The Historical Jesus II

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So, he demanded to know what their religion was all about, and they said "Our religion is nothing more than depraved and excessive superstition". Fine. OK.

So what are you arguing about? You invent your own stories and then want people to believe them.

Craig B said:
If you know of any community of non Christians who worship the messiah as a god, simply tell me who they are. Muslims for example venerate Jesus as a prophet, not as God. I would say that Christians, or Christ worshippers, is a good definition of this faith, that Pliny described, and that exists to this day.

You committed elementary breaches of logic. You are unable to provide evidence for your claims. It is always illogical to assume and to do so without evidence.
 
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No, you are wrong.

The Hj argument is still very much alive. They teach it at many Universities all over the world. It is the most likely explanation for the origin of Christianity, despite what Richard Carrier says about Davidic sperm banks in the sky...

They teach that Jesus exist at UNIVERSITY chapels.

Go to UNIVERSITY Chapels and you will see Scholars praying to Jesus for salvation.
 
They teach that Jesus exist at UNIVERSITY chapels.

Go to UNIVERSITY Chapels and you will see Scholars praying to Jesus for salvation.

Go to University History departments and you will find Historians teaching about the HJ, not praying.

The point is that the HJ argument is not dead and it will take a lot more than posting nonsense on this forum to kill it.
 
So what are you arguing about? You invent your own stories and then want people to believe them.
If you think I want people to believe that Pliny demanded to know what their religion was all about, and they said "Our religion is nothing more than depraved and excessive superstition", than you're very much mistaken.
You committed elementary breaches of logic. You are unable to provide evidence for your claims. It is always illogical to assume and to do so without evidence.
I assume that Christians worship the messiah as God. Yes, because I have evidence of that. If you have evidence of non-Christian communities who worship the messiah as God, please provide it.
 
They teach that Jesus exist at UNIVERSITY chapels.
Yes, they teach that in Christian chapels everywhere. In Muslim places of worship in universities they teach that the Angel Gabriel gave the Quran to Muhammad. Your point is ... ?
 
Yes, they teach that in Christian chapels everywhere. In Muslim places of worship in universities they teach that the Angel Gabriel gave the Quran to Muhammad. Your point is ... ?



What they should be teaching is the truth. And the truth is that there is no evidence for the long held belief that Jesus was a real person.

And further they should be explaining why there is now clear evidence to show how the biblical stories of Jesus were always fiction. For example, we now know that miracles are physically impossible (even if some deluded theists still believe in them), and we now know that the gospel writers were creating their Jesus stories from the old testament. And we also now know that a great deal of the biblical and non-biblical writing about Jesus, was "interpolated", i.e. fabricated. In fact more than that, we also now know that complete documents, such as many of the letters of "Paul" were entirely fabricated by later Christians.

It is also now common knowledge (which no doubt was not always such common knowledge) that there are no gospels or letters existing from the 1st century as the church and bible scholars had always pretended, and that in fact "extant" copies, i.e. actually existing writing, came centuries later than the supposed time of Jesus. And there is a whole mass of other evidence like that which casts very serious doubt on the origin of all the written mentions of Jesus, both biblical and non-biblical, and even more grave doubt upon the motives of those bible scholars and Christians who have misrepresented all of that material for nearly 2000 years.

That's what they should be teaching in any honest US or European university that bothers to waste it's time (and tax payers money) on any courses about belief in Jesus and the bible.
 
What they should be teaching is the truth. And the truth is that there is no evidence for the long held belief that Jesus was a real person.

And further they should be explaining why there is now clear evidence to show how the biblical stories of Jesus were always fiction. For example, we now know that miracles are physically impossible (even if some deluded theists still believe in them), and we now know that the gospel writers were creating their Jesus stories from the old testament. And we also now know that a great deal of the biblical and non-biblical writing about Jesus, was "interpolated", i.e. fabricated. In fact more than that, we also now know that complete documents, such as many of the letters of "Paul" were entirely fabricated by later Christians.

It is also now common knowledge (which no doubt was not always such common knowledge) that there are no gospels or letters existing from the 1st century as the church and bible scholars had always pretended, and that in fact "extant" copies, i.e. actually existing writing, came centuries later than the supposed time of Jesus. And there is a whole mass of other evidence like that which casts very serious doubt on the origin of all the written mentions of Jesus, both biblical and non-biblical, and even more grave doubt upon the motives of those bible scholars and Christians who have misrepresented all of that material for nearly 2000 years.

That's what they should be teaching in any honest US or European university that bothers to waste it's time (and tax payers money) on any courses about belief in Jesus and the bible.

