Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[AmyStrange]

-

Sorry, but I've got "staged break-in" on the brain.

The thing about this "staged break-in" idea that bothers me, is why in God's name would anyone want to bring attention to a house with a dead body in it by breaking a window after Meredith was already dead?

Rudy might've done it so the cops could maybe come and find Meredith and save her, but that just sounds so implausible, because that would over-complicate something that could be easily accomplished by finding the nearest phone and calling the cops from there.

Of course, he might have done it because he didn't know that Meredith had not told anyone about his date with her, assuming his story is true, and he broke the window to make it look like a burglar did it, but that sounds even more far-fetched, because if he thought people knew about his date, why run then? That makes you look guilty, no matter how nice a spin you put on it.

Or, he might have done it to break into the house.

I can't see Raffaele or Amanda doing it either, because like I originally said, why in God's name would anyone want to bring attention to a house with a dead body in it by breaking a window after Meredith was already dead?

Is it even plausible that Meredith broke the window herself to get in because she forget her key? It doesn't sound plausible to me either, but let's say that this happened and Rudy saw her do it, and then climbed in after a few minutes.

Just thinking out loud here,

d

-

 

[Desert Fox]

Sorry, but I've got "staged break-in" on the brain.

The thing about this "staged break-in" idea that bothers me, is why in God's name would anyone want to bring attention to a house with a dead body in it by breaking a window after Meredith was already dead?

Rudy might've done it so the cops could maybe come and find Meredith and save her, but that just sounds so implausible, because that would over-complicate something that could be easily accomplished by finding the nearest phone and calling the cops from there.

Of course, he might have done it because he didn't know that Meredith had not told anyone about his date with her, assuming his story is true, and he broke the window to make it look like a burglar did it, but that sounds even more far-fetched, because if he thought people knew about his date, why run then? That makes you look guilty, no matter how nice a spin you put on it.

Or, he might have done it to break into the house.

I can't see Raffaele or Amanda doing it either, because like I originally said, why in God's name would anyone want to bring attention to a house with a dead body in it by breaking a window after Meredith was already dead?

Is it even plausible that Meredith broke the window herself to get in because she forget her key? It doesn't sound plausible to me either, but let's say that this happened and Rudy saw her do it, and then climbed in after a few minutes.

Just thinking out loud here,

Amanda and Raffaele are smart cookies. . . . They would most likely have headed of on their planned vacation and let somebody else discover the body.

 

[Samson]

-

Sorry, but I've got "staged break-in" on the brain.

The thing about this "staged break-in" idea that bothers me, is why in God's name would anyone want to bring attention to a house with a dead body in it by breaking a window after Meredith was already dead?

Rudy might've done it so the cops could maybe come and find Meredith and save her, but that just sounds so implausible, because that would over-complicate something that could be easily accomplished by finding the nearest phone and calling the cops from there.

Of course, he might have done it because he didn't know that Meredith had not told anyone about his date with her, assuming his story is true, and he broke the window to make it look like a burglar did it, but that sounds even more far-fetched, because if he thought people knew about his date, why run then? That makes you look guilty, no matter how nice a spin you put on it.

Or, he might have done it to break into the house.

I can't see Raffaele or Amanda doing it either, because like I originally said, why in God's name would anyone want to bring attention to a house with a dead body in it by breaking a window after Meredith was already dead?

Is it even plausible that Meredith broke the window herself to get in because she forget her key? It doesn't sound plausible to me either, but let's say that this happened and Rudy saw her do it, and then climbed in after a few minutes.

Just thinking out loud here,

d

-

Ask them on PMF if you join, honest questions are posted and answered if phrased the right way. Machiavelli says that Amanda knew there could be no one upstairs or downstairs home the whole period. DanO proved otherwise, some way, but Mach is resolute.

 

[Numbers]

It's worth mention that Pietro Venezia was put on trial and found guilty.

This notion should be couple with the fact that the US not only have signed an extradition treaty with Italy, they also signed the Strasbourg convention (a multi-lateral treaty), which would hava allowed Pietro Venezia to come back to Italy anyway to serve his sentence if he chose so.

Would the USA have complied with the Strasbourg convention?

Both the Sentencing State and the Administering State must agree to a transfer, as well as the person who was sentenced. See the excerpt from the treaty text below.

