Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[carbonjam72]

I wouldn't be surprised if Guede has very mixed up memories of that night - according to Nina Burleigh, there was some evidence that he was suffering from a dissociative disorder and it might be that he remembers very little detail of the actual violence. It is hard for many people who have committed violent acts, to accept what they have done - and I think a huge part of him is likely to want to buy into the fantasy that others were involved. I think the nearest to truth we'll ever get from him, is that he has no memory of AK/RS being involved in any way - and he'll go back to talking about shadowy figures.

The PMF loons are already offering him sympathy, maybe he'll become their new figurehead - Justice for Guede, or some other such nonsense

I'm wondering what will happen to the Pro-Guilt wiki and websites? Will they be able to remain live, even with all the nonsense and lies?

Maybe 'the dog' or 'the professor' knows more, and could be coaxed to reveal through hypnosis?

Ok, more seriously, didn't Rudy supposedly confess to his cell mates what he did, his knife description, etc? I think Rudy knows what he did, yeah he's messed up, but he knows.

 

[anglolawyer]

Anyone care to guess what happens next,a)a grovelling apology from the mayor of Perugia to Amanda and Raffaele,b) an apology to Amanda Knox from the Italian government,c)an investigation started into the prosecution.


Someone up thread mentioned Italy scapegoating someone for this miscarriage of justice,All of the players in this have known they were persecuting two innocent defendants from very early on.JFK father filed his warehouses with whiskey for the day America went wet when the stock market inevitably collapsed.I bet the police have been collecting the dirt on Mignini and the Stefanoni for the day they might be scapegoated,likewise Mignini on Stefanoni and the police,stefanoni has been preparing for the day she will be assigned all of the blame for Italy's shame,it could get very interesting again.

I am willing to accept any two of the following as scapegoats: Mig, Stef, Nappy or Comfortable. And Massei, Nencini and Matteini should be busted down to private.

 

[Diocletus]

I am willing to accept any two of the following as scapegoats: Mig, Stef, Nappy or Comfortable. And Massei, Nencini and Matteini should be busted down to private.

Don't forget Chieffi. Total idiot.

Eta: I also believe that's it's unavoidable that chiefi gets thrown under the bus when the new motivation comes out.

 

[lonepinealex]

I wouldn't be surprised if Guede has very mixed up memories of that night - according to Nina Burleigh, there was some evidence that he was suffering from a dissociative disorder and it might be that he remembers very little detail of the actual violence. It is hard for many people who have committed violent acts, to accept what they have done - and I think a huge part of him is likely to want to buy into the fantasy that others were involved. I think the nearest to truth we'll ever get from him, is that he has no memory of AK/RS being involved in any way - and he'll go back to talking about shadowy figures.

I agree, I doubt if he has accurate memories of what happened now.

 

[LondonJohn]

I am willing to accept any two of the following as scapegoats: Mig, Stef, Nappy or Comfortable. And Massei, Nencini and Matteini should be busted down to private.

I share others' view that this is less about seeing the biggest culprits (especially Stefanoni, Mignini, most of the Perugia Flying Squad) punished per se. Rather, to me it's about a) seeing those people properly held to account, and b) taking all proper steps to minimise the chances of this sort of thing happening again.

So I think Stefanoni should be subjected to an investigation, and (after due process) removed from the forensic science community. I think Mignini should be investigated by the appropriate body, and (after due process) removed from his position of authority and formally censured over his conduct in this case. I think that most of the Perugia Flying Squad should face disciplinary investigations.

