Merged Scientology in decline\High noon...

[Axiom_Blade]

For the record, I think non-members critical of the church are terrible when it comes to persuading anyone favorable toward Scientology. The extremes on both sides are just too . . . extreme. The critics charge forward metaphorically waving their arms going "Run! It's sinister and evil! Fear the threat! It's a cult where everything in it is just a deliberate scheme of brainwashing!" A critic not writing "Scientology" without replacing the S with a dollar sign makes them sound more bitter than sensible, like someone who must write "crapple" instead of "apple" because they hate apples.

I had a Scientology phase where I picked up everything I could find about the cult, because it's just so crazy, paranoid, and even criminal. The impression I got is that the reason why Scientology critics are often so extreme is because they're usually ex-Scientologists. They're unhinged because they were traumatized. Scientology unhinged them. Unfortunately, you're right...it can harm their credibility, especially when the things that they're claiming are so outrageous. For outsiders, it's hard to imagine that something like Scientology exists.

 

[Abooga]

Regarding your plight, let me tell you that I had a friend who once wrote to me asking my opinion about some ridiculous muslim rebuttals of evolution, because she had met some muslim guy and he´d sent her that crap. Well, I did´t pay much attention, told her it was all B.S. but didn´t go into a detailed point by point dissection of the arguments. Next time I wrote to her, she told me that she couldn´t talk to me any more because she was married to a muslim man and so on. That was years ago and I´ve never heard of her again. Completely dissapeared from the face of the earth.

I`ve been kicking myself since. I should have noticed the danger and should have tried to help her understand how wrong those muslim apoligist arguments were... I know perhaps there wasn´t much I could have done, if she loved that guy logic alone wasn´t going to turn her from him, but still.... what a pity.

So if there´s anything you can do, do it before it´s too late and one of your friend joins the cult... that´s my opinion.

 

[hgc]

Regarding your plight, let me tell you that I had a friend who once wrote to me asking my opinion about some ridiculous muslim rebuttals of evolution, because she had met some muslim guy and he´d sent her that crap. Well, I did´t pay much attention, told her it was all B.S. but didn´t go into a detailed point by point dissection of the arguments. Next time I wrote to her, she told me that she couldn´t talk to me any more because she was married to a muslim man and so on. That was years ago and I´ve never heard of her again. Completely dissapeared from the face of the earth.

I`ve been kicking myself since. I should have noticed the danger and should have tried to help her understand how wrong those muslim apoligist arguments were... I know perhaps there wasn´t much I could have done, if she loved that guy logic alone wasn´t going to turn her from him, but still.... what a pity.

So if there´s anything you can do, do it before it´s too late and one of your friend joins the cult... that´s my opinion.

I'm guessing that if she is a person who would get into a situation (marriage and new religion) that would lead her to shun you, then no amount of talking logic would have penetrated.

 

[ComfySlippers]

For those unfamiliar with the whacky, criminal world of Hubbard, Miscavige and $cientology Google for: Tony Ortega Underground Bunker. if you're new to the disturbing, but sometimes hilarious practices of this cult it's a long but interesting insight.
It's updated daily and includes, for example, latest updates on the current court cases against the cult and all kinds of goodies.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

I'm reading it right now. It is a disturbing book.

The war record

 

[MontagK505]

I had a Scientology phase where I picked up everything I could find about the cult, because it's just so crazy, paranoid, and even criminal. The impression I got is that the reason why Scientology critics are often so extreme is because they're usually ex-Scientologists. They're unhinged because they were traumatized. Scientology unhinged them. Unfortunately, you're right...it can harm their credibility, especially when the things that they're claiming are so outrageous. For outsiders, it's hard to imagine that something like Scientology exists.

That was my initial reaction while reading "Going Clear". However, I am reminded of the abuses found in reform schools and orphanages, many that go unreported for decades. They found a reform school in Florida with bodies of inmates buried in the nearby woods. Look at some of the workhouses and orphanages run by the Catholic Church. After razing one of these "Houses of Mercy" in Ireland they discovered several hundred infant skeletons in a large septic tank. So yes, this can go on under the nose of local authorities.