Thus the US did comply with the treaty; it exercised a right not to transfer.

{I'm sure I am only reminding you of law you already know, as you will inform me, and that I have somehow misstated your statement, as has happened (at least in your opinion) several times previously.}

http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en/Treaties/Html/112.htm

Article 3 – Conditions for transfer

A sentenced person may be transferred under this Convention only on the following conditions:
if that person is a national of the administering State;
if the judgment is final;
if, at the time of receipt of the request for transfer, the sentenced person still has at least six months of the sentence to serve or if the sentence is indeterminate;
if the transfer is consented to by the sentenced person or, where in view of his age or his physical or mental condition one of the two States considers it necessary, by the sentenced person's legal representative;
if the acts or omissions on account of which the sentence has been imposed constitute a criminal offence according to the law of the administering State or would constitute a criminal offence if committed on its territory; and
if the sentencing and administering States agree to the transfer. In exceptional cases, Parties may agree to a transfer even if the time to be served by the sentenced person is less than that specified in paragraph

 

[Numbers]

The treaty goes together with the Strasbourg convention. You can't have one without the other.

But it is a fact that the two justice models appear to pursue some goals ideologically opposed between each other.
The US system seems to place great importance in punshment (identifies justice with a punishment) while the Italian system places a greater importance on the determination of a judicial truth (identifies justice with establishing a truth, while punishment is secondary).

Your statement above is either unclear or incorrect. If by "treaty" you are referring to the extradition treaty between the US and Italy, there is no reference within it to the Strasbourg Convention. Nor is there any reference to extradition treaties in the Strasbourg Convention. They are independent in that sense.

If you are referring to some other treaty, please identify it in more detail.

 

[Magister]

It'a a failure in thinking to supose the way things are is the way they were. When I see blood stains repeated on inside creases it tells me that the sheet had been altered since the blood was deposited.

Presuming that the boys aren't lying about leaving a bloody mess in their apartment before they all ran off for a holiday. What are the other possibilities?

The one I come up with is the tidy homemaker Meredith who is the last person known to have been in that apartment decided to make the bed before her boys returned. But when she grabbed the clean sheet and fluffed it out she discovered the blood that had stained one corner of the folded sheet and soaked through to the other layers. She left the sheet on the bed promising herself that she would come back to it after she delt with her own laundry that was upstairs in the washer. She locks the bedroom door to keep the cat from making more of a mess and heads upstairs shortly after 9pm.

When did Meredith last go into the downstairs apartment?
Why would she have gone into Stefano's room?
The blood stains were on Stefano's mattress and duvet. There was no sheet.
His door was said to have been locked.....if so, how did she have the key?

There was blood on the floor of Giacomo's room.
His door had been locked.
The police kicked down his door which suggests his keys had been on Meredith's keyring which was never recovered.

Who left the clothes strewn on the floor in the sitting room area?

 

[Numbers]

Pietro who?

{Highlighting added.}

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1998-06-26/news/9806260060_1_venezia-italy-pietro

Italian Judges Convict Man Of Slaying In Miami
OTHER NEWS TO NOTE - The World
June 26, 1998

TARANTO, Italy - An Italian-born restaurant owner whose murder trial spanned two continents was convicted Thursday of killing a Miami tax collector in retaliation for freezing his bank account. Pietro Venezia, 45, was found guilty by an Italian panel of eight judges of killing Donald Bonham on Christmas Eve 1993. Some testimony in the trial was taken in the United States after Venezia fled to Italy, which refused to extradite him. Venezia was sentenced to 23 years in prison and fined $200,000.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/19..._1_tax-collector-donald-bonham-pietro-venezia

Fugitive Arrested In Italy
Miami Restaurateur Charged In Murder
April 21, 1994|By LUISA YANEZ Staff Writer

MIAMI — A fugitive restaurateur sought in the Christmas Eve slaying of a state tax collector was arrested in Italy, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement announced on Wednesday.

Pietro Venezia, 40, owner and president of Ristorante Buccione, a popular Italian eatery in Miami's Coconut Grove, was arrested on Tuesday at his father's home in Laterza in southeast Italy.

Police officers in the small community took the restaurateur into custody, FDLE spokesman John Joyce said.

