• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

Status
Not open for further replies.
If Mignini said in court or elsewhere that Amanda was morally deficient due to her (normal) sex life that would not be ethical in my opinion.

Do you dispute that Amanda and Raf were and are just two normal people?

It seems like, and I may be mistaken in reading you here, but it seems like you wish to preserve the option of believing that Amanda (possibly Raf), were in some way abnormal.

And moreover, that they are in essence, no different from Rudy Guede in the character, histories, and behaviors.

Is this one of those subjects areas where you are still making up your mind, and need to read more? I'm just asking, but I suspect this may be the root of our disagreement here.
 
In other words he 'sexed-up', the very normal student behaviour - behaviour, which was no different from Meredith Kercher's. It makes me sad that this is continually done to young women - and it is the same attitude that sees many rape victims blamed for what they wore, or because they had drunk alcohol or because they had previously had sex. Most young students could have had their lives sensationalised and vilified in the same way.

Do you think it is in anyway believable that a young woman, with no history of violence, would persuade her boyfriend and some random they had just met, to sexually assault another young woman because she was too 'prissy' - and both men go along with this as they were just too sexually attracted to AK to say no? This is what Mignini suggests - and to me this has no basis in reality and appears to be the sort of plot you would see in fairly unpleasant pornography

I don't think he sexed up Amanda's behavior or used it against her to show her morally depraved.

Take Amanda out of this and speaking in general murder is not always done by those with an awful history. Drugs, jealousy, hate, passion in the moment can have a seemingly normal person do things you'd never think they were capable of.
 
I would expect there is a bit of a Madonna-Whore complex going on

Similar views actually, expressed by a jailed Indian rapist from a group of rapists in a recent documentary, suggesting "20% of girls are decent", and the rest deserve what they get for being... what, outside?
 
I don't think he sexed up Amanda's behavior or used it against her to show her morally depraved.

Take Amanda out of this and speaking in general murder is not always done by those with an awful history. Drugs, jealousy, hate, passion in the moment can have a seemingly normal person do things you'd never think they were capable of.

But before you accuse someone of committing that act, it would at least help if you could prove they were there at the scene AND time of the crime.

Is there any evidence you are aware of to support the belief that Amanda, Raf or anyone but Rudy, was there when the crime occurred?

One set of footprints in wet blood, right? Rudy admits are his. How does one set of footprints, become three people?
 
Do you dispute that Amanda and Raf were and are just two normal people?

It seems like, and I may be mistaken in reading you here, but it seems like you wish to preserve the option of believing that Amanda (possibly Raf), were in some way abnormal.

And moreover, that they are in essence, no different from Rudy Guede in the character, histories, and behaviors.

Is this one of those subjects areas where you are still making up your mind, and need to read more? I'm just asking, but I suspect this may be the root of our disagreement here.

I do not think Amanda and Raffaele were abnormal. I do not think Rudy was abnormal. Their character, histories and behaviors are not the same but I would not have have pointed at any of them beforehand and said they will murder in the future.

I think murder is an abnormal act (among other things).
 
I do not think Amanda and Raffaele were abnormal. I do not think Rudy was abnormal. Their character, histories and behaviors are not the same but I would not have have pointed at any of them beforehand and said they will murder in the future.

I think murder is an abnormal act (among other things).

Are you saying that you think Rudy's burglary history is normal?
 
I don't think he sexed up Amanda's behavior or used it against her to show her morally depraved.

Take Amanda out of this and speaking in general murder is not always done by those with an awful history. Drugs, jealousy, hate, passion in the moment can have a seemingly normal person do things you'd never think they were capable of.

This is actually not correct, most murders are fairly predictable. It is incredibly rare for someone with no history of violence, to suddenly kill someone for no reason. In the majority of cases there is something in the history and a propensity to violence - and it is even more rare for a woman to be involved.

I think it is morally repugnant for Mignini to have used her sex-life, to invent a bizarre motive.
 
There's absolutely a Madonna / Whore thing going on, which is a prevalent misogynist dichotomy in Catholic and conservative cultures.

What's especially ridiculous about Mignini's theory is that it relies on a mischaracterisation of both Amanda and Meredith. Meredith didn't seem "prissy" to me - she liked sex, drugs and probably rock and roll as well, like 90% of women her age. So did Amanda. They were very similar people, but in Mignini's world one must be an angel and one must be a devil. There is no subtlety.
 
Sometimes I wonder if it is not the depraved fantasies of those who write about him being projected on to what he actually says.

He didn't and hasn't take pleasure in any of the convictions if one reads and listens to what he says.

Lol. What good is what he says?
 
Sometimes I wonder if it is not the depraved fantasies of those who write about him being projected on to what he actually says.

