resulting from the conviction.
2.Compensation shall consist in the payment of a sum of money, or, according to the conditions of the person entitled to compensation and the type of damage, in a life annuity....
3. {Not relevant to this case.}

CPP Article 645 Application for compensation

1. The application for compensation shall be submitted, under penalty of inadmissibility, within two years of the judgment of revision becoming final....
2. {Details application procedure if revision is for someone who has died.}

 

[Kauffer]

Lumumba was quoted: “What Amanda did I don’t know, but I think she knows why Meredith died.” More of the "she knows more than she is telling" nonsense. If I were in a charitable mood, I might conclude that Patrick is one of those people who just does not get false confessions. However he also said, “Amanda lied to me. I am feeling very bad [about the acquittal].” It would be nice to know what he meant by that remark.

After Lumumba's treatment by the police you would have thought he could have figured out what happened to Amanda Knox in the questura.

Ed - What was he doing in Rome anyway? What legal interest did he have at the ISC?

 

[Numbers]

Did he get any compensation for wrongful incarceration?

IIRC, Patrick Lumumba turned down an offer of money from Italy for his wrongful arrest and detention.

 

[lonepinealex]

IIRC, Patrick Lumumba turned down an offer of money from Italy for his wrongful arrest and detention.

Why?

 

[acbytesla]

Anyone care to guess what happens next,a)a grovelling apology from the mayor of Perugia to Amanda and Raffaele,b) an apology to Amanda Knox from the Italian government,c)an investigation started into the prosecution.

Actually I do expect them at some time in the future to issue a full apology to Knox. I even expect them to invite Amanda back so they can issue that apology in person. Hey, if you're going to issue a Mea Culpa, do it in a grand magnanimous fashion to show you really mean it. But I don't think this will happen soon. 3 years minimum..but probably more like 10. It would actually be great PR.

 

[Kauffer]

Less to parse in the aftermath, but from the article

Speaking outside the courtroom on Friday, the family’s lawyer, Francesco Maresca, said: “The judges said there is a lack of proof and whoever acted with [Rudi] Guede [the only person found guilty of the murder] has not been found.”

So we are looking for just one coperpetrator now?

So they have confirmed the 'judicial fact' of Guede not acting alone?

So we still have some nonsense in the interpretation it seems.

 

[carbonjam72]

Did he get any compensation for wrongful incarceration?

As Numbers pointed out, and my understanding too, is that PAtrick was awarded $8,000 euros from the police, but declined to accept it, and instead took his case to ECHR thinking he could get more money there.

I think he declined to accept the offer of comp, he said he didn't blame the police.

I'm not sure what angle of comp he preferred to follow.

But I believe he got paid $100,000 euros from a tabloid, IIRC?? Can that possibly be true?

Also, he claimed he was misquoted in the tabloid, and toned done his position when testifying at trial.

Lumumba is a bit of a scuz-bucket, imo. Yes he was harassed by cops, and the loss of his bar and livelihood, is a great reason for 'naming, names'. Doesn't mean its right.

And embracing his better nature at this point, means he has to stop riding the the Amanda Knox gravy train.

Plus he's an artist actually, a musician. So he's half mad out of the gate. He's probably got everything so bolloxed up in his head by now, stewing with jealousy over Knox's "celebrity and wealth" (his words), I doubt he;ll ever be able to disentangle things.

It's too bad. he was probably a gentle man before he got kidnapped by Mignini's henchmen.

 

[Anode]

It's interesting how the tide has changed. The PG lobby: all they ever had really was an appeal to authority. They took all of the prosecutor's assertions, ignored the defense's refutations, and used that information to declare how incredibly guilty the two were.

Now that the authority has switched sides, they're left with nothing but crazy sounding conspiracy theories and lots of hate.

The pro-innocence side had logic, skepticism (of authority) , and science on their (our) side.

It's been a pleasure lurking here folks. Thanks for all of the great work!

 

[carbonjam72]

To provide some more detail:

CPP Article 314 Prerequisites for and methods of decisions

1. Whoever is dismissed by a final judgment because the criminal act did not occur, or they did not commit it...is entitled to compensation for the precautionary detention he served, if he did not cause or contributed to cause it intentionally or by gross negligence.
{Paragraphs 2 through 5 of this Article appear similar and generally apply to other grounds on which a case is dropped.}
Note: Constitutional Court judgments No. 310/1996 and 109/1999 have extended the right to fair compensation also to the cases of mistaken enforcement injunction...or temporary detention of a person suspected of a crime, within the same limits set for precautionary detention.

