Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Antony]

.
I am confident that if Amanda and Meredith's fates were reversed, and Mignini was railroading Meredith with one of his sex crime fantasies, then most of the same people now defending Amanda and Raffaele would be defending Meredith, and most of the same people attacking Amanda now would be attacking Meredith.

Cody
.

I have often thought the same. The mind boggles as to what the hate-press would have made of the Kerchers' family dynamics, and Meredith's alleged criticism of Amanda - had the girls' fate been the other way.

Giacomo Silenzi is perhaps the one person in the saga who was most fortunate to escape the misdirected attention of the police - in that it wasn't he and Meredith who chanced upon Amanda's corpse, but also because he was another person conveniently close to the actual victim. Of course practically any of Meredith's associates could have been targetted by the police instead of Amanda.

 

[christianahannah]

This looks like a citation from Mignini's 2009 closing arguments.
The prosecutor was slightly more articulate.

First, draws a psychological picture of Knox as nurturing a feeling of humiliation/ wounded self because of Meredith's behaviour gradually cutting her out from friendship circle, and suggests Meredith being disturbed by some of Amanda's sexual behaviours, or Amanda feeling offended by Meredith's attitude, may have plaid a role. At least the sexual theme plaid a role as an a trigger of an argument, or somehow as an instrument in Knox's "revenge":



Then Mignini draws a scenario where an argument between them degenerates, and this the context of the presence of Guede high on drugs and alcohol in a sexual ruse situation and Sollecito also high after using extensive drugs. Then draws a picture of what an instigation to sexual violence as a trigger moment could look like:



Mgnini calls Knox's behaviour: "aggressione sessuale da rivalsa" ("a sexual aggression as a revenge"), also suggested Knox may have felt Meredith as "una smorfiosetta" ("prissy").
Mignii suggests Knox may have taken advantage of her abilty to manipulate Guede and Sollecito through the sexual attraction they were both feeling for her, and thus from their "competition" to please Amanda, especially in their condition of being unchained and uninhibited due to use of drugs.

I don't believe Mignini's scenario has any meaningful difference from Nencini's reasoning about motives. Both portray a situation that has a sexual element, but the sexual context is a minor component, only a context and not itself the main motive. Both point out that "motives" are complex, different from each participants and made of multiple reasons. All judges conclude that the crime builds up gradually as an escalation, from a smaller conflict or a smaller aggression and as a degeneration of an argument.

Thank you for this. When listening to Mignini speak (from many avenues) I thought there would be more to it. He is very articulate and very deliberate in his speech.

Journalists may be constrained in what they write by time, space, language barrier, and not being present at an event of which they are responsible for covering. And the translation aspect from Italian to English is sometimes difficult to convey in its entirety.

 

[christianahannah]

Comic Sans documents (sorry I'm not allowed to post links):

on amandaknoxcase dot com
/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2010-11-10-Deposition-Zaccaro.pdf
wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2010-12-02-Correspondence-police-DeMaio-Bersano.pdf
wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2010-11-19-Correspondence-police-Aviello-missing.pdf

on themurderofmeredithkercher dot com
/docupl/spublic/filelibrary/2007investigations/arrests/2007-11-06-Police-notification-Knox-Sollecito-Lumumba-arrest.pdf

…after 10 min of research

Yes, I remember seeing many of these when looking at the files.

It doesn't bother me whatever font is used and I rather like comic sans but maybe that is an age thing? It doesn't change the meaning of the words or what is being investigated and I think it flows better than some of the old, official fonts.

As I wrote upthread many other countries are using this font for documents in recent time so maybe it will eventually become a respected and accepted font.

 

[carbonjam72]

Coulsdon, kindly explain how the above two posts of yours can be reconciled.



Yet the Kerchers have voluntarily taken part in this "media frenzy", by appearing on TV at every stage expressing satisfaction at guilty verdicts, dismay at the Hellmann acquittal - and John Kercher publishing a book attacking Amanda Knox. This is while their "supporters" in the online blogosphere repeatedly claim that they have "maintained a dignified silence". How do you account for this behaviour?

What kind of a "search for truth" is it, when they ignore experts like Dr Peter Gill?

The Kerchers could easily request the opinions of the leading experts in the UK (so as good as any in the world, right?), but instead they keep their heads in the sand and continue to attack two innocent people and their families.

I can understand grief. I truly can not understand this level of prolonged unprincipled blind grasping for vengeance against anyone available.

I have sympathy for their loss, but zero sympathy for their ill considered, possibly mercenary, thirst for blind vengeance.

 

[carbonjam72]

Yes, I remember seeing many of these when looking at the files.

It doesn't bother me whatever font is used and I rather like comic sans but maybe that is an age thing? It doesn't change the meaning of the words or what is being investigated and I think it flows better than some of the old, official fonts.

As I wrote upthread many other countries are using this font for documents in recent time so maybe it will eventually become a respected and accepted font.