There is so many falsehoods to pick through on these threads ...who has the time?

No Mignini did not call Knox a “Luciferina” as claimed by the chronically misinformed "acbytesla".

And I love his tirade about Comic Sans:

Personally, I convinced that this document was and is a total forgery. I'VA NEVER SEEN AN OFFICIAL DOCUMENT in the Comic San font. That this was just another example of sleazy tactics of those trying to smear Knox.

(In all caps no less.)

Meanwhile back in the real world:


http://i.imgur.com/ecqc0gr.jpg

http://www.forgetthebox.net/wp-cont...vm-comic-sans.jpg.pagespeed.ic.6ASEhDz0nk.jpg

http://www.forgetthebox.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/police-ticket-montreal-comic-sans-ms.jpg
 
There is so many falsehoods to pick through on these threads ...who has the time?

No Mignini did not call Knox a “Luciferina” as claimed by the chronically misinformed "acbytesla".

And do you think it was appropriate for Knox to have been called a 'Luciferina' in court, regardless of which lawyer said it?

And do you think it was appropriate that Amanda's sex-life was brought into court? And if you believe it was appropriate, do you also think more should have been made of Meredith's very similar sex-life?
 
There is so many falsehoods to pick through on these threads ...who has the time?

No Mignini did not call Knox a “Luciferina” as claimed by the chronically misinformed "acbytesla".

And I love his tirade about Comic Sans:



(In all caps no less.)

Meanwhile back in the real world:


http://i.imgur.com/ecqc0gr.jpg

http://www.forgetthebox.net/wp-cont...vm-comic-sans.jpg.pagespeed.ic.6ASEhDz0nk.jpg

http://www.forgetthebox.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/police-ticket-montreal-comic-sans-ms.jpg

Do you believe Machiavelli gave a fair summary of Mignini's statements at trial about Amanda Knox's psychosexual makeup?

Can you point to any court document or evidence which supports the assertion that this was, in part, a revenge sex killing?
 
Last edited:
more Machiavellian misdirection

Good example. Think about the fact that such photo was sold by barcroft media and published by a British tabloid, while it was not published by any Italian press source.

You could not find this picture in the Italian press.
Think about it.
This statement is the moral equivalent of a lie. The photo also appeared at Frank Sfarzo's blog Perugia Shock.
 
An amateur blog. Written in English. Is the equivalent of the "Italian Press"?

Please name any Italian newspaper or magazine that published that photo before or during the trail.
 
Last edited:
And do you think it was appropriate for Knox to have been called a 'Luciferina' in court, regardless of which lawyer said it?

And do you think it was appropriate that Amanda's sex-life was brought into court? And if you believe it was appropriate, do you also think more should have been made of Meredith's very similar sex-life?

In a crime like this, one's sex life will be brought up... whether it's Jodi Arias, Casey Anthony, or Amanda Marie Knox.

Re: Pacelli: nothing odd there either.

He posed the "Luciferina" description to the court as a question.

"Luciferina" or "the girl-next-door". And prefaced his opinion with "In my judgement".

Nothing odd about that and nothing that you won't find in a court anywhere else.

"Dunque chi è Amanda Knox? È quella mite, dolce, dal volto acqua e sapone che vedete qui oggi, dinanzi a voi? Oppure è quella che vi ho descritto in base al ritratto testimoniale fatto testé? Amanda è l'una e l'altra, in lei convive a mio giudizio una doppia anima, quella angelica, compassionevole, da Santa Maria Goretti, tenera e ingenua e quella luciferina, satanica, diabolica che la porta a vivere condotte di tipo borderline, estreme e ad adottare comportamenti dissoluti ed era quest'ultima l'Amanda del primo novembre 2007."
 
Last edited:
An amateur blog. Written in English. Is the equivalent of the "Italian Press"?

Please name any Italian newspaper or magazine that published that photo before or during the trail.

Why not ask Machiavelli, as he was claiming that Perugian papers were rife with stories of AK being involved in various sex and drugs scandals :))
 
Contamination at low DNA levels; Novelli's YSTR table

In a 2010 review article RH van Oorschot and coauthors wrote, "However, it [the existence of profiling kits with increased PCR cycle number] also brings with it a need to increase the stringency of contamination prevention, as it is likely that more sporadic contamination will be detected due to the increased sensitivity...Concomitant with the ability to amplify minute quantities of material is the increased likelihood of contamination being detected and of artifacts of the amplification process being increased due to stochastic effects." What the forensic police did in this case was not best practice under ordinary profiling conditions, let alone under low template conditions. Many commenters on this case fail to address that contamination is a more serious concern in the low-template region.