But on top of that, I think that certain structural changes need to happen, to try to minimise the chances of this happening again. Firstly, the police and courts need to get a grip on low-template DNA evidence, and put all the crucial protocols and processes into place. Secondly, the (seemingly ad hoc) practice of sending lab technicians out to process crime scenes should be formally forbidden. Italy must make sure that specialised crime scene investigators are trained and available for this sort of work. Thirdly, I think that the top brass of the Italian judiciary - probably the Constitutional Court - need to sort out the institutionalised problem of the improper relationship between trial judges and prosecutors. They need to ensure that the adversarial system is rigorously enforced, that there is full and open discovery to the defence, that defendants truly ARE treated by the courts as innocent until/unless proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And lastly, I think Italian legislators urgently need to draft new laws concerning police/PM practices during an investigation - something similar to the UK's PACE act.

 

[lonepinealex]

Did Guede explicitly name Amanda and Raff as the co-perpetrators at his trial (or rather, did his lawyer), or did he just say that two other people were there?

 

[LondonJohn]

Is there anything Guede could say that would convince us of his truthfulness? How could we be sure he was not just pushing some angle? I suppose he could lead us to the knife, assuming he recalls roughly where he tossed it and it's still there. If he just parroted the lone wolf theory as hypothesised by most of us why would we be justified in accepting his word?

I agree up to a point. I think that if Guede were suddenly to say that yes, he did do all this on his own, and give a full account of exactly what happened (including when and how he broke in, what happened when Kercher got back, what happened after the murder within the cottage (including Guede's various movements), what happened with the phones and keys, when and how Guede exited the cottage, what route he took home, when, why and how he disposed of the phones), then I think this would be important and worthy of serious scrutiny. After all, what would Guede have to gain by changing his story in this way? Obviously some of the pro-guilt nutters commentators would try to claim that he had been paid off and/or threatened by the Sollecito/Knox families to say such a thing, but obviously that doesn't stand up to much reasonable examination.

But I think it's pretty much impossible to see how and why Guede might ever make such a full and frank confession to being the sole attacker. There's simply nothing in it for him to do so (once one eliminates the ridiculous theory of bribery or threats from the Sollecito/Knox families....). So I think it's automatically a moot point.

On the other hand, I fully agree that if Sollecito were to come out and restate his story that he was a bystander as others committed the murder, or even if he now somewhat admitted to playing an active role in the murder but that there were others involved too (even if he goes so far as to name those others as Knox and Sollecito), then I don't think there's any reason why that could/should be believed by any objective observer. This is, after all, the version that Guede has stuck to throughout, and it's clearly the version that serves him the best.

 

[LondonJohn]

I note the ongoing cognitive dissonance, poor thinking and desperate rationalisation going on within the pro-guilt community. There seems to be a groupthink process of them convincing each other that they were right all along, but that for one reason or another the SC has set "the killers" free - and has of course (in their minds) dishonoured Kercher's sacred memory in the process.

The closest I am seeing to any sort of objective thinking is the suggestion that the SC might have correctly acquitted on the grounds of the case against Knox and Sollecito not crossing the "beyond a reasonable doubt" hurdle. But there are problems with this thinking too. Firstly, right up until several hours ago, those self-same people were very vocally certain that not only were Knox and Sollecito guilty, but there was clearly proof of their guilt way beyond any reasonable doubt. And secondly, the very nature of the SC acquittals makes it absolutely clear that the SC doesn't consider this a borderline case where the prosecution simply failed to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Instead, the outright acquittals ("for not having committed the acts") indicates clearly that the SC considers there to be no case whatsoever against Knox or Sollecito. And the SC is right.

 

[Samson]

Did Guede explicitly name Amanda and Raff as the co-perpetrators at his trial (or rather, did his lawyer), or did he just say that two other people were there?

In this fast moving thread, I sincerely hope you lobby BBC, you are well placed to interview Rudy Guede on release. This is of the utmost importance to the formal exoneration of Knox and Sollecito, and to the revelation of the complete truth to the Kercher family. Over to you, crusader LP.

 

[anglolawyer]

I share others' view that this is less about seeing the biggest culprits (especially Stefanoni, Mignini, most of the Perugia Flying Squad) punished per se. Rather, to me it's about a) seeing those people properly held to account, and b) taking all proper steps to minimise the chances of this sort of thing happening again.

So I think Stefanoni should be subjected to an investigation, and (after due process) removed from the forensic science community. I think Mignini should be investigated by the appropriate body, and (after due process) removed from his position of authority and formally censured over his conduct in this case. I think that most of the Perugia Flying Squad should face disciplinary investigations.

But on top of that, I think that certain structural changes need to happen, to try to minimise the chances of this happening again. Firstly, the police and courts need to get a grip on low-template DNA evidence, and put all the crucial protocols and processes into place. Secondly, the (seemingly ad hoc) practice of sending lab technicians out to process crime scenes should be formally forbidden. Italy must make sure that specialised crime scene investigators are trained and available for this sort of work. Thirdly, I think that the top brass of the Italian judiciary - probably the Constitutional Court - need to sort out the institutionalised problem of the improper relationship between trial judges and prosecutors. They need to ensure that the adversarial system is rigorously enforced, that there is full and open discovery to the defence, that defendants truly ARE treated by the courts as innocent until/unless proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And lastly, I think Italian legislators urgently need to draft new laws concerning police/PM practices during an investigation - something similar to the UK's PACE act.

Crumbs, if we are talking serious reform then all of the above. I would seriously fancy the chances of nailing Stefanoni for perjury and perverting the course of justice. There was nothing on the knife or the clasp (how could there have been) and she knew what she was doing burying EDFs, concealing inconvenient test results and destroying evidence. She cannot possibly have acted alone.

 

[Kauffer]

My money says Maresca is looking into a civil suit now. Last guilter breath.....Rita on the other hand is probably getting on a plane with Steph and the secret files.

I wonder if there really would be an appetite for a civil suit - it's expensive to do, the defence would be highly motivated, sympathy for the Kerchers could reverse etc etc. Think they'll reject that idea.

The whole Kercher fundraising effort I found somewhat grubby - Italy was prosecuting the case not them. What they were collecting money for was to support their own financial interest in the outcome of the criminal trial - not the "discovery of the truth".

 

[Kauffer]

Crumbs, if we are talking serious reform then all of the above. I would seriously fancy the chances of nailing Stefanoni for perjury and perverting the course of justice. There was nothing on the knife or the clasp (how could there have been) and she knew what she was doing burying EDFs, concealing inconvenient test results and destroying evidence. She cannot possibly have acted alone.

What is the statute of limitations on any possible charges that Stefanoni, theoretically might face?

 

[Antony]

Clearly the aggravated element of the calunnia conviction against Knox falls, the whole thing looks a bit shaky as she is innocent. The ECHR will not prioritise things now, it will grind its way through. As I understand it Italy has no simple way to reverse the established conviction. Knox will want things done with. I suspect over the next year some deal will be done the details will be confidential.

That will be a travesty, unless the deal includes the detail, in public, of cancelling the callunia conviction. The message needs to be out, that statements made in the circumstances we know about, cannot be pinned on the victim of an abuse interrogation.

 

[Antony]

My guess it will now be Raffaele's family that files some lawsuits. Italy will probably throw somebody under the bus over this. Maybe Steffi or even Miggi. It will be interesting to see.

This needs to happen. Out-of-control police and judges are part of the problem, not the solution.

 

[lonepinealex]

In this fast moving thread, I sincerely hope you lobby BBC, you are well placed to interview Rudy Guede on release. This is of the utmost importance to the formal exoneration of Knox and Sollecito, and to the revelation of the complete truth to the Kercher family. Over to you, crusader LP.

Ha, well it's a nice thought but a) I don't work in news and b) the Brits aren't all that interested in the case, despite the tabloid headlines.

The ISC decision is playing second fiddle to the germanwings crash on Radio 4 news this morning, and I suspect that after today there will be almost no further coverage of the case in the UK press. It already feels a bit like people are thinking, "was that case still going on??"

 

[Antony]

You probably know as much about the plight of Sabrina and Cossima Misseri, RoseMontague. I suppose this is far more intractable than this case, since it is a village and pitchforks scene. Yet I have the utmost admiration for the analysis you, Kaosium, Teddy and so on have conducted. Anthony seems keen, I hope others here will take an interest.

I've just found out there is a poster using the name "Anthony" on PMF.org, just as deluded as the rest of them. I have no wish to be linked with him (or with Casey Anthony, either).

My name and my ISF handle is "Antony" - no "h".

 

[Kauffer]

I note the ongoing cognitive dissonance, poor thinking and desperate rationalisation going on within the pro-guilt community. There seems to be a groupthink process of them convincing each other that they were right all along, but that for one reason or another the SC has set "the killers" free - and has of course (in their minds) dishonoured Kercher's sacred memory in the process.

The closest I am seeing to any sort of objective thinking is the suggestion that the SC might have correctly acquitted on the grounds of the case against Knox and Sollecito not crossing the "beyond a reasonable doubt" hurdle. But there are problems with this thinking too. Firstly, right up until several hours ago, those self-same people were very vocally certain that not only were Knox and Sollecito guilty, but there was clearly proof of their guilt way beyond any reasonable doubt. And secondly, the very nature of the SC acquittals makes it absolutely clear that the SC doesn't consider this a borderline case where the prosecution simply failed to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Instead, the outright acquittals ("for not having committed the acts") indicates clearly that the SC considers there to be no case whatsoever against Knox or Sollecito. And the SC is right.

I'm waiting for them to turn on each other. A lot of the nuts there were making definitive promises about outcomes. Additionally, there were multiple erroneous interpretations of law and science. When things don't work out, there is a natural inclination to look for someone to blame. Right now it's the ISC. My guess is it will soon be each other. The likes of Yummi, Popper, McCall and Rag have said much to be held accountable for by anyone with an emotional investment in guilt and punishment.

I still think one or two will come 180 degrees and issue mea culpas and apologies.

 

[JREF2010]

Is there anything Guede could say that would convince us of his truthfulness? How could we be sure he was not just pushing some angle? I suppose he could lead us to the knife, assuming he recalls roughly where he tossed it and it's still there. If he just parroted the lone wolf theory as hypothesised by most of us why would we be justified in accepting his word?

Yes, I think the truth has an amazing way of fitting the puzzle together. Rudy was there, he saw it, he could probably recite it in great detail if he had the motive.

Could we be sure? the Half Truths of Rudy has always been an issue from both sides. ... interesting question....
I think people collectively can see through the lies fairly quickly.
Like everyone saw through lies in the trials and media. But it takes more than one perspective doesnt it? One person might be fooled, but probably not 100 people.

RUDY GUEDE...
The guilters think hes in with the defense (paid to be quiet), the defense assumes he made a deal behind closed doors(reduced time and favors if he included Amanda and Raffaele to support their winning of the case).

Rudy is in a dangerous situation if he was making "deals", obviously.
Rudy could come clean, about making deals with people, which makes him a unpleasant reality, if there was skulduggery going on.

....or maybe hes just a loser, a liar scum trying to blame his crime on someone else and imaginary ghosts or blaming others to get his sentence reduced. Maybe no conspiracy.....maybe Toto died of natural causes all of a sudden in Police custody in Perugia too.

 

[Antony]

I am willing to accept any two of the following as scapegoats: Mig, Stef, Nappy or Comfortable. And Massei, Nencini and Matteini should be busted down to private.

What about the March 2013 ISC judges who committed the single biggest scandal of the whole travesty? Others have cited his name: Chieffi was it - or does that just mean "chief"?

ETA - should have read the very next post as the same point is made.

 

[Bill Williams]

I know De Felice would never read hear, but just in case:

I would just like to say
"At last, the justice system finally crumbled and told us what we knew to be true".

Someone should at least ask De Felice if he wants fries with those words.