You're talking about a manifest madman unspooling his depraved fantasies in a courtroom over an entire day, with no evidentiary support of any kind. He did so with enthusiasm, and took pleasure in the convictions of the defendants and suffering of their families. I don't have words that do justice to Giuliano Mignini. It makes me sick to think about the gentleman.

 

[christianahannah]

Ad hominem as soon as new blood arrives, Whack 'em All, wolf-pack, 75-IQ strategy:
- no accepted on most forums
- you have no argument on the issue offered

I thank you for your work on the videos. I no longer post on PMF for personal reasons but still read there (I like this forum better as I feel it offers refuge to all thoughts on this case).

I like how you ask for help and correction being not sure that everything you have translated is correct.

If you post a few more times here you will be able to link. I don't remember how many posts one needs to do that but I don't think they are many.

 

[NancyS]

Thank you for this. When listening to Mignini speak (from many avenues) I thought there would be more to it. He is very articulate and very deliberate in his speech.

Journalists may be constrained in what they write by time, space, language barrier, and not being present at an event of which they are responsible for covering. And the translation aspect from Italian to English is sometimes difficult to convey in its entirety.

Do you think the way he has used the fairly average sex life of a young woman, to make her appear to be somehow morally repugnant, is in anyway OK? Do you think it is OK for Mignini to suggest (without evidence), that this crime was motivated by Amanda's 'sexual magnetism' and Meredith's discomfort with Amanda's sex life, which was very similar to the sex-life of Meredith Kercher - and being high on drugs for which there is no evidence they ever took? Do you really believe that it is ethical that Mignini brought these inventions/fantasies into court?

I have no doubt he is articulate - but being articulate does not make you a good and ethical person

 

[christianahannah]

You're talking about a manifest madman unspooling his depraved fantasies in a courtroom over an entire day, with no evidentiary support of any kind. He did so with enthusiasm, and took pleasure in the convictions of the defendants and suffering of their families. I don't have words that do justice to Giuliano Mignini. It makes me sick to think about the gentleman.

Sometimes I wonder if it is not the depraved fantasies of those who write about him being projected on to what he actually says.

He didn't and hasn't take pleasure in any of the convictions if one reads and listens to what he says.

 

[Dan O.]

Maybe it was a lawyer who picked it from the trial file and sold it, or a clerk. Why do you rule out so many lawyers who accessed the files (Lumumba's attorneys, etc.)? But even if it was one of the police photographers, this does not mean "authorities are orchestrating a media campaign against Knox".

Prove that the particular foto was in the trial file.

 

[Dan O.]

I suppose it could have been Maresca. From what we are told he's only on a contingency, so maybe he felt he deserved the money. But I see it could have been Pacelli too, because he probably wasn't getting paid either. You've picked some possibles there, I'll give you that.

No. Machiavelli is making another unsupported claim. In fact, the evidence contradicts his claim.

 

[carbonjam72]

Sometimes I wonder if it is not the depraved fantasies of those who write about him being projected on to what he actually says.

He didn't and hasn't take pleasure in any of the convictions if one reads and listens to what he says.

Well I do agree with you. If you read and listen to what Mignini says, and believe him, he doesn't see himself as a bad person, but rather as a devoted public servant.

So the question is, do you find Mignini credible when he speaks, writes and acts?

I do not. I question his credibility because he makes bizarre allegations without any evidence in support. Because he seems incapable of processing direct information, and incapable of admitting error.

I don't think we'll wind up agreeing on Mignini's character and motivation. I will say though, that I do believe we are both correct. I believe Mignini's psyche is split, and that he dances back and forth between truth and fantasy, and then projects his fantasies onto others.

But I will consider your comments, with respect to what baggage I may be bringing to the discussion.

 

[Kauffer]

No. Machiavelli is making another unsupported claim. In fact, the evidence contradicts his claim.

Yes quite. I was ridiculing his argument.

 

[NancyS]

Sometimes I wonder if it is not the depraved fantasies of those who write about him being projected on to what he actually says.

He didn't and hasn't take pleasure in any of the convictions if one reads and listens to what he says.

But he uses the very normal sex-life of a young woman, to make her appear morally deficient. Do you think this is an ethical thing to do?

 

[christianahannah]

Do you think the way he has used the fairly average sex life of a young woman, to make her appear to be somehow morally repugnant, is in anyway OK? Do you think it is OK for Mignini to suggest (without evidence), that this crime was motivated by Amanda's 'sexual magnetism' and Meredith's discomfort with Amanda's sex life, which was very similar to the sex-life of Meredith Kercher - and being high on drugs for which there is no evidence they ever took? Do you really believe that it is ethical that Mignini brought these inventions/fantasies into court?

From what I have read (and I will continue reading to get a clearer picture of what was actually said and how it was said) I don't at this time think that is a fair representation of what Mignini said. I may change my mind later after I read the closing arguments which I do not have but am sure they will become available sometime.

