Merged Scientology in decline\High noon...

He just posted this link on his facebook page..

http://www.freedommag.org/hbo/

His comment was Yes!!

I finally broached the subject and said I was looking forward to the documentary.
 
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Just show your friend Hubbard's "revelation".

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https://books.google.com/books?id=1...95,000,000 yrs ago, very space opera)&f=false

(That's a good book, by the way).
 
He just posted this link on his facebook page..

http://www.freedommag.org/hbo/

His comment was Yes!!

I finally broached the subject and said I was looking forward to the documentary.

It's nice that your friend enjoys and believes in children's stories.
Which is what Scientology is, a poorly written fairy tale penned by a drug abusing conman.

Slap your friend in the face with a moist kipper.
 
HBO's upcoming "Going Clear" ,a documentary based on Laurence Wright's bestselling book on the COS, is another sign of the church's declining power and clout.
The film,which Wright wrote and produced, was shown at Sundance and pulls no punches. From the reviews, it's like the book, a devastating look at all the damage that the CO$ has done.
A few years ago, I don't think HBO would have had the guts to do the documentary.

I've just finished the book and it's a devastating indictment of Scientology. The current leader, David Miscavage, comes across as a total sociopath, unlike Hubbard himself who seemed more of an unscrupulous rogue who couldn't belies his luck in getting his nonsense off the ground.

Looking forward to the HBO movie.
 
But I assure you, like other magic tricks, or just tricks, Scientology DOES seem effective when you first get into it, and that apparent effectiveness is the reason people accept more outrageous claims (It seems to work, Hubbard must know what he's doing), and critics must understand and respect that it seems to work and explain why it seems to work or make sense to be convincing to those who start believing.

Of course it works, and it's easy to see why.

But people ridicule it because ridicule also works, for precisely the same reasons. Really. It actually does, in the same way that rational discussion doesn't.

I'm often frustrated that there is so little reason in skepticism, because I enjoy reason and would like to have more of the stuff I enjoy. But it doesn't persuade anybody of anything.
 
But people ridicule it because ridicule also works, for precisely the same reasons. Really. It actually does,
Not or me.
in the same way that rational discussion doesn't.

I'm often frustrated that there is so little reason in skepticism, because I enjoy reason and would like to have more of the stuff I enjoy. But it doesn't persuade anybody of anything.

So you're saying people never reason themselves out of their religious beliefs?

Perhaps neither reason nor ridicule work, at least not alone; and it all relies on the reason or ridicule connecting to someone's personal experiences. Personal experiences must first involve something negative, and reason/ridicule can capitalize on that. But neither will work if the person has no negative experiences to connect the reason/ridicule to.
 
It's kind of sad that Scientology has to deal with "bitter, vengeful apostates" who have been expelled from the Church. If only there were some way to reach people and cure them of such extreme negativity. If only there were some tech available to address human failings and elevate us above such pettiness.
 
Scientology is done though it will be awhile until they disappear completely as they have large cash reserves.

Their money comes from a few big donors that have been in the church a long time. Anyone with access to Google steers clear of them. Their churches are empty and the media is no longer scared of them.

Several months ago I read an article that analyzed their business model. Most of their cash reserves are kept in off-shore accounts (~$1billon) they own ~$500million in real estate in the US. The main thrust was that if the IRS pulled their tax exempt status the Co$ would take a serious financial blow. Any transfer of off-shore funds and the IRS would be grabbing big chunks of it. I imagine they would have to unload most of their real estate and move their main operations out of the country. The Europeans have made them very unwelcome, so that could be a problem as well. Somalia might be a good place for them. :D
 
I went to a very interesting and entertaining talk on $cientology at Nottingham Skeptics in the Pub last night*. I couldn't remember much recent conversation on here regarding the "church," and so I did a search on the tags and there's only one thread in the last six months.

Does that reflect a reduction in the threat, or indicate that FredCarr's book and DVD business was a success and all those with doubts have signed up or is the lack of new, nuttier revelations detract from the topic?





*
Create Your Own Cult, the Scientology Way by Martin Poulter
There was an article in the Tampabay Times (a source of many articles on Scientology) this week on that subject.

The gist was that Scientology is running out of private investigators to go after all the members who leave or the reporters who investigate.

They are now happy to just scam those who want to be separated from their money.
 
There was an article in the Tampabay Times (a source of many articles on Scientology) this week on that subject.

The gist was that Scientology is running out of private investigators to go after all the members who leave or the reporters who investigate.

They are now happy to just scam those who want to be separated from their money.

I doubt they are happy. I suspect it's more of a PR move on Scientology's part simply because it brings more negative attention to their practices. I just finished Lawrence Wrights Book "Going Clear" and I had trouble putting the book down. I saw an interview with Lawrence Wright and Alex Gibney and they stated they have had far less harassment than former defectors and reporters who have written negative stories in the past.
The church has had serious blows to their credibility in the past and this up-coming documentary by Gibney won't help a bit. My understanding is the BBC is planing a documentary as well. Their poster boy, Tom Cruise, is not a very convincing spokesman for the cause.
 
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I briefly caught a commercial for $cientology on TV last night. The channel or network did not register but the gist of the ad was that "science + technology" = Scientology. Assuming I saw the whole thing, it was about 15 seconds long and cost about $10 to produce. :hit:

"How the Mighty have Fallen."
 
I suspect it's more of a PR move on Scientology's part simply because it brings more negative attention to their practices.

The internet is their single biggest enemy. Back in the '70s and '80s they could harrass former members with near impunity. Who would find out besides your family and close friends. Today, anyone can set up a blog or go to discussion boards and tell the world how the Co$ has mistreated them.

Steve S
 
The internet is their single biggest enemy. Back in the '70s and '80s they could harrass former members with near impunity. Who would find out besides your family and close friends. Today, anyone can set up a blog or go to discussion boards and tell the world how the Co$ has mistreated them.

Steve S

I agree. Videos of people wearing "Squirrel Busters" caps, who are apparently Scientology goon squads, harassing Marty Rathbun and his wife, don't help the image of the Co$ one bit.
 
But the CO$ still has it's useful idiots:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000129/board/?ref_=nm_bd_sm

What is bad about the Tom Cruise fanboys is that their ignorance about the CO$ is willful;they don't know because they don't want to know. And I am so tired of the "CO$ is no worse then any other religion" B.S. It's not about the COS's crazy beliefs but about the way they abuse their power.
 
For the record, I think non-members critical of the church are terrible when it comes to persuading anyone favorable toward Scientology. The extremes on both sides are just too . . . extreme. The critics charge forward metaphorically waving their arms going "Run! It's sinister and evil! Fear the threat! It's a cult where everything in it is just a deliberate scheme of brainwashing!" A critic not writing "Scientology" without replacing the S with a dollar sign makes them sound more bitter than sensible, like someone who must write "crapple" instead of "apple" because they hate apples. They come forward talking only about the most ridiculous aspects of the religion rather than the courses that make up most of a Scientologist's experience, talking endlessly about Hubbard and scandals of the church rather than how pseudoscientific auditing or the content of its courses are. It just. doesn't. come off. as level-headed. It's like the difference between a Libertarian using reasoned arguments to describe how government and various regulations are flawed and an anti-government ranter talking about how the government and various regulations are evil. The inability to refer to Scientology in a neutral way sometimes comes off the same

I'm saying this as someone who grew up in Scientology, is critical of Scientology most of the time and no longer counts himself as a Scientologist. Maybe it's just me but the extreme of negativity critics *need* to describe Scientology with comes off to me the same way as Scientology's need to make Psychiatry as evil as possible; it can't just be wrong and pseudoscientific, etc. It has to be actively evil and menacing and out to get you. It can't just be full of unsubstantiated non-science that can seem effective or legitimate at first like any alternative medicine or pseudo-therapy, but than falls apart on closer inspection, no it has to be so oooobviously retarded that it's genuinely insulting to anybody who might be considering it or taken in, because they must be so duuumb and laughably stupid to be taken in by something sooooo oooobviously outrageous.

