Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Machiavelli said:
Anyway like it ir not that part of the treaty doesn't exist anymore, since the law enforcing it was cancelled. It's up to the US now to decide if they want to dance the rest of the treaty.
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Oh, I like it. It's good to be in the driver's seat.

But, how does it work? Is it unconstitutional for Italy to extradite someone to a nation that has the DP? What if there is a state within the nation that doesn't have the DP, but other places do? Could Italy extradite someone to a DP nation, if the person is charged with a non-capital crime?

Aren't the Italian marines charged with a capital crime in India? Did Italy let India know that it might be illegal for Italy to send the marines back to India if they came back to Italy?
 
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Machiavelli said:
Masonry and Catholic Church, with its connected parallel associations, are the institutions most involved in covering ups, and they are dominating actors in Italian life.
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Its always fascinating to hear you expound on these subjects. The descriptions as "dominating actors in Italian life", is worth reading slowly, and makes me think Italy may be simply inscrutable to the outside observer. Science however, is still science, everywhere and in Italy, we should at least agree on that.

Mach, here's a few questions i was hoping you could get to. Especially on the issue of aggravated Calunnia, and how nencini gets to rule on a question, I thought had been decided by cassation when it reversed Hellman. Also possible outcomes for March 25 with cassation, at the end -


Originally Posted by Machiavelli
The fact is it tudner out Stefanoni was right, because when the Carabinieri RIS analyzed Pascali's items again they found multiple traces of suspect Danilo Restivo.

CJ72: Couple questions Mach;
When the Carabinieri RIS completed their analysis, did they provide all the underlying electronic data files to the defense? It would be interesting to compare their sense of fair disclosure with Stefanoni's in with-holding copies of the EDF's and other lab notes from the defense for Amanda and Raf. In other words, did they just give the defense full electronic copies for them to inspect at their leisure, without preconditions or limitations of any kind?

Second question - Cassation confirmed Hellman's conviction of Amanda for calunnia? Isn't a cassation ruling final, and not appealable by the parties (other than to the Italian constitutional court, or to the ECHR)?

If so, then how did Nencini get to decide to increase the sentence for aggravated calunnia? Was this a further charge? How did this charge get brought into the Nencini appeal, if cassation had already finalized it in reversing Hellman?

And, could Nencini convict Amanda on the aggravated Calunnia portion, and sentence her to "time served" since she was in jail for 4 years already. And then send the rest of the case back for re-trial, (or dismissal - can cassation dismiss the case for lack of evidence, in theory)?
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carbonjam72 said:
Is this a reference to Satan, prince of darkness? Opposite of the Pope, prince of the church? Am I mixing up my superstitions?
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It's the ominous nickname for the headman of the Jesuits, reputed to have engineered many a cover-up and conspiracy over the centuries.
 
Machiavelli said:
I really don't think you have a case of Italy lying to India.
You would have a case about the US lying about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, or about the circumstances of Calipari's death, or about the American pilots destroying the video tape of the Cermis disaster. As for things done in contempt of law and hunan rights you may criticize things like Guantanamo or the extraordinary renditions, or the US politics in South America to say some. You don't seem interested in those cases but doesn't matter.
I don't think the Italian government lied to the US Senate, because it was true Italy had a law to enforce that part of the treaty. But I do think the Italian legislators and government were wrong when they enacted the law itself, they should have thought better about it since the art 698 par.2 was unconstitutional.
Anyway like it ir not that part of the treaty doesn't exist anymore, since the law enforcing it was cancelled. It's up to the US now to decide if they want to dance the rest of the treaty.
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I would argue that a strong case could be made that Bush really believed that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. People often see what they think they believe like you believing Amanda and Raff are guilty no matter what the evidence supports.
 
About that light switch...

Dan O. said:
In an appartment occupied by humans, it whould be expected to find human DNA on various objects that those humans touched regularly, even where there is no blood. We make this claim about the bathroom sink and other objects upstairs. We should be consistent with the objects downstairs.

The blood and the DNA may not be related. On the light switch for instance, there would be expected DNA from the boys living there and if Meredith were tending the injured cat as she was asked she could have transferred blood from the cat to the switch.
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Hi Dan O.
Thanks for keeping an open mind as some of us try to discuss the meaning of the downstairs crime scene.

Heck,
most folks who live in houses have a garage, right?
Some garages are even in the basement below the house,
I lived in 1 before, cool place.

Say that after parking and exiting your car, your notice that your garage or basement had blood stains in it, and some of the items inside were strewn about, not like you left them before when you left and then came back home.

You walk on the steps to the house, notice small bloods drops every few steps.
Open your door, and needing to use a restroom, notice feces in 1, blood in the other. Do a cursory look in the bedrooms and find a broken window too, with clothes strewn about.

Wouldn't most think that the garage,
(err visualize the boyz downstairs flat),
was part of the crime scene that happened at your home when someone broke in to your place of residence while you were gone?

* * *

Your highlighted query in your post above makes sense,
but the facts appear to be different:
•Item No. 28 is a lightswitch on the wall of the downstairs apartment. The lightswitch samples are the only blood samples from inside of the downstairs apartment that are not identified as cat’s blood.
Link,
courtesy of Magister:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/blood-evidence-downstairs-apartment/


ETA:
Why don't we know if this blood, not belonging to a cat, is from Rudy Guede, Meredith, Amanda, Raffaele or someone else, maybe unknown?Rudy is said to have told police that he cut his hand that night.
picture.php

Odd that Amanda nor Raffaele did not have any cuts on themselves...
 
