Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Chris_Halkides]

no announcement AFAIK

This confuses me. Are you arguing because other cases with similar reasoning has led to a favorable decision for the applicant that this demands that Knox would receive similar treatment? Or has the ECHO said that they would review her case?

I don't believe that they have said anything yet, but I have not followed it that closely, either.

 

[Kauffer]

This confuses me. Are you arguing because other cases with similar reasoning has led to a favorable decision for the applicant that this demands that Knox would receive similar treatment? Or has the ECHO said that they would review her case?

The former (sort of). The case law supports the finding of rights violations, including Article 6 - the right to a fair trial, but court has said nothing so far about the case.

 

[acbytesla]

The former (sort of). The case law supports the finding of rights violations, including Article 6 - the right to a fair trial, but court has said nothing so far about the case.

Thank you. Perhaps it is my own negativity and cynicism that makes me fear that regardless that Amanda has what we believe to be a good case that it may never be reviewed by the ECHR. I imagine that like most courts that they have a large backlog.

 

[Kauffer]

Thank you. Perhaps it is my own negativity and cynicism that makes me fear that regardless that Amanda has what we believe to be a good case that it may never be reviewed by the ECHR. I imagine that like most courts that they have a large backlog.

Well yes they do have a huge backlog - particularly Italian cases, but if a case is admissible, it must be considered. Within 36 months is a working guide. It's been 16 months so far.

If the murder convictions are confirmed next week, there will undoubtedly be new applications - due within about 9 months after the decision, but certainly not before the court's report. The ECHR timescales then might be very different, because Mr Sollecito might be imprisoned and Ms Knox potentially subject to extradition proceedings (though I think this unlikely). The court may well be minded to deal with the matter more expeditiously.

 

[NancyS]

It was evidence that Amanda herself gave. Amanda was trying to help the police in thinking of guys (primarily) who might have had contact with Meredith or the cottage. And this was probably as a result of Sophie Purton's statement about strange fellows.

I don't think this was an example of slut-shaming. How do you see it as that?

Why were you bringing this up at all? I can't see what relevance it has to the murder of Meredith Kercher? As far as I can see, the only reason that the various male acquaintances of Amanda Knox are continually discussed, is to slut shame

 

[Numbers]

I have been out of the loop for a while. Do we even know if they are reviewing this case? While it does seem that Knox has a case, I haven't read of any real developments by the ECHR.

I believe that Amanda's application is likely stuck in queue to be examined by the ECHR, among all the other cases that have been lodged against Italy. The good news is that the number of cases pending against Italy but not yet heard has fallen to 9950, 14.6% of all such pending cases against all 47 Council of Europe States. Italy has actually fallen to 3rd place, behind Ukraine (13650 cases pending, 20.1%) and Russia (10000, 14.7%) as of 28 Feb 2015.

I hope her case will come up for communication to Italy (the start of the judgment process) soon, but there is no way I know of to determine the place in the queue of any application. The ECHR Registry has stated the goal is to decide admissibility generally within one year, but I believe that ECHR is behind on this goal.

Source: http://www.echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=reports&c=
(statistics)

ETA: If one looks at Italy's position in terms of number of pending cases, it is clear that it is near the top (in a negative sense) with the former Communist bloc countries and Turkey (which has had many HR issues, including how to deal with political dissidents, rebellious and/or oppressed minorities, and authoritarian tendencies within its developing democracy).

 

[acbytesla]

I believe that Amanda's application is likely stuck in queue to be examined by the ECHR, among all the other cases that have been lodged against Italy. The good news is that the number of cases pending against Italy but not yet heard has fallen to 9950, 14.6% of all such pending cases against all 47 Council of Europe States. Italy has actually fallen to 3rd place, behind Ukraine (13650 cases pending, 20.1%) and Russia (10000, 14.7%) as of 28 Feb 2015.

I hope her case will come up for communication to Italy (the start of the judgment process) soon, but there is no way I know of to determine the place in the queue of any application. The ECHR Registry has stated the goal is to decide admissibility generally within one year, but I believe that ECHR is behind on this goal.

