'What about building 7'?

[pgimeno]

You refuse to get into the numbers and complain when we say you don´t have the answers. You also belive two contradicting things: that it is impossible to explain the number, and that the column displacment could explain it. Cognitive dissonance 101.

What a blatant misrepresentation of my position.

It's impossible for you and me to explain the numbers, yes.

But that's not in contradiction with "the column displacement could explain it". It contradicts with "the column displacement DOES explain it", which was never my position.

gerrycan made the claim that the walk-off was impossible "because the beams can't expand that long" (paraphrased).

I pointed out that the column also displaced, and therefore that argument is flawed.

As simple as that.

No dissonance. Just rhetorical trickery on your side.

And so far the only response to lack of data for a 6.25 inch expansion is that NIST must have it somewhere because it is NIST, and no-one here or in AE911 is qualified enough to doubt it.

Another misrepresentation. No one in AE911T with authority in the subject of forensic engineering (if there's one) has presented a technical study based on their expertise in that field.

Do you agree?

 

[pgimeno]

Yes. The idea that what the "Truthers" arguing is about public safety is laughable. The NIST threw out the blanket to cover fire control and occupant egress. To argue the NIST didn't cover the code concern is the same as arguing fire can not hurt a steel framed building.

Ok, let me ask this to gerrycan.

Gerry, which of the adopted recommendations that DGM posted do you think need to be changed, based on your conclusions about the report?

 

[DGM]

Ok, let me ask this to gerrycan.

Gerry, which of the adopted recommendations that DGM posted do you think need to be changed, based on your conclusions about the report?

I'd like to add. What recommendation would you add based on your research.

 

[pgimeno]

I'd like to add. What recommendation would you add based on your research.

"New investigation" in 5... 4... 3...

 

[Ziggi]

What a blatant misrepresentation of my position.

It's impossible for you and me to explain the numbers, yes.

But that's not in contradiction with "the column displacement could explain it". It contradicts with "the column displacement DOES explain it", which was never my position.
gerrycan made the claim that the walk-off was impossible "because the beams can't expand that long" (paraphrased).

I pointed out that the column also displaced, and therefore that argument is flawed.

As simple as that.

No dissonance. Just rhetorical trickery on your side.

Pgimeno, 1) you are now declaring that it has never been your position that the alleged column displacement explains NIST´s 6.25 inch magic number, but yesterday you were endorsing that position:

pgimeno #4251
The claim that walk-off was impossible is based on the unproven assumption that, since NIST doesn't mention the column as a factor for walk-off, it happened after the walk-off. Here's some news for you: NIST doesn't mention it wasn't a factor either.

And 2) you are also now saying that you could possibly explain the magic number with the column displacement, and at the same time in the same post that you cannot explain the number.

And 3) in 4251 you also admitted that you cannot speak of the alleged column displacement as a fact because NIST does not say so, and asked me to ask NIST to resolve the matter:

Go ask NIST and tell us back what they said.

And now again, about 24 hours later you are also completely reversing your position on this as well and declaring that "the column also displaced".

I cannot judge whether you are displaying such a sever case of cognitive dissonance or if you are just the type that makes up bs on the go due to dishonesty, but your performance is quite jaw-dropping, as previously noted:

Your position almost changes by the hour, from making up stories about leverage effect and column displacement to show how NIST came up with the assumed 6.25 inch displacement, to refusing to talk about the subject when those stories have been shown to be false, to claiming that the report can account for the numbers, and back to refusing to talk about the numbers when that is challenged.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10516049&postcount=4282

<SNIP>

Edited by jsfisher: 

Rule 0/12 violation removed.

 

[pgimeno]

What a rhetoric juggling.

You're seriously committed to bogging down the discussion, aren't you?

And 3) in 4251 you also admitted that you cannot speak of the alleged column displacement as a fact because NIST does not say so, and asked me to ask NIST to resolve the matter:

As a fact????????

As a factor!!!!!!

It's a fact that the column displacement is reported by NIST. I never said otherwise. I even pointed it out to gerrycan, as he was unaware of it! (and he called that BS and said I was the only one who was saying that - he hasn't retracted that or offered me an apology yet).

What kind of discussion are you engaging in? Get serious.

 

[Ziggi]

Originally Posted by Ziggi View Post
The fire driven collapse of the east penthouse and the whole building are two seperate issues, and neither are proven until someone proves them.

Ah, I see you've picked up a trick from the Holocaust deniers there; ignore the convergence of evidence and demand that every single element must separately prove the conventional narrative.
Dave

Holocaust denial smear. Oh wow that is so impressive. This sort of thing must have impressed Dr. Greening as well, and also the reason why JREF proudly sponsors you.

Hey pgimeno, do you want to tell us more about "what really happened" buddy?

 

[LSSBB]

Pgimeno, 1) you are now declaring that it has never been your position that the alleged column displacement explains NIST´s 6.25 inch magic number, but yesterday you were endorsing that position:



And 2) you are also now saying that you could possibly explain the magic number with the column displacement, and at the same time in the same post that you cannot explain the number.

And 3) in 4251 you also admitted that you cannot speak of the alleged column displacement as a fact because NIST does not say so, and asked me to ask NIST to resolve the matter:



And now again, about 24 hours later you are also completely reversing your position on this as well and declaring that "the column also displaced".

I cannot judge whether you are displaying such a sever case of cognitive dissonance or if you are just the type that makes up bs on the go due to dishonesty, but your performance is quite jaw-dropping, as previously noted:

Edited by jsfisher: 

Moderated content removed.

He has been consistent in his opinion in his debate with you, as you have consistently avoided delivering a full accounting of where all structural elements would be and how they would be deformed, in order to state clearly what your case is against NIST. Your handwaving away of possible column positions is obvious. No degree of bluster will cover it up.
You. Have. No. Case.

 

[Ziggi]

What a rhetoric juggling.

You're seriously committed to bogging down the discussion, aren't you?



As a fact????????

As a factor!!!!!!

It's a fact that the column displacement is reported by NIST. I never said otherwise. I even pointed it out to gerrycan, as he was unaware of it! (and he called that BS and said I was the only one who was saying that - he hasn't retracted that or offered me an apology yet).

What kind of discussion are you engaging in? Get serious.

Oh stop the BS, you know perfectly well that I am talking about NIST never saying that the displacment was a factor in the walk off, and that you have admitted that.

 

[jaydeehess]

[
Comment on what? That AE911T hangs its entire critique on a missing inch?

It is STILL as true today as it was years ago, that the only researched, known proximate cause for the collapse of WTC7 is the unfought fires in that structure. It requires no belief in unseen magical devices planted throughout the building. It requires no fantastical schemes and spooks.

The failure of column 79 is evident. The unfought fires are evident. That column 79 was in the area of floors on fire IS evident. NIST knows this, the ASCE knows this, the CTBUH knows this, even you know this.

Care to comment on what is evident to support any other cause of collapse?

Comment on the comment you cut out, of course. An inch? Is this a reading comprehension issue with you, or just very poor math skills? Need a "roadmap" like Jay and pgimeno? Repeated just for you:

Talk about unquoted portions.....

Your 3 inches is detail. Find a way to work that out with NIST. I suggest getting backing from a professional building or engineering organization such as the ASCE, perhaps the CTBUH. AE911T has no credibility due to the majority of its membership not haveing relevant credentials, having done little else than fundraising for the Gage continuous vacation.
How's that technical research and monthly update going? Has Mr. Sarns worked on another deep engineering project for AE911T, or maybe Mr. Chandler?

Now, care to comment on alternate evident processes that could cause structural loss of column 79?

Still backing controlled demolition of ALL columns 4 seconds before the entire building was rubble/ 12 seconds after collapse began? Easy peasy to prove that right. Girder from col 79-44 can be shown to have moved significantly. Oddly though you back a scenario of collapse initiation that simply cannot be shown to have been the case AT ALL. Then again maybe you, like MM, have thrown Chandler under the bus on that.

Are we moving closer to NIST and eventually claiming only one explosion, one that takes out col 79 below the 13th floor?
Or would that be tossing Szamboti out to lie beside Chandler?