The problem the CoS has right now, is that some of the highest ranking former executives have defected, not to mention their former "Poster Boy" Paul Haggis. These are people who have received the most advanced levels of Scientology's "spiritual technology" and yet they are now liar's frauds, etc. etc.It doesn't fit. The number of high ranking people that have "blown" gives lie to their claim that the "technology" will save human civilization.

 

[arthwollipot]

I had a conversation about this Bikram thing that made me think. I used to do Bikram Yoga some years ago, but quit in the heat of the summer*, and I've hardly been back since. Anyway, a friend of mine was telling about this Bikram-the-rapist business, and thought that I should never go back. Even though the place I go is not owned by him, they presumably pay a franchise fee and patronizing that business is putting money into Bikram's pocket. This friend also made the point that doing Bikram Yoga is "offering moral support to a rapist," which is just the kind of intangible argument that does not usually affect me.

*After a session of Bikram, I can not even wear cotton next to my skin for hours as I am perspiring so much, even after a cold shower. And I can walk around in subfreezing weather in short sleeves for a while too. In any case, on a hot summer day, this effect is just too much.

This is a little off-topic, but Bikram studios are completely independent, and the fees they charge go only to the studio and the instructors and not to Bikram himself. Of course, to become an instructor costs money, and that does go to Bikram.

Bikram is a genuine crazy person, and is this close to being a full on cult leader, but the method works for a lot of people. There's not a lot yet in the way of published scientific work on the benefits, but there's some.

Apologies for the derail.

 

[MontagK505]

This is a little off-topic, but Bikram studios are completely independent, and the fees they charge go only to the studio and the instructors and not to Bikram himself. Of course, to become an instructor costs money, and that does go to Bikram.

Bikram is a genuine crazy person, and is this close to being a full on cult leader, but the method works for a lot of people. There's not a lot yet in the way of published scientific work on the benefits, but there's some.

Apologies for the derail.

It's only a minor derail. And, importantly, it does address the fact that a process can be useful, while the principle it's based on is completely wrong. It's the honey trap that many religious ideology's set.

 

[arthwollipot]

It's only a minor derail. And, importantly, it does address the fact that a process can be useful, while the principle it's based on is completely wrong. It's the honey trap that many religious ideology's set.

It's not even that the principle it's based on is completely wrong. The process and the principle can be absolutely correct, while the founder is crazy.

 

[Axiom_Blade]

I'm guessing that if she is a person who would get into a situation (marriage and new religion) that would lead her to shun you, then no amount of talking logic would have penetrated.

Maybe. Maybe not. If they were easily influenced by Islam at that time, they might have been just as easily influenced by skepticism. In any case, there's no sense in Abooga beating themselves up about it now... but it's a good experience to have had if the opportunity presents itself again.

 

[Tolls]

Look at some of the workhouses and orphanages run by the Catholic Church. After razing one of these "Houses of Mercy" in Ireland they discovered several hundred infant skeletons in a large septic tank. So yes, this can go on under the nose of local authorities.

You clearly missed the corrections that came out pretty quickly after those initial reports.

There were not several hundred bodies in the former septic tank.
The kids that found it in the 70s only ever claimed maybe 20.

No one is sure where the hundreds who died in the home were buried, but the tank does not appear to have been more than a convenient place for a few.

Of course, that's not to say that the conditions there weren't scandalous, hence the investigation, but there's no need to overegg it.

 

[MontagK505]

You clearly missed the corrections that came out pretty quickly after those initial reports.

There were not several hundred bodies in the former septic tank.
The kids that found it in the 70s only ever claimed maybe 20.

No one is sure where the hundreds who died in the home were buried, but the tank does not appear to have been more than a convenient place for a few.

