Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Yes! That was the recording case that I mentioned. Nice work.

Previously, I was aware of Natunen v Finland 21022/04 31/03/2009

There, ECHR points out that it is a violation of Article 6 for the prosecution to pick out what evidence the defense may have or not have. That case also involved telephone intercepts. Excerpts:

47. Even though the police and the prosecutor were obliged by law to take into consideration both the facts for and against the suspect, a procedure whereby the investigating authority itself, even when co-operating with the prosecution, attempts to assess what may or may not be relevant to the case, cannot comply with the requirements of Article 6 § 1. Moreover, it is not clear to what extent the prosecutor was, in fact, involved in the decision to destroy those recordings which were not included in the case file. In this case, the destruction of certain material obtained through telephone surveillance made it impossible for the defence to verify its assumptions as to its relevance and to prove their correctness before the trial courts.

48. The Court finds that the present case is different from, inter alia, Fitt v. the United Kingdom [GC] (no. 29777/96, ECHR 2000‑II) and Jasper v. the United Kingdom [GC] (no. 27052/95, 16 February 2000) where the Court was satisfied that the defence were kept informed and were permitted to make submissions and participate in the decision-making process as far as possible and noted that the need for disclosure was at all times under the assessment of the trial judge, providing a further, important, safeguard. In those cases the Court found no violation under Article 6 § 1 (see Fitt, §§ 48-49, and Jasper, §§ 55-56). The Court recalls that, in this case, the decision regarding the undisclosed evidence was, presumably, made in the course of the pre-trial investigation without providing the defence with the opportunity to participate in the decision-making process.

49. In the present case the Court further notes that the contested measure stemmed from a defect in the legislation, in that it failed to offer adequate protection to the defence, rather than any misconduct of the authorities, who were obliged by law, in force at the time, to destroy the impugned recordings (see paragraph 21 above). The Court observes that in the Government Bill for the amendment of the Coercive Measures Act it was considered problematic that information supporting the innocence of the suspect could be destroyed before the resolution of the case (see paragraph 22 above). The relevant provision was amended with effect from 1 January 2004 with a view to better safeguarding the rights of the defence. This amendment, however, came too late for the applicant.

50. Having regard to the above considerations, the Court concludes that there has been a violation of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention taken together with Article 6 § 3 (b) of the Convention.
 
All of this is just what it is. There is a possible simple innocent solution. And if you twist hard enough you can turn it into anything you want. I'll stick to the innocent solution until something comes along and forces a reevaluation.

But the innocent explanation doesn't pass the straight-face test.

And, if "cat's blood" is a lie, then we've captured the unicorn: a real-honest-to-God malicious conspiracy among the cops, Mignini and Stefanoni. Just think about Stefanoni's perjury on this issue.
 
reliability of the DNA profile

The fact is it tudner out Stefanoni was right, because when the Carabinieri RIS analyzed Pascali's items again they found multiple traces of suspect Danilo Restivo.
Machiavelli,

What you wrote is utter nonsense. The issue is not whether or not you find a profile. The issue is whether or not the profile is meaningful.
 
Well, as I remember, she said :

"My people killed your people"

to a Jewish fellow employee. That is cruel at the very least.


Greetings

Could just be a naive statement young kid to kid to break the ice by saying something somewhat risque, without having the same significance it might from an old line anti-semite.

The ability of people to imagine hateful characteristics in Amanda and Raf is one of the more concerning aspects of the matter.

How much are people's ability to color any perception of Amanda and Raf, susceptible to reflect the perspective of Mignini, and his delirious quest for halloween witches and satanic rites.
 
But the innocent explanation doesn't pass the straight-face test.

And, if "cat's blood" is a lie, then we've captured the unicorn: a real-honest-to-God malicious conspiracy among the cops, Mignini and Stefanoni. Just think about Stefanoni's perjury on this issue.

What perjury is it you're referring to, she had quite a busy schedule.

Beyond suppressing the downstairs DNA profiles, was there anything else she did that related to the downstairs? (downstairs crime scene, I agree).

Did she ever provide a species specific test to show the blood was "cat's blood"? Was Stef ever asked at trial how she concluded the blood was from a cat, when she had human DNA profiles come back?

Is this what you mean by her perjury about the downstairs apartment?
 
Where were the keys found on the 6th - four days after the police discovered the crime?

Just asking!


What we know is that they were in the entry hall hanging on the wall. We don't have good photos of that wall but we can see there is a phone there and something else that might be a note board. This note board may include an open key rack where the keys would be dangling in open sight. Or it could have a door that has to be opened to reveal the keys. Nobody thought to take any photos of that entryway.
 