Well what are you waiting for? Go get on the phone now and start calling all those University History Departments and explaining to all of those History Professors about how you know so much more about their professions than they do... Start with these guys:
http://www.gla.ac.uk/coursecatalogue/course/?code=TRS4033
http://sydney.edu.au/arts/hebrew_bi...rgrad/units_of_study.shtml?u=BBCL_2609_2015_1
http://www.handbook.mq.edu.au/2014/Units/PGUnit/ECJS853
https://www.ice.cam.ac.uk/component/courses/?view=course&cid=9172

I'm sure they will come to their senses when you tell them all about Richard Carrier's heavenly sperm bank...:rolleyes:
 
Thank you Brainache. The current point at issue is the early existence of the Church. Trajan's testimony pushes it back to the eighties, assuming his informants weren't deceiving him. That has implications for the date of Paul, for example. So, not second century. And not 100 BCE either, it seems to me.



Well it's not evidence of Jesus is it!

Why are you bothering to argue with Max or dejudge or anyone else about possible dates when writers like Pliny and Trajan may have thought that people we now call "Christians", first began to preach their messiah beliefs? It's not going to produce evidence of a human Jesus known to anyone, is it!

We now have years of posts here from you, and we are still waiting for any credible evidence of any reliable report that anyone at all had ever met a human Jesus!

When are you going to produce the evidence of Jesus?

This is becoming just like the HJ thread we had here some years ago when a well known member named “Piggy” insisted that we would all discover the evidence of a HJ if he posted page after page of quotes and discussion from every conceivable non-biblical historian writing prior to about 400AD. And after he’d done that, we still all had to ask him where in all of his voluminous “history lessons” was the claimed evidence of a HJ ... to which his response was to have a temper tantrum, chuck all his toys out of his pram, and tell us that the evidence was buried in all that he’d previously written, and that the rest of should have spotted his “evidence” if only we had the foresight and understanding that he had. But the truth was the claimed evidence just was not there.
 
Go to University History departments and you will find Historians teaching about the HJ, not praying.

You will find Christian Scholars in the Chapels of Universities praying to Jesus for salvation and to get eternal life.

Christian Scholars must accept by FAITH that the Christian Bible is a very credible historical source and cannot deny the existence of Jesus or else they will be personally denied entrance to heaven by Jesus himself.

Matthew 10:33--- But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Brainache said:
The point is that the HJ argument is not dead and it will take a lot more than posting nonsense on this forum to kill it.

The HJ argument is dead.

The HJ argument is the very worst kind of argument because it is directly based on the Christian Bible which is used to ARGUE AGAINST the historical Jesus [a man with a human father].

Jesus of the Christian Bible is God of God and born of a Ghost yet in a most desperate display of intellectual dishonesty the same Christian Bible is used to argue that Jesus of the NT had a human father by those who admit the Christian Bible is NOT historically credible.

What a ridiculous bizarre HJ argument!!!
 
Christian Scholars must accept by FAITH that the Christian Bible is a very credible historical source and cannot deny the existence of Jesus or else they will be personally denied entrance to heaven by Jesus himself.

It's abundantly clear you have no understanding of what goes on in theological seminaries and schools of divinity. Your grasp of "credible" and "historical" is not all that it might be.
 
It's abundantly clear you have no understanding of what goes on in theological seminaries and schools of divinity. Your grasp of "credible" and "historical" is not all that it might be.


OK, so, tell us your experience of what actually does "go on" in "theological seminaries and schools of divinity". And while you are doing that, please tell us how it is evidence of a human Jesus known to any of these people.
 
It's abundantly clear you have no understanding of what goes on in theological seminaries and schools of divinity. Your grasp of "credible" and "historical" is not all that it might be.

Your statement is total nonsense.

Historians and Scholars are presently arguing that Jesus was a figure of mythology.

However, CHRISTIAN Scholars must tell the world that Jesus existed in order to go to heaven.

CHRISTIAN Scholars must say the the Christian Bible is a very credible historical source and must do so without corroborative evidence from antiquity.

The VAST majority of Scholars who argue for an historical Jesus are CHRISTIANS.
 
You will find Christian Scholars in the Chapels of Universities praying to Jesus for salvation and to get eternal life.

Christian Scholars must accept by FAITH that the Christian Bible is a very credible historical source and cannot deny the existence of Jesus or else they will be personally denied entrance to heaven by Jesus himself.
That may well be WHAT happens in Chapels of Universities. But in the lecture THEATRES of the same universities atheist scholars explain why they consider it probable that THERE was a historical Jesus.