Of course, that's not to say that the conditions there weren't scandalous, hence the investigation, but there's no need to overegg it.

Thanks for the correction.
The main point to keep in mind is that institutional abuse can go on for years without anyone outside the group being aware. That's why I find the conditions described by some Scientology defectors believable. (No, I don't think the Co$ has bodies buried anywhere. )
One point that Paul Haggis made is that the CoS has publicly denied the policy of "disconnection" and anyone who is involved with the church in any depth knows that this is a lie. If they lie about this, what else do they lie about?

 

[hgc]

fredcarr? Still out there? Still a member in good standing?

 

[dudalb]

The war record

What is amazing is the COS continues to insist that L Ron was a war hero, when the US Navy records say otherwise.
The Highlights of his career are sinking a non existent Japanese Submarine and Bombarading a Unihabited Island off the coast of Mexico. It's lucky that Navy never let him get anywhere near an actual war zone.

 

[MontagK505]

What is amazing is the COS continues to insist that L Ron was a war hero, when the US Navy records say otherwise.
The Highlights of his career are sinking a non existent Japanese Submarine and Bombarading a Unihabited Island off the coast of Mexico. It's lucky that Navy never let him get anywhere near an actual war zone.

Many of the medals that the Co$ thinks Hubbard won, didn't even exist when he was discharged. And some of them never existed.

BTW I try to use Co$ instead of CoS so people don't confuse the Church of Scientology with the Church of Satan. (The Church of Satan seems to be a more honest organization)

 

[AdMan]

BTW I try to use Co$ instead of CoS so people don't confuse the Church of Scientology with the Church of Satan. (The Church of Satan seems to be a more honest organization)

I think you're absolutely right.

And yes, Hubbard lied about his war record, and the Co$ has been supporting his lies.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

What is amazing is the COS continues to insist that L Ron was a war hero, when the US Navy records say otherwise.
The Highlights of his career are sinking a non existent Japanese Submarine and Bombarading a Unihabited Island off the coast of Mexico. It's lucky that Navy never let him get anywhere near an actual war zone.

Brave deeds without a shadow of a doubt, but the bravest, surely, was to pick up an unexploded enemy shell from the deck of his ship and to throw it overboard only to have it explode in mid-air and inflict severe stomach ulcers on our hero.

 

[MontagK505]

What is amazing is the COS continues to insist that L Ron was a war hero, when the US Navy records say otherwise.
The Highlights of his career are sinking a non existent Japanese Submarine and Bombarading a Unihabited Island off the coast of Mexico. It's lucky that Navy never let him get anywhere near an actual war zone.

According to "Going Clear" (the book) the Co$ claims that there were two sets of records for Hubbard because of L Ronny's involvement with secret intelligence operations with Robert Heinlein penetrating Russian spy rings. and the records that the Co$ has are the "real" ones. The ones that Lawrence Wrights fact checkers got from St. Louis have been altered to hide L Ron's majestic heroism.

Lawrence stated that he has contacted people who are working on Heinlein's biography and they have found nothing that would remotely support any of this. And it get's deeper and deeper and deeper.

 

[dudalb]

According to "Going Clear" (the book) the Co$ claims that there were two sets of records for Hubbard because of L Ronny's involvement with secret intelligence operations with Robert Heinlein penetrating Russian spy rings. and the records that the Co$ has are the "real" ones. The ones that Lawrence Wrights fact checkers got from St. Louis have been altered to hide L Ron's majestic heroism.

Lawrence stated that he has contacted people who are working on Heinlein's biography and they have found nothing that would remotely support any of this. And it get's deeper and deeper and deeper.

Heinlein was a friend of Hubbard, but when some of Heinlein's navy friends clued him in about Hubbard's phony war record and his faking of injuries, the friendship ceased.
A couple of Heinlein's later novels have mentions of Scientology,all of them unfavorable.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

Just read about the cruel punishments that LRH meted out to the original Sea Org - what an absolutely monstrous individual.