CPP Article 315 Procedure for compensation

1. The application for compensation must be submitted, under penalty of inadmissibility, within two years of the day in which the judgment of dismissal or conviction becomes final....
2. The amount of compensation in no case shall exceed EUR 516,456.90.
3. The rules on compensation for miscarriage of justice shall apply, provided they are compatible.

Since Amanda's conviction for calunnia may need to be reversed by a revision trial, possibly following a judgment by the ECHR, the following may apply:

CPP Article 643 Compensation for miscarriage of justice

1. Whoever is dismissed at a revision trial, without having caused miscarriage of justice by intentional misconduct or gross negligence, is entitled to compensation proportionately to the duration of the sentence or confinement that may have been served and to the personal and family consequences resulting from the conviction.
2.Compensation shall consist in the payment of a sum of money, or, according to the conditions of the person entitled to compensation and the type of damage, in a life annuity....
3. {Not relevant to this case.}

CPP Article 645 Application for compensation

1. The application for compensation shall be submitted, under penalty of inadmissibility, within two years of the judgment of revision becoming final....
2. {Details application procedure if revision is for someone who has died.}

I'm guessing this is compensation for wrongful conviction.

Italy may try to say that Amanda is responsible for her own arrest, due to the calunnia conviction. However, giving in on that point and agreeing to a maximum payout of 500,000 to both Amanda and Raf, could be a point of concession for a friendly settlement at ECHR, along with expunging the conviction, and a declaration of innocence (if there is such a thing).

I am assuming though, that lawyers fees is a separate matter, and 'uncapped' as a result.

 

[codyjuneau]

I bet my wife I could go a day without posting.....

....... oh crap.

.
Who won her?

Cody
.

 

[carbonjam72]

Actually I do expect them at some time in the future to issue a full apology to Knox. I even expect them to invite Amanda back so they can issue that apology in person. Hey, if you're going to issue a Mea Culpa, do it in a grand magnanimous fashion to show you really mean it. But I don't think this will happen soon. 3 years minimum..but probably more like 10. It would actually be great PR.

Perugia and Seattle are sister cities. I imagine its a great opportunity to put it all behind everyone.

But it may have to wait for Mignini to be prosecuted, convicted and imprisoned in jail in Capanne. Then on her 'apology acceptance tour' to Italy, Amanda can stop by and visit, and tell Mignini in person that she forgives him.

 

[carbonjam72]

So they have confirmed the 'judicial fact' of Guede not acting alone?

So we still have some nonsense in the interpretation it seems.

This was Maresca's interpretation of the ruling, not a statement from cassation, IIUC.

So I'm guessing that this motivation report will clarify the relevance of the Italian 'doctrine of judicial truth', which i expect will pull it in line with what's referred to as Res Judicata, meaning a thing has already been decided. In the US, it only applies against the exact same defendants, in the exact same charges.

Applied to Rudy's case for example, a charge of calunnia for naming Amanda and Raf as the people he saw at the crime scene, would not be inferred from the cassation decision yesterday, but Rudy could be charged with it at a new trial for calunnia.

Concerning discussion that Rudy could have his case reopened, because there is a different pattern of fact that emerged, I guess I would disagree.

Rudy was convicted of murder, on solid evidence. He doesn't say he had others helping him, he disputed his participation in the murder. The judges found only that he participated in the murder. Their finding that he committed the crime along with others has no effect on the evidence relied on to convict Rudy of the crime, however misguided the multi-perp scenario may be.

In some sort of super technical world, where every extremity of language is emphasized into a new trial, I can see that interpretation holding up. In the practical world we all live in, Rudy has been well and justly convicted, and as a practical matter, I can't see that conviction getting re-opened anywhere, ever. All imo of course.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

moving forward on discovery and other issues in DNA forensics

My suggestion is that Italy should adopt rules for DNA evidence similar to those indicated by the American Bar Association. Some very sharp minds worked on them, and adopting them would not embarrass any one person in particular but would potentially prevent convictions on the basis of slipshod DNA profiling. The only idea I have for adding to the ABA standards is to include a line that indicates that such electronic records much be stored for a very long time after a conviction. It is not always true that a high profile case leads to reform. I hope that this one does.