But I assure you, like other magic tricks, or just tricks, Scientology DOES seem effective when you first get into it, and that apparent effectiveness is the reason people accept more outrageous claims (It seems to work, Hubbard must know what he's doing), and critics must understand and respect that it seems to work and explain why it seems to work or make sense to be convincing to those who start believing. You don't debunk alternative medicine without explaining the placebo effect, you don't debunk psychics or astrology without explaining the Forer effect, but I get the impression skeptics think they can debunk Scientology by explaining nothing about why people feel it works for them.

Even as an ex-Scientologist, I still find most criticism of Scientology totally unconvincing. It must be convincing to some people, otherwise it wouldn't be made, but I just don't see it. At all.

You are, I trust, aware it was completely made up in the mind of a life-long con man and perpetual liar. If you know that much, why would anything else about it matter???
 
Co-incidentally I heard an interview with a practitioner (and salon owner) in/of Bikram Yoga. Bikram Yoga is currently in the news because its founder Bikram Choudhury is being accused sexual assault by a number of (ex-)acolytes. The person being interviewed said that she had studied under Choudhury, always had her suspicions about him and tended to believe that the accusations were true. However, she was continuing to believe in, practice, and teach the truths of the Bikram system.

Aha, I thought, Scientology -- L Ron Hubbard -- Freezoners (vide: Free_Zone_(Scientology)WP). As with many cults. :rolleyes:

This I call the "There must a pony in here somewhere" syndrome"*. ;)

==========
* But most of the time it really is just a pile of manure. :w2:
 
Co-incidentally I heard an interview with a practitioner (and salon owner) in/of Bikram Yoga. Bikram Yoga is currently in the news because its founder Bikram Choudhury is being accused sexual assault by a number of (ex-)acolytes. The person being interviewed said that she had studied under Choudhury, always had her suspicions about him and tended to believe that the accusations were true. However, she was continuing to believe in, practice, and teach the truths of the Bikram system.

Aha, I thought, Scientology -- L Ron Hubbard -- Freezoners (vide: Free_Zone_(Scientology)WP). As with many cults. :rolleyes:

This I call the "There must a pony in here somewhere" syndrome"*. ;)

==========
* But most of the time it really is just a pile of manure. :w2:


I had a conversation about this Bikram thing that made me think. I used to do Bikram Yoga some years ago, but quit in the heat of the summer*, and I've hardly been back since. Anyway, a friend of mine was telling about this Bikram-the-rapist business, and thought that I should never go back. Even though the place I go is not owned by him, they presumably pay a franchise fee and patronizing that business is putting money into Bikram's pocket. This friend also made the point that doing Bikram Yoga is "offering moral support to a rapist," which is just the kind of intangible argument that does not usually affect me.

*After a session of Bikram, I can not even wear cotton next to my skin for hours as I am perspiring so much, even after a cold shower. And I can walk around in subfreezing weather in short sleeves for a while too. In any case, on a hot summer day, this effect is just too much.
 
You are, I trust, aware it was completely made up in the mind of a life-long con man and perpetual liar. If you know that much, why would anything else about it matter???

I think what you overlook is that many people have taken their entry level course work and have derived positive benefit from it. Lawrence Wright makes this point in his book. That's what can make it so seductive. L Ron Hubbard was a genus in some ways, but you are right, he was con-man and a liar.
 
I doubt they are happy. I suspect it's more of a PR move on Scientology's part simply because it brings more negative attention to their practices. I just finished Lawrence Wrights Book "Going Clear" and I had trouble putting the book down. I saw an interview with Lawrence Wright and Alex Gibney and they stated they have had far less harassment than former defectors and reporters who have written negative stories in the past.
The church has had serious blows to their credibility in the past and this up-coming documentary by Gibney won't help a bit. My understanding is the BBC is planing a documentary as well. Their poster boy, Tom Cruise, is not a very convincing spokesman for the cause.

I'm reading it right now. It is a disturbing book.
 

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