These authors also wrote, "From a theoretical perspective, any DNA deposit that is not immediately relevant to the crime being investigated can be viewed as contamination. In this light, gross or sporadic contamination may appear at any point: (1) before the crime has been committed; (2) in the interval between the crime and securing the crime scene; (3) during the investigation of the scene; and/or (4) within the laboratory." Now let us consider prosecution witness Dr. Novelli's YSTR table for the bra clasp. In ten of fourteen loci, there are at least two alleles (indicating that a near complete profile of a second contributor could be inferred). In four loci there are three alleles. Moreover, if we include peaks that are less than 50 RFU but clearly above noise, then even more contributors would be indicated. Given that most of the knife profile is below 50 RFU, the grounds for making 50 a cutoff are open to question. As we have discussed previously, not all of these peaks could arise from Meredith's attackers. Therefore, even Dr. Novelli's table indicates that the clasp is contaminated by this definition.
 
Last edited:
In a crime like this, one's sex life will be brought up... whether it's Jodi Arias, Casey Anthony, or Amanda Marie Knox.

."

That says it all really - and the logical conclusion from this, is that the defence should have countered with some of the rather indelicate claims that have been made about Meredith Kercher's sex-life, in order to prove that she had no reason to disapprove of Amanda's sex-life. I find it incredibly depressing that people have these views :(
 
This looks like a citation from Mignini's 2009 closing arguments.
The prosecutor was slightly more articulate.

First, draws a psychological picture of Knox as nurturing a feeling of humiliation/ wounded self because of Meredith's behaviour gradually cutting her out from friendship circle, and suggests Meredith being disturbed by some of Amanda's sexual behaviours, or Amanda feeling offended by Meredith's attitude, may have plaid a role. At least the sexual theme plaid a role as an a trigger of an argument, or somehow as an instrument in Knox's "revenge":



Then Mignini draws a scenario where an argument between them degenerates, and this the context of the presence of Guede high on drugs and alcohol in a sexual ruse situation and Sollecito also high after using extensive drugs. Then draws a picture of what an instigation to sexual violence as a trigger moment could look like:



Mgnini calls Knox's behaviour: "aggressione sessuale da rivalsa" ("a sexual aggression as a revenge"), also suggested Knox may have felt Meredith as "una smorfiosetta" ("prissy").
Mignii suggests Knox may have taken advantage of her abilty to manipulate Guede and Sollecito through the sexual attraction they were both feeling for her, and thus from their "competition" to please Amanda, especially in their condition of being unchained and uninhibited due to use of drugs.

I don't believe Mignini's scenario has any meaningful difference from Nencini's reasoning about motives. Both portray a situation that has a sexual element, but the sexual context is a minor component, only a context and not itself the main motive. Both point out that "motives" are complex, different from each participants and made of multiple reasons. All judges conclude that the crime builds up gradually as an escalation, from a smaller conflict or a smaller aggression and as a degeneration of an argument.

Out of many problems with Machiavelli's own summary of Mignini's speech about the psychosexual maladies he sees in Amanda Knox.....

.... are the highlighted bits.

Like everything on the PM/Judge side of things, they get to speculate; something "may have happened", something "may be true" even if there was nothing entered at trial.

Yet the burden on the defence!? As per contamination - it is not required that a DNA lab show it has competence or even follows protocol, other than asking the technician herself.... but the defence has to prove a route of contamination!

However, getting back to the specifics of Machiavelli's excellent summary of Mignini's sexual fantasies about this case, where is the evidence that:

1) Knox had a psychological profile of a "humiliated/wounded self"?
2) Meredith was cutting Knox out of the circle of friendship? (Where is there any evidence that Meredith was this catty?)
3) Meredith was disturbed by some of Knox's sexual behaviours? (For heaven's sake, they borrowed condoms from each other.)
4) Amanda was offended by Meredith's (imagined) attitude? (Note how Mignini buttresses one fantasy with another!)
5) There was ANY element of sexual revenge, or even simple revenge in this killing? (Massei is plain in saying the trigger for the killing was Rudy's lust.)
6) Raffaele used "extensive" drugs, as opposed to Rudy simply only using drugs?
7) Sexual violence, other than Rudy's lust, was the trigger for this murder?
8) Knox regarded Meredith as "prissy"?
9) That Knox had an ability to manipulate Guede and/or Sollecito, particularly since there is no record of Knox ever, in any meaningful sense, communicating with Guede?
10) Guede and Sollicto were competing for Amanda's attention?​

This is all Mignini's fantasy, built on his "may haves". Can you imagine sitting their in court listening to yourself described this way, knowing that your fate is in the hands of a madman, and that because he is a PM, the court will listen to him, just because?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom