Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[LondonJohn]

Did he get banned or just disappeared after the verdict? I saw one of them ask where he was but no one answered.

"SomeAlibi" has just weighed in with a typically lengthy, pompous screed that's full of passive-aggressive rhetoric and "I was right all along, don't you know" rationalisation. Pathetic. Oh, and you'd think that a lawyer (hehe) would be able to understand that the Supreme Court not only annulled but outright acquitted, under the ruling that "the act did not exist" as it applied to Knox and Sollecito. So he can drone on about legal technicalities all he likes - the truth, "SomeAlibi", whether he likes it or not, is that the Supreme Court found in this ruling that there was absolutely no case to answer for Knox and Sollecito.

SA is going to have to reconcile himself at some point to the fact that he was very badly wrong about pretty much every aspect of this case, and especially (and embarrassingly) in regard to a legal/judicial interpretation of the case. Or he can continue with the self-delusion and keep on striking out in the general direction of the pro-acquittal/pro-innocence commentators. Not very edifying or intellectually-honest though, is it.....?

 

[anglolawyer]

I demand the presence of Charlie Wilkes! Where is he? We need his take on all this.

 

[JREF2010]

Rudy Guede was tried and sentenced to the maximum of 30 years. This was automatically reduced by 1/3 for choosing the Fast Track trial.

The penalty in Amanda and Raffaele's first instance conviction was reduced from 30 years to 25 years. From this, Rudy Guede being a codefendant received an automatic reduction in his sentance from 20 years to 16 years.

The question is: Was that 4 year reduction conditional on Amanda and Raffaele being guilty and now with their exoneration does it go away?

I wonder if they need to re-think this Fast Track bribe option.
Its one thing if the person tells the truth and actually comes clean, I might give a man some points for that....but in this case Rudy refused to talk, which disrespected the victims family etc... and he still got the reduction?

Unless of course you believe in Rudy and that it was all consensual and he blahblahblah...was a victim himself.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

more potpourri

You got a Maserati? I got a bus pass!

And it does 185! BTW LondonJohn got a Yugo with only 80,000 miles on it. More seriously, I think that if anyone in authority in Italy doubts how competent and credible Conti and Vecchiotti's report was, I suggest that they release the EDFs and other forensic records to competent forensic scientists and lawyerswho specialize in forensics outside of Italy who have not previously spoken on this case. I can suggest a few names.

 

[Kaosium]

Did he get banned or just disappeared after the verdict? I saw one of them ask where he was but no one answered.

Hrm. I see 'Henry' has not shown up to face the music at the 2+2 poker forums either...

 

[LondonJohn]

I wonder if they need to re-think this Fast Track bribe option.
Its one thing if the person tells the truth and actually comes clean, I might give a man some points for that....but in this case Rudy refused to talk, which disrespected the victims family etc... and he still got the reduction?

Unless of course you believe in Rudy and that it was all consensual and he blahblahblah...was a victim himself.

Well the critical problem here was that one defendant chose the fast-track option, and then rulings from that trial were (incredibly) used as axiomatic facts in the trial of the other two.

I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with the fast-track option. In other jurisdictions, after all, a pre-trial guilty plea will also result in a lack of trial and an automatic reduction in sentence. But the problems with the Italian method come when there's the sort of separation of strategies that we saw in this case. In a proper system, Guede could have taken the fast-track option, but this would have been done secretly, with full reporting restrictions, and entirely judicially separately from the Knox/Sollecito full trials. The outcome of Guede's fast-track trial would have had no impact whatsoever on the full trials of Knox and Sollecito, and the public would only have learned of Guede's conviction at the end of the trial process for Knox and Sollecito.

 

[LondonJohn]

And it does 185! BTW LondonJohn got a Yugo with only 80,000 miles on it. More seriously, I think that if anyone in authority in Italy doubts how competent and credible Conti and Vecchiotti's report was, I suggest that they release the EDFs and other forensic records to competent forensic scientists and lawyerswho specialize in forensics outside of Italy who have not previously spoken on this case. I can suggest a few names.