Venezia's arrest ends a four-month international manhunt. Venezia had been at large after becoming the prime suspect in the Dec. 24 shooting death of Donald Bonham, 61, of North Miami Beach. Bonham worked as a collector for the Florida Department of Revenue.

The revenue department had accused Venezia of keeping an undisclosed amount of state sales tax money he collected rather than paying it to the state.

Bonham, a $21,709-a-year tax collector, processed an order freezing the restaurant's accounts, and his name went on the order. Venezia confronted Bonham and the two had a heated exchange, witnesses told police.

Days later, Bonham, loaded down with groceries, was gunned down on his front porch. Anne Bonham said she was in the kitchen when she heard the shots and ran to find her husband fatally wounded. At first, police suspected a robbery. Suspicion turned to Venezia, who disappeared.

An arrest warrant was issued on Dec. 30 charging Venezia with first-degree murder. Venezia is expected to be extradited to Dade soon. His restaurant remains open.

State Revenue Director Larry Fuchs praised the coalition of local, state, federal and international police who tracked down Venezia, aided by information Bonham had obtained that showed Venezia had financial ties in his native Italy.

 

[Numbers]

It could be applied, theoretically.

But I think in Pietro Venezia's legal strategy of opposing extradition, the lack of guaranteees that he could come back to Italy is what plaid the major role.

Previously, you had stated the reason was that the State of Florida would not follow the the demand of Italy that Florida abolish its laws establishing the death penalty for certain crimes.

Now you have stated a different reason, that Venezia would not be allowed to return to Italy to serve his sentence (which could not be the death penalty, since the US-Italy extradition treaty does not allow extradition if the dp were to be imposed as a sentence, and Florida agreed to this condition) under the Strasbourg Convention. However, the State of Florida and the US indeed could rightfully deny a request for a transfer, as could Italy, for any person sentenced. And in fact, Venezia served a short period of time in prison in Italy for what in the US would be considered the very heinous crime of premeditated murder, and apparently as part of his other criminal enterprise of not fully paying his taxes.

 

[RWVBWL]

Missing Downstairs video from Nov. 2, 2007

Of course, it's not blood from a cat. Certainly too much blood for a drip from a cat's ear, IMO.

DNA profiling results could tell who the blood was from, if indeed it is human blood. The Italian (non)-scientific police would have the answer. The answer they have suppressed.

Howdy,
About that photo I posted earlier.

Here's a smaller version of it:

The screen grab is from the 2nd video of the downstairs crime scene.
Not the 1st crime scene video showing downstairs.

Note the date on that screen grab I posted, it is on Nov. 3rd, 2007.
Over 24 hours later, after 1st breaking in downstairs, in the bedrooms, finding blood.

I've wondered why we can not see the full version of the 1st crime scene video from downstairs?

The 1st crime scene video from Nov. 2, 2007
stops after they break in and go thru the kitchen and find the pot plants.

The cops who video'd downstairs, decided, for some reason,
to shut off the video camera, or have edited out the scenes,
of the search of the guys bedrooms.

Methos gave us the link,
you too should watch it::
https://mega.co.nz/#!O4Zh3QxY!MLLxQsnTnxYs-zyAwlsjoak4-yw9QIPILsefu8ZDq08

At 4:28pm on Nov. 2, 2007,
Officer Lorena Zugarini is seen kicking in the downstairs kitchen window.

There is a 12 minutes deleted or not filmed section before the camera records again, at 4:40pm,
now being inside the boys downstairs flat.

1 minute later, the video camera shows the boyz pot plants.
Then the clip ends. Why?

(It does not show any of the boys bedrooms,
1 of which was locked and broken into. This was apparently Giacomo's -(Meredith's boyfriend) bedroom. There is wavy blood lines on his floor. Stefano's bed is messed up, with blood drops on it and straight blood lines on his comforter. But we do not get to see this, yet.)

In the 1st crime scene video,
after filming Meredith's boyfriends illegal marijuana plants,
it restarts 1 hour and 56 minutes later,
at 6:37pm, back upstairs, in Meredith's flat.

* * *

The following day,
25 1/2 hours later, after the cops 1st broke in downstairs,
after 6:13pm we get to see the blood drops on the outside stairs,
in their bathroom, on Giacomo's floor, on Stefano's bed, etc.