If you think they're doing that because they desire salvation THEN you're spouting balderdash again. Consider this, dejudge; if these scholars DIDN'T believe in any Jesus why WOULD they be concerned about him letting them into Heaven? Your view of this sounds like depraved EXCESSIVE superstition to me.
 
That may well be WHAT happens in Chapels of Universities. But in the lecture THEATRES of the same universities atheist scholars explain why they consider it probable that THERE was a historical Jesus.

Atheists and CHRISTIAN Scholars use the very same admitted discredited Christian Bible to argue for an historical Jesus in or outside Chapels.

It is completely ridiculous and intellectually dishonest to use admitted sources of historical problems, discrepancies, HALLUCINATIONS, contradiction, fiction, falsehood, forgeries and false attribution as credible historical sources and to do so without contemporary corroborative evidence from antiquity.

The Christian Bible is completely useless to argue that Jesus of Nazareth was a mere man with a human father.

In antiquity the historical Jesus was a known lie and the Christian Bible was used to ARGUE AGAINST the historical Jesus [a man with a human father.

Craig B said:
If you think they're doing that because they desire salvation THEN you're spouting balderdash again. Consider this, dejudge; if these scholars DIDN'T believe in any Jesus why WOULD they be concerned about him letting them into Heaven? Your view of this sounds like depraved EXCESSIVE superstition to me.

Again, you display intellectual dishonesty. I don't accept the Christian Bible as a credible historical source.

Your use of the Christian Bible to argue for an historical Jesus may be a sign of "depraved excessive superstition".

Jesus of the NT was a Transfiguring Sea water walker, born of a Ghost and God Creator yet you believe Jesus was REALLY real.

What depraved excessive superstition!!!??
 
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Well it's not evidence of Jesus is it!

Why are you bothering to argue with Max or dejudge or anyone else about possible dates when writers like Pliny and Trajan may have thought that people we now call "Christians", first began to preach their messiah beliefs? It's not going to produce evidence of a human Jesus known to anyone, is it!

We now have years of posts here from you, and we are still waiting for any credible evidence of any reliable report that anyone at all had ever met a human Jesus!

When are you going to produce the evidence of Jesus?

This is becoming just like the HJ thread we had here some years ago when a well known member named “Piggy” insisted that we would all discover the evidence of a HJ if he posted page after page of quotes and discussion from every conceivable non-biblical historian writing prior to about 400AD. And after he’d done that, we still all had to ask him where in all of his voluminous “history lessons” was the claimed evidence of a HJ ... to which his response was to have a temper tantrum, chuck all his toys out of his pram, and tell us that the evidence was buried in all that he’d previously written, and that the rest of should have spotted his “evidence” if only we had the foresight and understanding that he had. But the truth was the claimed evidence just was not there.

If you didn't like Piggy's approach to the study of History, why not try one of these Universities?:

Well what are you waiting for? Go get on the phone now and start calling all those University History Departments and explaining to all of those History Professors about how you know so much more about their professions than they do... Start with these guys:
http://www.gla.ac.uk/coursecatalogue/course/?code=TRS4033
http://sydney.edu.au/arts/hebrew_bi...rgrad/units_of_study.shtml?u=BBCL_2609_2015_1
http://www.handbook.mq.edu.au/2014/Units/PGUnit/ECJS853
https://www.ice.cam.ac.uk/component/courses/?view=course&cid=9172

I'm sure they will come to their senses when you tell them all about Richard Carrier's heavenly sperm bank...:rolleyes:

Or maybe there is a University closer to where you are, ask them how they can teach HJ when you know so much better, they love that...
 
This, and the rest of your post, is entirely baseless.

No it isn't.

Pliny knew what a god was

From another culture? Would Pliny really know the difference between a deus, numen and genius loci seen through a Jews culture lens? Especially in a cult that by 180 CE was a schismed mess?

and he knew what a christ was. His uncle had even studied and published on the topic of Jewish sects. But in any case, so what, even if what you say is true? Christians, and they alone, worship the Messiah as a god.

Again we hit the translation issue. Is Pliny saying as 'to a god' or 'as if to a god'.

Also way back in 1880 there was "The angel-messiah of Buddhists, Essenes, and Christians" so the idea of the messiah as an angel (as if to a god) has been around a long time.