Perhaps you have outlined YOUR scenario of collapse. Perhaps you'd give the post number for that?

 

[pgimeno]

Oh stop the BS, you know perfectly well that I am talking about NIST never saying that the displacment was a factor in the walk off, and that you have admitted that.

Nor did they say it wasn't, which is the part you conveniently forget.

I've rested my case. Whoever reads your post 4325 above with enough detail will realize that your statements about my words and my actual words are the exact opposite.

 

[Ziggi]

Your handwaving away of possible column positions is obvious..

You are just repeating non-sense because you got nothing to say but BS. I repeated my request to you guys yesterday to include the column:

No, I have asked you from the start to include your alleged column displacement in your calculations for the sake of argument, to see if it could possibly account for the missing distance. It can´t, and this is why you lads refuse to go into this further.

Floor beam expansion at 400C = roughly 3 inches
column displacement is due to girder expansion = roughly 2 inches, but would be split between two columns, so roughly 1 inch.

NIST walk off story needs 6.25 inches according NIST with the stiffener plates excluded.

Anyone want to do the math?

 

[Ziggi]

Nor did they say it wasn't, which is the part you conveniently forget.

I've rested my case. Whoever reads your post 4325 above with enough detail will realize that your statements about my words and my actual words are the exact opposite.

Sure bud, what ever you say.

 

[beachnut]

Holocaust denial smear. Oh wow that is so impressive. This sort of thing must have impressed Dr. Greening as well, and also the reason why JREF proudly sponsors you.

Hey pgimeno, do you want to tell us more about "what really happened" buddy?

Dr Greening was always teasing 911 truth believers; he would make up BS; suspect he was playing with us, and you, and 911 truth; he was bored. We knew he was Dr Greening, he said so - but when he posted BS, he was called on it. He would make up BS about 911, no big deal, you make up BS and refuse to post your CD theory, yet you have DtD, where it it appears you prefer lies about 911, vs facts and evidence. No big deal, you can't support your ideas on 911, so you bash NIST, and fail to do anything to shed light on 911.

http://911debunkers.blogspot.com/2015/02/new-911grassrootsorg-article.html Are you guys at debunking the debunkers anti-semtic; I had to save that page, it leads to mental illness; 911 Grassroots is a site filled with BS, anti-intellectual hate, and insane claims. Looks like debunking the debunkers web site is pure propagada, BS talk, and now anti-semtic BS. Now the truth is out, DtD is BS based on ignorance. Did DtD team with the "Jews did it" guys? And it gets worse, follow the links to insanity, ignorance, and failure.

What will you do with your "inside job" lies? Nothing, but big talk, and failed engineering. Ironically, it is possible your parents/grandparents paid for my engineering degree, my masters degree in engineering, my pilot training (valued at over 1 million dollars), and more training; and ironically your claims and effort fail on face value, make no sense with respect to engineering - at least fake some differential equations, or something to make it look like real engineering.

You deny fire destroyed WTC, and your movement attracts holocaust deniers' must be the gullibility factor. With peers like the Boston bombers, 911 truth inspire hate based on lies and fantasy. Why are you fooled by the 911 truth lies? The free-fall BS, the insane thermite claims, and the high explosives that make no sound? Lies fooled the Boston bombers, and you deny the truth by supporting lie about 911.

What caused the collapse of WTC 7 in your theory?

Why can't you explain your theory? You are the NISTian, bashing a probable cause of NIST unarmed with engineering and science, using BS to form no point. You make claims and never back it up.

If you can't present your theory, your failed attempt to bash NIST is silly. Who needs NIST to know fire did it? Not me; you need NIST to back in your failed CD lies, and it make zero sense; your posts are ridiculous.


If you can't prove CD, you are wasting your time bashing NIST, you don't understand engineering models, like most in 911 truth.

 

[Ziggi]

http://911debunkers.blogspot.com/2015/02/new-911grassrootsorg-article.html Are you guys at debunking the debunkers anti-semtic; I had to save that page, it leads to mental illness; 911 Grassroots is a site filled with BS, anti-intellectual hate, and insane claims. Looks like debunking the debunkers web site is pure propagada, BS talk, and now anti-semtic BS...