Watch the video:
https://mega.co.nz/#!fwo3UbDS!YpT6M0rQJiaKKLy6HjZ8XrfB69YrKpgFCIVGaHckejw

Why did the police stop videoing downstairs on Nov. 2 when they were 1st discovering the guys bedrooms?
2 of these bedrooms had blood in there.
Something happened downstairs.

When I wonder about the blood drops and bloody straight line seen on Stefano's bedspread, I wonder where is the missing video from the 1st search of the boys bedrooms on Nov 2, 2007? What are they hiding?

 

[Dan O.]

...

Is it even plausible that Meredith broke the window herself to get in because she forget her key? It doesn't sound plausible to me either, but let's say that this happened and Rudy saw her do it, and then climbed in after a few minutes.

-

No, since mid October it simply wasn't possible for Meredith or any of the girls to forget their keys. They needed them to lock the door on their way out.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hey RWVB,

Great pics, and yes, I see what you see.

Not sure which stains are tested, but sure doesn't look like "cat work" to me.

Any way to fit these images up with the other bloody knife outline from upstairs, in a reliable way? (That's a real geometry question).

Hi Carbonjam72,
Here you go,

check out a comparison of the blood drops and straight lines on Miss Kercher's bed
to Stefano's bed comforter that I posted above...

 

[Samson]

Hi Carbonjam72,
Here you go,
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=9305[/qimg]
check out a comparison of the blood drops and straight lines on Miss Kercher's bed
to Stefano's bed comforter that I posted above...

whoah, that's mach's and Crini's outline in that overlay

 

[Numbers]

-

Sorry, but I've got "staged break-in" on the brain.

The thing about this "staged break-in" idea that bothers me, is why in God's name would anyone want to bring attention to a house with a dead body in it by breaking a window after Meredith was already dead?

Rudy might've done it so the cops could maybe come and find Meredith and save her, but that just sounds so implausible, because that would over-complicate something that could be easily accomplished by finding the nearest phone and calling the cops from there.

Of course, he might have done it because he didn't know that Meredith had not told anyone about his date with her, assuming his story is true, and he broke the window to make it look like a burglar did it, but that sounds even more far-fetched, because if he thought people knew about his date, why run then? That makes you look guilty, no matter how nice a spin you put on it.

Or, he might have done it to break into the house.

I can't see Raffaele or Amanda doing it either, because like I originally said, why in God's name would anyone want to bring attention to a house with a dead body in it by breaking a window after Meredith was already dead?

Is it even plausible that Meredith broke the window herself to get in because she forget her key? It doesn't sound plausible to me either, but let's say that this happened and Rudy saw her do it, and then climbed in after a few minutes.

Just thinking out loud here,

d

-

Would Meredith be tall enough to get into the apartment window from the last step on the climb up?

I had thought Patrick Lumumba would have been too short, as well, and that could have been one reason (not verbalized by police) that the cops felt the break-in was staged. That is, they quickly decided that Lumumba was guilty and since he wasn't tall enough to make the climb (my supposition), that went with the theory that Amanda as a key-holder let him in.

Just my own bit of semi-random theorizing.

 

[Dan O.]

.

I've wondered why we can not see the full version of the 1st crime scene video from downstairs?

This turns out not to be the fault of ILE. The file was accidentally deleted and we haven't gotten access to another copy. I've known about it for several years. I'm surprised that nobody else had caught it til now.

 

[AmyStrange]

-

No, since mid October it simply wasn't possible for Meredith or any of the girls to forget their keys. They needed them to lock the door on their way out.

-

Who was the last one to leave the cottage that day? They would be the one to need the key to lock the door,

d

-

 

[RWVBWL]

-
Sorry, but I've got "staged break-in" on the brain.

The thing about this "staged break-in" idea that bothers me, is why in God's name would anyone want to bring attention to a house with a dead body in it by breaking a window after Meredith was already dead?

Rudy might've done it so the cops could maybe come and find Meredith and save her, but that just sounds so implausible, because that would over-complicate something that could be easily accomplished by finding the nearest phone and calling the cops from there.

Of course, he might have done it because he didn't know that Meredith had not told anyone about his date with her, assuming his story is true, and he broke the window to make it look like a burglar did it, but that sounds even more far-fetched, because if he thought people knew about his date, why run then? That makes you look guilty, no matter how nice a spin you put on it.