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js202 said:
It's the ominous nickname for the headman of the Jesuits, reputed to have engineered many a cover-up and conspiracy over the centuries.
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Is there any relationship with the masons? The knights of Templar? The Order of the Red Rose? or Gabriella Carlizzi?

And am I wrong, but I thought the 'jesuits' were an order under the pope, like the franciscans? I really don't know my catholicism, I admit.

Catholics, protestants, lutherans, baptists, southern baptists, Pentecostals, franciscans, jesuits... who can keep track of all this?

Didn't Amanda go to a 'jesuit' high school in Seattle?

But i can see where Dan Brown just has a field day with all this stuff.
 
Bill Williams said:
The difference in Italy seems to be that prosecutors get to allege things without evidence. Then the judge seems to get to turn to the defense and instruct them to prove the prosecution wrong.

Like Machiavelli's claim that Stefanoni has a Ph.D. He asserts it, yet provides no proof and challenges US to prove him wrong.
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But I also cited news sources reporting she worked 8 years as a "researcher" at the University Federico II of Naples, and I explained how it works in Italy.
And also, I am not the person who brought up Stefanoni's academic qualifications as an argument: that one is an argument brought by the Knox supporters, and because they brought it up, they have a burden to prove it.

Or Stefanoni's letter about the requirement that she turn over the EDFs. All she has to do is say, "Are they calling me a liar!?" and the court caves in. You wouldn't want to call her a liar.... even if she is one!
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Actually she also said she was ready to provide the EDFs, if examined under controlled conditions. The defence did not pursue that opportunity, and Kaosium explained why: because Pascali (but I read "Hampikian") wanted the EDFs in order to use them in other venues and to change the settings, so to produce new files not deposited with the trial papers.
Thus, this is the reason why the defence turned down Stefanoni's offer, according to Kaosium. This seems the real reason, the one you should focus on if you want to understand the case.
 
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Machiavelli said:
I really don't think you have a case of Italy lying to India.
You would have a case about the US lying about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, or about the circumstances of Calipari's death, or about the American pilots destroying the video tape of the Cermis disaster. As for things done in contempt of law and hunan rights you may criticize things like Guantanamo or the extraordinary renditions, or the US politics in South America to say some. You don't seem interested in those cases but doesn't matter.
I don't think the Italian government lied to the US Senate, because it was true Italy had a law to enforce that part of the treaty. But I do think the Italian legislators and government were wrong when they enacted the law itself, they should have thought better about it since the art 698 par.2 was unconstitutional.
Anyway like it ir not that part of the treaty doesn't exist anymore, since the law enforcing it was cancelled. It's up to the US now to decide if they want to dance the rest of the treaty.
Click to expand...
It's really about what is most useful for the common man. Mobs shoes and opera are good to have, but so are light bulbs railways safe airplanes computers and the internet.
Also a rational justice system that admits and corrects mistakes eventually, how long do you reckon for this one Mach? Galileo just took a few centuries.
 
The following post refer: #1871, #1877 and #1881.

Wow, anyone would think I was the one the raised the case of Russ Faria, maybe you should direct your comments to the original posts?
 
Numbers said:
Wikipedia (in an article with a caution that it lacks citations) has this on Silvia Baraldini, which includes stating that she was transferred to Italy {highlighting added}:
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As I said, this happened only in 1999. Shortly after the Cermis incident and its trial.
 
Specialized facilities for true LCN work

Machiavelli said:
I'm not sure something like an "LCN lab" exists...
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The Forensic Science Service listed some of their precautions, as reported by Mark Waterbury: "The FSS LCN test requires an ultra-clean laboratory and so is more expensive and less widely offered than the standard test.... The site of this bespoke laboratory is remote from other DNA Units, operates stringent entry requirements, is fitted with positive air pressure and specialist lighting and chemical treatments to minimize DNA contamination.”

The New Zealand Herald had an article called "making the invisible visible." It read in part: "The bogey is contamination. The very sensitivity of the technique which enables it to extract a DNA profile from the tiniest sample also makes it extremely vulnerable to contamination. Stringent measures are needed to minimise that risk. The ESR has spent $1 million building special anti-contamination areas at its premises in Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch. Protocols are being developed for crime scenes where the LCN technique is used and for the handling of samples from collection through to courtroom. LCN crime scenes will be divided into cold, warm and hot zones hot being the crime zone. Clothes are put on and discarded at each zone to minimise the risk of contamination." (paragraph separations removed)

How does this new information change your opinion?
 
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Machiavelli said:
Can you also show us police pictures of Knox's hands and fingers?
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Hi Machiavelli,
I'll see what I can find for ya, ok?
But why don't you wanna see if Raffaele had any cuts on him?

Oh wait a sec,
why should I even bother looking?
Amanda, + [SIZE="-7"]Raffaele[/SIZE] were questioned that very same day that Meredith was found.
Amanda, + [SIZE="-7"]Raffaele[/SIZE], were arrested and then strip searched a coupla days later.
Surely the fine local ILE would have released any photographs showing cuts on Amanda's, + [SIZE="-7"]Raffaele's[/SIZE] hands, right?
 
Desert Fox said:
I would argue that a strong case could be made that Bush really believed that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. People often see what they think they believe like you believing Amanda and Raff are guilty no matter what the evidence supports.
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Maybe he believed so, but the evidence he presented to the UN Security Council was manufactured.
 
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