Source: http://www.echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=reports&c=
(statistics)

ETA: If one looks at Italy's position in terms of number of pending cases, it is clear that it is near the top (in a negative sense) with the former Communist bloc countries and Turkey (which has had many HR issues, including how to deal with political dissidents, rebellious and/or oppressed minorities, and authoritarian tendencies within its developing democracy).

And how long has it been since Knox applied?..never mind, Kauffer answered already .

 

[Numbers]

This confuses me. Are you arguing because other cases with similar reasoning has led to a favorable decision for the applicant that this demands that Knox would receive similar treatment? Or has the ECHO said that they would review her case?

The ECHR gets so many cases, especially from the States I mentioned in my previous post, that they try to throw out as "inadmissible" as many as possible as early as possible. They apparently do quick scans of the submissions for those which obviously would not qualify for judgment. The fact that Amanda Knox's application has not been "decided" as inadmissible to date is a positive sign that it will eventually be accepted for judgment.

The other point in favor of her application being accepted for judgment and for Italy to be found in violation is that there is a large body of ECHR case-law in cases with similar facts that were declared to be violations by the respondent State. I and others here (especially Diocletus and Kauffer) have posted on this here, and I have posted on it at IIP. There is also some information on this on www.amandaknoxcase.com. In summary, the case-law, which includeds Salduz v Turkey[GC] 36391/02, Dayanan v Turkey 7377/03, Brusco v France 1466/07, and Ibrahim et al. v the United Kingdom 50541/08 (and citations within Ibrahim), states: statements obtained during interrogation where there is no counsel for the person being interrogated may not be used for conviction; a person taken into police custody must be provided with counsel immediately, so by logical extension, statements from a person in custody without counsel could not be used for conviction; a person cannot be convicted based on statements made when he is being questioned under the pretext that he is a witness, as a way to avoid giving that person counsel; and lastly, there is an outline of 5 points that ECHR considers the rare cases when statements made during interrogation without counsel may be used for conviction, and my analysis (and I think of others) suggests Amanda's statements do not fall into the category of being usable for conviction.

 

[Desert Fox]

Why were you bringing this up at all? I can't see what relevance it has to the murder of Meredith Kercher? As far as I can see, the only reason that the various male acquaintances of Amanda Knox are continually discussed, is to slut shame

It is many pages threads back when a feminist blogger argued against Amanda (based on as usual no evidence) and another posted against her.

The trouble is that the first blogger seems to just breeze over all the slut shaming. It actually would be nice if we could get Ms Watson on our side in this case. Tried to get the people on Ask an Atheist on our side (they are in Seattle after all) but never responded back to me.

 

[christianahannah]

Why were you bringing this up at all? I can't see what relevance it has to the murder of Meredith Kercher? As far as I can see, the only reason that the various male acquaintances of Amanda Knox are continually discussed, is to slut shame

It was in relation to a comment (maybe by you but I am not sure) many posts ago that Meredith disapproved of Amanda's sex life. I followed with I don't think Meredith thought that way (maybe there is testimony from others to that but I am not aware of any) just that she was uncomfortable with who Amanda had brought home. As far as I know there was no sexual activity to these visits.

Amanda was giving the names in response to police questions and they were probably questioning her because of Sophie Purton's statement (which as far as I know included no sexual connotation towards Amanda).

I fail to see how the police following up on statements from others is slut shaming.

 

[christianahannah]

It is many pages threads back when a feminist blogger argued against Amanda (based on as usual no evidence) and another posted against her.

The trouble is that the first blogger seems to just breeze over all the slut shaming. It actually would be nice if we could get Ms Watson on our side in this case. Tried to get the people on Ask an Atheist on our side (they are in Seattle after all) but never responded back to me.

I don't think I was a part of that conversation was I? Who was the feminist blogger? And who was the first blogger?

 

[acbytesla]

It was in relation to a comment (maybe by you but I am not sure) many posts ago that Meredith disapproved of Amanda's sex life. I followed with I don't think Meredith thought that way (maybe there is testimony from others to that but I am not aware of any) just that she was uncomfortable with who Amanda had brought home. As far as I know there was no sexual activity to these visits.