Or, he might have done it to break into the house.

I can't see Raffaele or Amanda doing it either, because like I originally said, why in God's name would anyone want to bring attention to a house with a dead body in it by breaking a window after Meredith was already dead?<snip>
d
-

AmyStrange,
I totally agree!!!
I mean, come on, whose gonna murder someone and start to break glass windows at the house?

Might as well start screaming out loud that "I killed her!"

Oh wait a sec.
wasn't some dude, covered in blood,
found nearby in Perugia early the next morning after Meredith's death, screaming this, right?

I wonder if the hobo Antonio Curatolo
-(ain't that what PM Mignini called him, in court?)
or if Nara C. heard this guy, covered in blood,
screamin' on a early holiday mornin'??

 

[AmyStrange]

-

Would Meredith be tall enough to get into the apartment window from the last step on the climb up?

I had thought Patrick Lumumba would have been too short, as well, and that could have been one reason (not verbalized by police) that the cops felt the break-in was staged. That is, they quickly decided that Lumumba was guilty and since he wasn't tall enough to make the climb (my supposition), that went with the theory that Amanda as a key-holder let him in.

Just my own bit of semi-random theorizing.

-

Good question.

That's something I don't know, if Meredith was tall enough to climb into the window. How tall would that have to be? If Rudy is that much taller than Meredith, that gives more credence to the belief that he could have overpowered Meredith easily,

d

-

 

[RWVBWL]

I've wondered why we can not see the full version of the 1st crime scene video from downstairs?

This turns out not to be the fault of ILE. The file was accidentally deleted and we haven't gotten access to another copy. I've known about it for several years. I'm surprised that nobody else had caught it til now.

Man, Dan O.,
here I was all set to blame the computer guy,
ya know, the police tech that fried Amanda's, Raff's and IIRC,
even Meredith computer!

So who then accidently deleted the 12 minutes of the 1st crime scene video
from downstairs after they broke in - until they went inside and found, err video'd the pot plants?

The same people that deleted the next 1 hour and 56 minutes of probable downstairs footage
after showing the illegal pot plants that Meredith Kercher's new boyfriend was growing?

What are we missing?
Hmmmm. Only the 1st search of the living room, the other bathroom, and the boyz bedrooms, 1 which had a locked door that had to be broken in to, that had bloody wavy lines on the floor, a bedroom that belonged to the boyfriend of the murdered girl from upstairs, (a foreign college student from abroad studying in Perugia), and another 1 bedroom which had blood drops and numerous straight lines, possibly from a knifes bloody blade edge, imprinted on the bedspread, err, comforter, you might call it.

Gosh,
I'd have luved to watch Officer Lorena Zugarini kick down Giacomo's bedroom door,
heck I bet that 1 was a toughie! Probably took her at least 3 kicks...

Seriously though,
Raff and Amanda's defense team of experts would have never have deleted possibly important evidence from downstairs at the crime scene, would they? Nah, for they woulda been charged for destroying evidence, right?

Where's the missing video from downstairs?

 

[AmyStrange]

-

AmyStrange,
I totally agree!!!
I mean, come on, whose gonna murder someone and start to break glass windows at the house?

Might as well start screaming out loud that "I killed her!"

Oh wait a sec.
wasn't some dude, covered in blood,
found nearby in Perugia early the next morning after Meredith's death, screaming this, right?

I wonder if the hobo Antonio Curatolo
-(ain't that what PM Mignini called him, in court?)
or if Nara C. heard this guy, covered in blood,
screamin' on a early holiday mornin'??

-

I know, they might have well just called the cops right then and there and turned themselves in.

They had to find a rock, go back in the house and throw the rock through the glass to the outside (that's the theory right) and then go out and find it and bring it back in and throw it into the bag. They did all that just so they could kill Meredith? And where was Rudy while all this was going on? You mean they came back even later that night to break the window? Yeah, right.

The bloody guy you mention, that story has always fascinated me, but there is so little out there about it. It feels to me like an urban legend of sorts, but what if it is true,

d

-

 

[Dan O.]

-


-

Who was the last one to leave the cottage that day? They would be the one to need the key to lock the door,

d

-

It's not about locking the door. The door would not stay closed unless it was locked. After two weeks, the girls would have developed the habit of unlocking the door and turning around to lock it behind them every time they went through.