I don't think Mignini made Amanda appear to be morally repugnant because she had several sexual contacts in the past. I don't think that played in his argument at all. From testimony given Meredith was uncomfortable with who Amanda was bringing to the cottage, both Amanda and Raffaele admitted to having smoked at least twice that afternoon/evening (accounting for their foggy memory of that evening) and as for the attraction of Raffaele and Rudy to Amanda they were both attracted to her. He took those elements that were given at trial and wove them into an account of what might have happened.

If I recall it was Patrick's attorney who was rather over the top in his portrayal of Amanda and Maresca asked about Amanda's sexual life (that I have only read but not seen in transcripts).

 

[NancyS]

Well I do agree with you. If you read and listen to what Mignini says, and believe him, he doesn't see himself as a bad person, but rather as a devoted public servant.

So the question is, do you find Mignini credible when he speaks, writes and acts?

I do not. I question his credibility because he makes bizarre allegations without any evidence in support. Because he seems incapable of processing direct information, and incapable of admitting error.

I don't think we'll wind up agreeing on Mignini's character and motivation. I will say though, that I do believe we are both correct. I believe Mignini's psyche is split, and that he dances back and forth between truth and fantasy, and then projects his fantasies onto others.

But I will consider your comments, with respect to what baggage I may be bringing to the discussion.

I would expect there is a bit of a Madonna-Whore complex going on

 

[carbonjam72]

From what I have read (and I will continue reading to get a clearer picture of what was actually said and how it was said) I don't at this time think that is a fair representation of what Mignini said. I may change my mind later after I read the closing arguments which I do not have but am sure they will become available sometime.

I don't think Mignini made Amanda appear to be morally repugnant because she had several sexual contacts in the past. I don't think that played in his argument at all. From testimony given Meredith was uncomfortable with who Amanda was bringing to the cottage, both Amanda and Raffaele admitted to having smoked at least twice that afternoon/evening (accounting for their foggy memory of that evening) and as for the attraction of Raffaele and Rudy to Amanda they were both attracted to her. He took those elements that were given at trial and wove them into an account of what might have happened.
If I recall it was Patrick's attorney who was rather over the top in his portrayal of Amanda and Maresca asked about Amanda's sexual life (that I have only read but not seen in transcripts).

Are you aware of any proof that supports Mignini's account of what "might have happened"?

If not, would you consider this a responsible act from a public servant? To speculate about the guilt on a murder charge, against two people, with no evidence that could stand up to the light of day?

 

[christianahannah]

But he uses the very normal sex-life of a young woman, to make her appear morally deficient. Do you think this is an ethical thing to do?

If Mignini said in court or elsewhere that Amanda was morally deficient due to her (normal) sex life that would not be ethical in my opinion.

 

[carbonjam72]

I would expect there is a bit of a Madonna-Whore complex going on

I don't think there is any doubt that Mignini is a head case. An unstable madman who became a prosecutor. The stuff of nightmares.

 

[NancyS]

From what I have read (and I will continue reading to get a clearer picture of what was actually said and how it was said) I don't at this time think that is a fair representation of what Mignini said. I may change my mind later after I read the closing arguments which I do not have but am sure they will become available sometime.

I don't think Mignini made Amanda appear to be morally repugnant because she had several sexual contacts in the past. I don't think that played in his argument at all. From testimony given Meredith was uncomfortable with who Amanda was bringing to the cottage, both Amanda and Raffaele admitted to having smoked at least twice that afternoon/evening (accounting for their foggy memory of that evening) and as for the attraction of Raffaele and Rudy to Amanda they were both attracted to her. He took those elements that were given at trial and wove them into an account of what might have happened.

If I recall it was Patrick's attorney who was rather over the top in his portrayal of Amanda and Maresca asked about Amanda's sexual life (that I have only read but not seen in transcripts).

In other words he 'sexed-up', the very normal student behaviour - behaviour, which was no different from Meredith Kercher's. It makes me sad that this is continually done to young women - and it is the same attitude that sees many rape victims blamed for what they wore, or because they had drunk alcohol or because they had previously had sex. Most young students could have had their lives sensationalised and vilified in the same way.

Do you think it is in anyway believable that a young woman, with no history of violence, would persuade her boyfriend and some random they had just met, to sexually assault another young woman because she was too 'prissy' - and both men go along with this as they were just too sexually attracted to AK to say no? This is what Mignini suggests - and to me this has no basis in reality and appears to be the sort of plot you would see in fairly unpleasant pornography

 

[christianahannah]

Are you aware of any proof that supports Mignini's account of what "might have happened"?

If not, would you consider this a responsible act from a public servant? To speculate about the guilt on a murder charge, against two people, with no evidence that could stand up to the light of day?

I think there was some evidence to tie those together but those weren't the only factors in closing arguments and a small part at that. I am not sure what is allowed to be spoken in closing arguments (such as speculation based on evidence admitted as to what might have happened).