Amanda was giving the names in response to police questions and they were probably questioning her because of Sophie Purton's statement (which as far as I know included no sexual connotation towards Amanda).

I fail to see how the police following up on statements from others is slut shaming.

While I agree with you that the mere followup on those names is not slut shaming, it's clear that this practice has been mounted against Knox.

 

[Desert Fox]

I don't think I was a part of that conversation was I? Who was the feminist blogger? And who was the first blogger?

This is one
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-marie-basile/where-are-all-the-feminists_b_5386971.html

And this may be the other
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index...ing_to_lisa_marie_basile_why_smart_feminists/

 

[NancyS]

It was in relation to a comment (maybe by you but I am not sure) many posts ago that Meredith disapproved of Amanda's sex life. I followed with I don't think Meredith thought that way (maybe there is testimony from others to that but I am not aware of any) just that she was uncomfortable with who Amanda had brought home. As far as I know there was no sexual activity to these visits.

Amanda was giving the names in response to police questions and they were probably questioning her because of Sophie Purton's statement (which as far as I know included no sexual connotation towards Amanda).

I fail to see how the police following up on statements from others is slut shaming.

It was Mignini that made the claim that Meredith disapproved of Amanda's sex life. I think you previously suggested that the multiple men Amanda brought home, made Meredith feel uncomfortable and made her worry about her safety. I thought that this didn't make sense as Meredith seemed happy enough with the open-door policy of the boys downstairs and was even having some sort of relationship with one of the boys downstairs.

I find it odd that Meredith possibly made a comment that she thought an acquaintance of Amanda's was a bit weird - and this is extrapolated to Amanda bringing home multiple men, possibly for sex, and that this made Meredith feel uncomfortable and unsafe?

 

[NancyS]

This is one
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-marie-basile/where-are-all-the-feminists_b_5386971.html

And this may be the other
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index...ing_to_lisa_marie_basile_why_smart_feminists/

That article at truejustice is the most badly written nonsense I've ever read - what an absolute loon! The quote "nobody turned her into a filthy, sex obsessed slut, but herself" - do people really believe this mysoginist nonsense?

 

[Machiavelli]

Except if you read Machiavelli's post again, this is exactly what he was saying.

I agree quite with cristianahannah, and definitely disagree with NancyS' rhetoric, but while I agree with cristianahannah I, also go beyond. My personal belief (and by my understanding, that of Mignini too) is not just that Meredith felt unconfortable about specific behaviours of Amanda Knox, but that she rather disliked or disregarded her as a person, she didn't wish to spend much time in her company, and Amanda Knox felt utterly hurt by Meredith and her British friends cutting her off their circle.
In return to this, or together with this, Amanda also had feelings of sexual jealousy about Meredith and negative feelings against her.

It's obvious that this scenario stems from also an overall consideration of Knox's personality, and the observation that she was not exactly a "normal" girl; I think there are indipendent indicators that she had some psychological issues and a problematic self. The point is not about her sexual habits or personal morals, which have no interest, the problematic element is her psychology. Neither me, nor Mignini or the judge or Meredith had a problem with her sexual or sentimental life, it was Amanda who had a problem with her sexual life and habits. This was a main causal element of the crime, in my opinion (and by my understanding, in Mignini's).

 

[toto]

I agree quite with cristianahannah, and definitely disagree with NancyS' rhetoric, but while I agree with cristianahannah I, also go beyond. My personal belief (and by my understanding, that of Mignini too) is not just that Meredith felt unconfortable about specific behaviours of Amanda Knox, but that she rather disliked or disregarded her as a person, she didn't wish to spend much time in her company, and Amanda Knox felt utterly hurt by Meredith and her British friends cutting her off their circle.
In return to this, or together with this, Amanda also had feelings of sexual jealousy about Meredith and negative feelings against her.

It's obvious that this scenario stems from also an overal consideration of Knox's personality, and the observation that she was not exactly a "normal" girl, with indipendent indicators that she had some psychological issues and a problematic self. The point is not about her sexual habits or personal morals, which have no interest, the problematic element is her psychology. Neither me, nor Mignini or the judge or Meredith had a problem with her sexual or sentimental life, it was Amanda who had a problem with her sexual life and habits. This was a main causal element of the crime, in my opinion (and by my understanding, in Mignini's).

Your personal belief does not ring at all true to me.

 

[js202]

I agree quite with cristianahannah, and definitely disagree with NancyS' rhetoric, but while I agree with cristianahannah I, also go beyond. My personal belief (and by my understanding, that of Mignini too) is not just that Meredith felt unconfortable about specific behaviours of Amanda Knox, but that she rather disliked or disregarded her as a person, she didn't wish to spend much time in her company, and Amanda Knox felt utterly hurt by Meredith and her British friends cutting her off their circle.
In return to this, or together with this, Amanda also had feelings of sexual jealousy about Meredith and negative feelings against her.

It's obvious that this scenario stems from also an overal consideration of Knox's personality, and the observation that she was not exactly a "normal" girl, with indipendent indicators that she had some psychological issues and a problematic self.

I see. So then, like Mignini, you fancy yourself an amateur psychologist.

I'll say this: in my view, Mignini's lunacy is exceeded only by your self-proclaimed abilities to assess psychic instability on the basis of a woman's body odor. The fact that you have made no such claims with regard to Ms. Knox should end all debate as to whether you have a genuinely intimate connection to the prosecution in this case. I mean, if you were ever at the prosecutor's table, at some point surely you would have gotten close enough to smell her. And then all bets would be off, agreed?

 

[NancyS]

I agree quite with cristianahannah, and definitely disagree with NancyS' rhetoric, but while I agree with cristianahannah I, also go beyond. My personal belief (and by my understanding, that of Mignini too) is not just that Meredith felt unconfortable about specific behaviours of Amanda Knox, but that she rather disliked or disregarded her as a person, she didn't wish to spend much time in her company, and Amanda Knox felt utterly hurt by Meredith and her British friends cutting her off their circle.
In return to this, or together with this, Amanda also had feelings of sexual jealousy about Meredith and negative feelings against her.

It's obvious that this scenario stems from also an overal consideration of Knox's personality, and the observation that she was not exactly a "normal" girl, with indipendent indicators that she had some psychological issues and a problematic self. The point is not about her sexual habits or personal morals, which have no interest, the problematic element is her psychology. Neither me, nor Mignini or the judge or Meredith had a problem with her sexual or sentimental life, it was Amanda who had a problem with her sexual life and habits. This was a main causal element of the crime, in my opinion (and by my understanding, in Mignini's).

This is an extremely odd view to have about women? Is sexual jealousy something that you have invented

And the rest of this is just pure fantasy - but who cares right, just add in a naked helicopter ride and you can make millions out of these dirty old man fantasies. It really does say far more about what is going on in the mind of Mignini, than it actually does about AK

 

[Kauffer]

I agree quite with cristianahannah, and definitely disagree with NancyS' rhetoric, but while I agree with cristianahannah I, also go beyond. My personal belief (and by my understanding, that of Mignini too) is not just that Meredith felt unconfortable about specific behaviours of Amanda Knox, but that she rather disliked or disregarded her as a person, she didn't wish to spend much time in her company, and Amanda Knox felt utterly hurt by Meredith and her British friends cutting her off their circle In return to this, or together with this, Amanda also had feelings of sexual jealousy about Meredith and negative feelings against her.
It's obvious that this scenario stems from also an overal consideration of Knox's personality, and the observation that she was not exactly a "normal" girl, with indipendent indicators that she had some psychological issues and a problematic self. The point is not about her sexual habits or personal morals, which have no interest, the problematic element is her psychology. Neither me, nor Mignini or the judge or Meredith had a problem with her sexual or sentimental life, it was Amanda who had a problem with her sexual life and habits. This was a main causal element of the crime, in my opinion (and by my understanding, in Mignini's).

Did you get this nonsense from john Kercher via Maresca? Sexual jealousy? Really? Negative feelings? Where's the evidence?

How do you explain the shopping trips together, the chocolate festival, the music concert, the borrowing of condoms, the text messages signed off with kisses, the content of which supports a view of care and concern for each other's welfare etc etc?

Where is the evidence Ms Knox was 'cut off' by Ms Kercher?