Please! It was a Lada, not a Yugo! Don't demean me!

(Though it's true to say it was a second-hand model, and that it took me a good deal of time and effort to get the brown/green stains off the upholstery and carpets )

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the separation strategy was not equivalent to the bus strategy

IMO the separation strategy worked. There were many who believed the separation strategy was the equivalent of throwing Amanda under a bus.

I provided a quote from Bongiorno yesterday that made it clear that they were not throwing Amanda under the bus. I think Raffaele's appearances helped, but I think Peter Gill might have helped concentrate some minds.

 

[Diocletus]

"SomeAlibi" has just weighed in with a typically lengthy, pompous screed that's full of passive-aggressive rhetoric and "I was right all along, don't you know" rationalisation. Pathetic. Oh, and you'd think that a lawyer (hehe) would be able to understand that the Supreme Court not only annulled but outright acquitted, under the ruling that "the act did not exist" as it applied to Knox and Sollecito. So he can drone on about legal technicalities all he likes - the truth, "SomeAlibi", whether he likes it or not, is that the Supreme Court found in this ruling that there was absolutely no case to answer for Knox and Sollecito.

SA is going to have to reconcile himself at some point to the fact that he was very badly wrong about pretty much every aspect of this case, and especially (and embarrassingly) in regard to a legal/judicial interpretation of the case. Or he can continue with the self-delusion and keep on striking out in the general direction of the pro-acquittal/pro-innocence commentators. Not very edifying or intellectually-honest though, is it.....?

This moron never got anything right. Let me know what stocks he recommends so I can go short them.

 

[Dan O.]

One thing I would really like to see is Amanda and/or Raffaele getting a court order somewhere to force the hate guilter forums to be taken down.

I don't suppose anyone can stop them continuing to discuss the case, so long as they stay on the right side of defamation, but the stuff that is already there is horrendously defamatory and damaging and the world would be a better place if the only place you could access it was the Wayback Machine.

Does anyone know if it's legally possible, or does it all come under free speech?

You mean like the way Mignini was able to get a court order to force Google to take down Perugia-Shock?

 

[Kauffer]

Well the critical problem here was that one defendant chose the fast-track option, and then rulings from that trial were (incredibly) used as axiomatic facts in the trial of the other two.

I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with the fast-track option. In other jurisdictions, after all, a pre-trial guilty plea will also result in a lack of trial and an automatic reduction in sentence. But the problems with the Italian method come when there's the sort of separation of strategies that we saw in this case. In a proper system, Guede could have taken the fast-track option, but this would have been done secretly, with full reporting restrictions, and entirely judicially separately from the Knox/Sollecito full trials. The outcome of Guede's fast-track trial would have had no impact whatsoever on the full trials of Knox and Sollecito, and the public would only have learned of Guede's conviction at the end of the trial process for Knox and Sollecito.

What should happen is that the Italian Justice Minister should commission a wholesale review of the application of criminal law possibly in conjunction with the Constitutional court, yet the relationship between these two branches is not conducive to such a thing.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

back to the tasks at hand

Please! It was a Lada, not a Yugo! Don't demean me!

(Though it's true to say it was a second-hand model, and that it took me a good deal of time and effort to get the brown/green stains off the upholstery and carpets )

I drove to work today in a car whose upholstery would look better with stains. Speaking of which...

 

[Samson]

I've just found out there is a poster using the name "Anthony" on PMF.org, just as deluded as the rest of them. I have no wish to be linked with him (or with Casey Anthony, either).

My name and my ISF handle is "Antony" - no "h".

Acknowledged Antony, there is much to be said for copy and pasting usernames. I remember Davefoc saying that when he got a 3 letter name wrong.

 

[carbonjam72]

It surely is. The Law Society got a wide ranging injunction against the web-site Solicitors From Hell a few years ago. It still exists but in watered down form. There are also criminal laws governing online abuse and harassment.

Much of the damage done from these types of intentionally defamatory sites could be ameliorated if the targets of their stalking could have them removed from search engines like google. Without google, the site traffic would almost certainly be reduced to single digits.

 

[Planigale]

I went to visit one of the PMF sites. My impressions are;

1) There are a few die hards who are stupid enough to post defamatory statements and are not being moderated. I suspect the hosts will rapidly take these sites down as a liability unless they are much more careful.
2) I expect Sollecito to put a block on pages via Google Europe.
3) Some people who previously thought the Italian legal system were perfect now think it is dreadful - at last something both pro guilt and pro innocence posters can agree on.
4) A few of the most sensible are recognising that maybe the prosecution case was not as well presented or as solid as it might have been. When I first made any post on this case (not on JREF) I made the point the forensics were poorly done and surely both sides could agree on this as better forensics would favour conviction if they were guilty. How naive I was, prompt banned for not toeing the party line. The prosecution case was beyond criticism. So despite discussions on apple crumble and picking on Platinov I am left here as the last place I have not been banned from (if you exclude world of warcraft).

 

[LondonJohn]

I went to visit one of the PMF sites. My impressions are;

1) There are a few die hards who are stupid enough to post defamatory statements and are not being moderated. I suspect the hosts will rapidly take these sites down as a liability unless they are much more careful.
2) I expect Sollecito to put a block on pages via Google Europe.
3) Some people who previously thought the Italian legal system were perfect now think it is dreadful - at last something both pro guilt and pro innocence posters can agree on.
4) A few of the most sensible are recognising that maybe the prosecution case was not as well presented or as solid as it might have been. When I first made any post on this case (not on JREF) I made the point the forensics were poorly done and surely both sides could agree on this as better forensics would favour conviction if they were guilty. How naive I was, prompt banned for not toeing the party line. The prosecution case was beyond criticism. So despite discussions on apple crumble and picking on Platinov I am left here as the last place I have not been banned from (if you exclude world of warcraft).

Of course I exclude World of Warcraft

And someone's going to be getting very upset that you've misspelled his username!

 

[Dan O.]

You got a Maserati? I got a bus pass!

Look again: It's a 3-day bus pass.

(you lucky bastard)

 

[Samson]

One thing I would really like to see is Amanda and/or Raffaele getting a court order somewhere to force the hate guilter forums to be taken down.

I don't suppose anyone can stop them continuing to discuss the case, so long as they stay on the right side of defamation, but the stuff that is already there is horrendously defamatory and damaging and the world would be a better place if the only place you could access it was the Wayback Machine.

Does anyone know if it's legally possible, or does it all come under free speech?

My concern would be that the material, libellous slanderous and defamatory though it be, is a valuable resource for sociologists, particularly young students. I think it should not be "executed".

 

[acbytesla]

I don't feel all that indulgent towards a bunch of mostly spiteful, dishonest, deranged weirdos who revel in using terms like 'knife boy', set up web-sites to spew their hate, vilify anyone who disagrees with them and close their minds to reasoned discussion. There are several threads here and at IA where these cases have been discussed in a good spirit on both sides without rancour. If you have to seal yourself off from the world to sustain your warped perspective the eventual collision with reality is going to be painful. The ones who are beyond hope will just extend their conspiracy theory further to absorb the latest reverse (as Machiavelli seems to be doing, I regret to see).

While I do agree that many of them have been disgusting, I can't help but imagine how I would feel if the court had upheld the convictions. I can't help but remember my shock when I heard 2 years ago when the ISC threw out Hellman. I know I was in shock then. I don't feel sorry for them in the least bit Anglo. But I do think it is a little unfair and inelegant to be smug over their shock.

But by all means mock them for their crassness and stupidity.

 

[acbytesla]

After wearing out three keyboards on this, I am now stuck for something to post.

Can world peace be far behind?

Who a Nellie