Some of the outside and/or downstairs blood stains were tested for DNA by Stefanoni and replicated under primate (human)-specific PCR replication. That means human DNA was present (unless there was a chimpanzee, bonobo, etc. living in the neighborhood - super unlikely, the Italian LE would have mentioned that). There was blood on the light switch. Guede had cuts on his hand; there is evidence in a German police photo, and he created a story about Nov. 1 where he had been cut on the hand.

If that DNA belonged to Guede and/or Meredith, there is a more complex story than the police and prosecution invented, and it is exculpatory for Amanda and Raffaele. Entry into the downstairs apartment by a burglar is not consistent with the theory of the crime invented by the Italian authorities. And inferences can be made from the suppression of data by the police and prosecution in this case.


In an appartment occupied by humans, it whould be expected to find human DNA on various objects that those humans touched regularly, even where there is no blood. We make this claim about the bathroom sink and other objects upstairs. We should be consistent with the objects downstairs.

The blood and the DNA may not be related. On the light switch for instance, there would be expected DNA from the boys living there and if Meredith were tending the injured cat as she was asked she could have transferred blood from the cat to the switch.
 
What we know is that they were in the entry hall hanging on the wall. We don't have good photos of that wall but we can see there is a phone there and something else that might be a note board. This note board may include an open key rack where the keys would be dangling in open sight. Or it could have a door that has to be opened to reveal the keys. Nobody thought to take any photos of that entryway.

Well, we suspect that but don't really know it. I think that the police report that I recently linked to claims that the keys were found in Amanda's room. That's obviously bull. There is a photo of the entry, that appears to show some keys, but who knows what they were.

The curious thing is that these keys were dropped and never became a part of the case.
 
In an appartment occupied by humans, it whould be expected to find human DNA on various objects that those humans touched regularly, even where there is no blood. We make this claim about the bathroom sink and other objects upstairs. We should be consistent with the objects downstairs.

The blood and the DNA may not be related. On the light switch for instance, there would be expected DNA from the boys living there and if Meredith were tending the injured cat as she was asked she could have transferred blood from the cat to the switch.

Is there any actual proof of cat's blood at all? Apart from Stefanoni verbally claiming the blood drops leading downstairs, and in the downstairs apartment are 'cat's blood', IIUC, no species specific test was ever performed on the samples?

Is that right?
 
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No thank you, I like it here quite fine, but as far as what Mach said, I wasn't wondering about the people in the house. I was wondering about the neighbors. Are they that far away that no one would hear a window breaking late at night?

d

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The neighbors of the cottage are far enough away that it cannot be assured that someone would hear the breaking window. But they are close enough that it cannot be assured that they would not hear it. Someone outside on the upper deck of the car park would probably hear it as would someone walking by on the street.

On the other hand, the window above the small court yard at the lawyers office would probably be heard by the neighbors across the court yard like Sophie Puton if the rock had been thrown through the window instead of being muffled by a jacket to break the glass.
 
What we know is that they were in the entry hall hanging on the wall. We don't have good photos of that wall but we can see there is a phone there and something else that might be a note board. This note board may include an open key rack where the keys would be dangling in open sight. Or it could have a door that has to be opened to reveal the keys. Nobody thought to take any photos of that entryway.

Just to clarify...
Are you saying that Giacomo's keys, which he had lent to Meredith, were found 4 days later on the 6th hanging on the wall in the entry hall?

And yet the police said they were found in Amanda's room.....impossible to believe.
 
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In an appartment occupied by humans, it whould be expected to find human DNA on various objects that those humans touched regularly, even where there is no blood. We make this claim about the bathroom sink and other objects upstairs. We should be consistent with the objects downstairs.

The blood and the DNA may not be related. On the light switch for instance, there would be expected DNA from the boys living there and if Meredith were tending the injured cat as she was asked she could have transferred blood from the cat to the switch.

What if the blood on the light switch were Guede's?

Since all these profiles were suppressed, we don't know whose DNA was present.

If the profiles weren't relevant, why were they suppressed?
Natunen v Finland: ECHR states that the prosecution does not get to pick and choose what evidence the defense gets. Show the defense the evidence, let the defense decide whether or not it is useful.
 
Is there any actual proof of cat's blood at all? Apart from Stefanoni verbally claiming the blood drops leading downstairs, and in the downstairs apartment are 'cat's blood', IIUC, no species specific test was ever performed on the samples?