Note that c180 Irenaeus talks of those (Christians?) "who say that Jesus was merely a receptacle of Christ" (Against Heresies 3.16.1)

Irenaeus also talks of Saturninus who "maintained that the God of the Jews was one of the angels" - Against Heresies (1.24.2)

We then get Basilides who...well best let Irenaeus himself speak on the matter as trying to figure out what he is actually saying makes my head hurt:

"He sets forth that Nous was first born of the unborn father, that from him, again, was born Logos, from Logos Phronesis, from Phronesis Sophia and Dynamis, and from Dynamis and Sophia the powers, and principalities, and angels, whom he also calls the first; and that by them the first heaven was made"

"Those angels who occupy the lowest heaven, that, namely, which is visible to us, formed all the things which are in the world, and made allotments among themselves of the earth and of those nations which are upon it. The chief of them is he who is thought to be the God of the Jews; and inasmuch as he desired to render the other nations subject to his own people, that is, the Jews, all the other princes resisted and opposed him. Wherefore all other nations were at enmity with his nation. But the father without birth and without name, perceiving that they would be destroyed, sent his own first-begotten Nous (he it is who is called Christ) to bestow deliverance on those who believe in him, from the power of those who made the world. He appeared, then, on earth as a man, to the nations of these powers, and wrought miracles. Wherefore he did not himself suffer death, but Simon, a certain man of Cyrene, being compelled, bore the cross in his stead; so that this latter being transfigured by him, that he might be thought to be Jesus, was crucified, through ignorance and error, while Jesus himself received the form of Simon, and, standing by, laughed at them."

If Pliny was dealing with those or any other "Heresies" then who knows what he was dealing with. Messianic Judaism and Christianity coexisted for a time and given the variety there was in both we can't exclude short lived variants.
 
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That may well be WHAT happens in Chapels of Universities. But in the lecture THEATRES of the same universities atheist scholars explain why they consider it probable that THERE was a historical Jesus.



Few if any of those lecture theatres & lecturers are in university mainstream history departments though are they! And we have shown that here literally hundreds times, despite the constant appeal to authority from you and others trying to falsely claim that people such as Bart Ehrman, Dominic Crossan and tens of thousands of their colleagues (especially in the USA) are "historians" teaching full-time three year undergraduate and postgraduate degree courses in ordinary secular history dept's.

They are absolutely certainly not "historians" in that sense. They are bible scholars. And if they are teaching in mainstream universities at all (see below), they are typically working in specific bible studies departments, not in the mainstream secular area of history dept's. In fact a large number of them are of course not in normal universities, but are instead teaching in schools of divinity and theological colleges.

You are talking about bible studies lectures in bible studies dept's and religious institutes of various types. Not, about the vast majority of historians in mainstream university history departments.
 
Few if any of those lecture theatres & lecturers are in university mainstream history departments though are they! And we have shown that here literally hundreds times, despite the constant appeal to authority from you and others trying to falsely claim that people such as Bart Ehrman, Dominic Crossan and tens of thousands of their colleagues (especially in the USA) are "historians" teaching full-time three year undergraduate and postgraduate degree courses in ordinary secular history dept's.

They are absolutely certainly not "historians" in that sense. They are bible scholars. And if they are teaching in mainstream universities at all (see below), they are typically working in specific bible studies departments, not in the mainstream secular area of history dept's. In fact a large number of them are of course not in normal universities, but are instead teaching in schools of divinity and theological colleges.

You are talking about bible studies lectures in bible studies dept's and religious institutes of various types. Not, about the vast majority of historians in mainstream university history departments.

It would be nice to see a list of these universities that have a history department that has full time biblical scholars who champion the HJ rather than this lame argument from anonymous authorities.
 
Few if any of those lecture theatres & lecturers are in university mainstream history departments though are they! And we have shown that here literally hundreds times, despite the constant appeal to authority from you and others trying to falsely claim that people such as Bart Ehrman, Dominic Crossan and tens of thousands of their colleagues (especially in the USA) are "historians" teaching full-time three year undergraduate and postgraduate degree courses in ordinary secular history dept's.

They are absolutely certainly not "historians" in that sense. They are bible scholars. And if they are teaching in mainstream universities at all (see below), they are typically working in specific bible studies departments, not in the mainstream secular area of history dept's. In fact a large number of them are of course not in normal universities, but are instead teaching in schools of divinity and theological colleges.

You are talking about bible studies lectures in bible studies dept's and religious institutes of various types. Not, about the vast majority of historians in mainstream university history departments.

This is not true. I've already posted a small list of secular University History departments that teach about the HJ which you are apparently ignoring. Do your own Google search for "Historical Jesus University Course", there are lots out there and not all of them are Theological Schools. Any University that teaches Ancient History will have a unit on Roman Palestine (or similar). Some of them might be taught by Bible Scholars, but not all of them. You could try asking your nearest University, but I doubt you will.

If you can find any examples of University History departments that teach about Carrier's celestial sub-lunar Jesus, I'd like to see them.

Remember that saying the gospel stories have been embellished is not the same as "Mythical Jesus".
 
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