1) That article is not written by the debunkingthedebunkers
2) The article is about referencing and debunking Bollyn who insist that Israel did it. That you try to twist that into anti-semitism exposes you for the kind of guy you are, but all your other posts have already done that anyway....so no surprises. Have a nice day.

 

[beachnut]

1) That article is not written by the debunkingthedebunkers
2) The article is about referencing and debunking Bollyn who insist that Israel did it. That you try to twist that into anti-semitism exposes you for the kind of guy you are, but all your other posts have already done that anyway....so no surprises. Have a nice day.

anti-antisemitism -

Which Cabal did it? Don't worry, your posts and Talboo's post are not up to the level of this nonsense. Keep up the good work, maybe you will get more traffic to DtD with this wishy-washy BS. ... you guys publish lies with your fantasy stuff for no reason? Did you read the article? Did the article expose Bollyn as an anti-Semitic nut? No, it used Bollyn to build on the BS you guys foment, the inside job BS, and CD lies.

Talboo or whatever his name is, published that trash on DtD, and it actually is a step up from the normal dumbed down tripe and BS based on ignorance of the rest of the content at DtD; which seems to be an attempt at making money by kids form advertisements, aimed at dumbed down conspiracy theorist, idiot neoNAZIs, and other people who can't, or who refuse to thing for themselves. Too bad the 19 terrorist are dead, they would be laughing at you guys for the dumbed down level of BS and nonsense you guys publish as if you were scientists, engineers, and experts - Do you guys make any money off the ads?

You post BS at DtD, and now we see DtD support the BS of an inside job based on rants by nuts, where 911 was most likely done by some super secret cabal which might of used the Mossad as puppets, or other paranoid insane nonsense. I had to back up that page, it captures the truth intellectual level of DtD web site.

You post at DtD, and the article is posted, and must mean reflects your ideas, and Talboo's ideas; all based on BS.


Why can't you post your probable cause for WTC 7? How does your theory work with Flight 77, and Flight 93? Was thermite planted in the Pentagon? At the Capital building?

You post at DtD, and you share the stage with claims almost as nutty as your claims, which you can't support or post in detail;

What did it in your theory? Details please. Based on what you guys have at DtD, I doubt a serious effort from people making money off internet ads, or are you just a strap-hanger. You can't risk presenting the evidence free CD fantasy; is that why you only bash NIST.

 

[LSSBB]

You are just repeating non-sense because you got nothing to say but BS. I repeated my request to you guys yesterday to include the column:



Floor beam expansion at 400C = roughly 3 inches
column displacement is due to girder expansion = roughly 2 inches, but would be split between two columns, so roughly 1 inch.

NIST walk off story needs 6.25 inches according NIST with the stiffener plates excluded.

Anyone want to do the math?

Still can't say where all the moving pieces are, yet you insist on a precise number they had to be in relation to each other?

You. Have. No. Case.

 

[NoahFence]

9 posts from the resident MM stand-in since DGM asked for clarification on the NIST code-change recomedations and no comment on what's wrong with it yet?



Didn't see that coming.

Here it is if you missed it:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10516732&postcount=4303

 

[WilliamSeger]

Floor beam expansion at 400C = roughly 3 inches
column displacement is due to girder expansion = roughly 2 inches, but would be split between two columns, so roughly 1 inch.

NIST walk off story needs 6.25 inches according NIST with the stiffener plates excluded.

Anyone want to do the math?

No, it wouldn't be split between the two columns if column 76 was still braced on its west side but column 79 was free to move east. And I seem to have missed the reason why you want to stop at 400C.

 

[LSSBB]

No, it wouldn't be split between the two columns if column 76 was still braced on its west side but column 79 was free to move east. And I seem to have missed the reason why you want to stop at 400C.

He's going off the MSPaintFire results from Christopher7.

I swear, AE911 should take their donations and make their payments in Monopoly money. They are the child's play version of real science and engineering.