Is that right?

There are species specific antigen-antibody tests. AFAIK, there were no details provided by the prosecution of how Stefanoni decided that the species was cat.
 
But the innocent explanation doesn't pass the straight-face test.

And, if "cat's blood" is a lie, then we've captured the unicorn: a real-honest-to-God malicious conspiracy among the cops, Mignini and Stefanoni. Just think about Stefanoni's perjury on this issue.


The first thing you must do if you want to discuss a possible conspiracy is list all the conspirators and their motivation for maintaining the conspiracy for all these years. When I see such a list then we will be able to begin to discuss it.
 
The first thing you must do if you want to discuss a possible conspiracy is list all the conspirators and their motivation for maintaining the conspiracy for all these years. When I see such a list then we will be able to begin to discuss it.

Stefanoni and her assistants are the only ones doing the DNA and other forensic work.

ETA: There are no conspiracies among the police and prosecutors in Italy. It's either: 1) mutual incompetence or 2) just following orders. (In the view of the police and prosecutors). By Italian law, prosecutors direct the police in an investigation.
 
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Stefanoni invented some nonsense about a kitten cutting itself on the broken glass from the front door..
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/blood-evidence-downstairs-apartment/

My recollection is that Stefanoni didn't arrive until Nov. 3 or maybe late on the 2nd. She obviously wasn't there when the cops broke down the door, and there is no way that she saw a cat running onto the glass and then bouncing around the place. This is purely made-up testimony. Someone must have fed this line of bull to her. I just can't believe that she repeated it under oath. It's not even consistent with what the other police officers/roommates said.
 
The fact is it tudner out Stefanoni was right, because when the Carabinieri RIS analyzed Pascali's items again they found multiple traces of suspect Danilo Restivo.

Couple questions Mach;

When the Carabinieri RIS completed their analysis, did they provide all the underlying electronic data files to the defense? It would be interesting to compare their sense of fair disclosure with Stefanoni's in with-holding copies of the EDF's and other lab notes from the defense for Amanda and Raf. In other words, did they just give the defense full electronic copies for them to inspect at their leisure, without preconditions or limitations of any kind?

Second question - Cassation confirmed Hellman's conviction of Amanda for calunnia? Isn't a cassation ruling final, and not appealable by the parties (other than to the Italian constitutional court, or to the ECHR)?

If so, then how did Nencini get to decide to increase the sentence for aggravated calunnia? Was this a further charge? How did this charge get brought into the Nencini appeal, if cassation had already finalized it in reversing Hellman?

And, could Nencini convict Amanda on the aggravated Calunnia portion, and sentence her to "time served" since she was in jail for 4 years already. And then send the rest of the case back for re-trial, (or dismissal - can cassation dismiss the case for lack of evidence, in theory)?
 
Machiavelli,

What you wrote is utter nonsense. The issue is not whether or not you find a profile. The issue is whether or not the profile is meaningful.

It's strange that you don't get it.
Danilo Restivo was convicted on those findings. He was also convicted for a similar murder in the UK. It shows the profile was meaningful. The conviction certain means that the judge found out to be meaningful.

Now, whether or not the profile is meaningful, like for any piece of evidence, is up to the court to decide that.

But if Pascali doesn't extract the profile, then sure the court can't assess whether it is meaningful or not.

The expert's task is to provide the court with information that the court think are useful for the decision, not to decide in their place.
 
Stefanoni and her assistants are the only ones doing the DNA and other forensic work.

ETA: There are no conspiracies among the police and prosecutors in Italy. It's either: 1) mutual incompetence or 2) just following orders. (In the view of the police and prosecutors). By Italian law, prosecutors direct the police in an investigation.


I don't think you can close the conspiracy ring with the DNA lab alone.

Are the boys from downstairs in or out of the conspiracy?. Are they working with Guede so therefore Stefanoni is covering up their own conspiracy?!

And then there is the question: Why?

Does the incompetent lab tech declare that this is cats blood and everybody else says "oh, sorry about breaking down the doors and trashing the place". Or, has Mignini gotten involved and realizes this downstairs scene is incompatible with his theory that the American roommate is responsible for the murder?


My position is that there is no evidence from downstairs that shows Amanda and Raffaele were involved and the evidence of downstairs is not needed to show that they weren't.

I imagine there will be some review of the whole case in the blowback after Amanda and Raffaele are declared innocent. Only then will additional information or proof of a coverup be extracted from the DNA lab.
 
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