Miracle of the Shroud II: The Second Coming

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John Jones said:
Carbon dating rules out an authentic shroud - scores 100%

/discussion
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When Jesus woke up after he croaked, the Resurrection Event zapped the tomb interior with energy, which messed up all the carbon atoms, so they give the wrong date. Don't you know anything about science?
 
Jabba said:
Slowvehicle,

- Not for awhile, at least.

- I'm going to try to find out.
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Sir, I do appologize. I am at school, and the system is often slow. I edited my post while you were responding to it.

Please see the highlighted it, below, which is the added part:

Slowvehicle said:
Good Morning, Mr. Savage!

I wonder if you will continue to ignore my posts...

What "scores" do you, personally, think you have, that have not already been dealt with, and dismissed?

I don't mean to seem rude, or to give you another excuse to dismiss me, but seriously: Do you intend to address the fact that the "image" on the manifestly medieval linen cloth is a stylized, anatomically impossible, physically ridiculous, scripturally inaccurate, representation, in the byzantine style, of an idealized human; or do you, instead, intend to pursue the, "Well, the experts must have missed 'some patching', in an unknown style and with unduplicatable technique, and they were all in collusion anyway," line of reasoning?
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Might I say that it seems, to me at least, to be late, late, even parlous late, in the game to be deciding that you will "try to find out"?

I might suggest that you go, and "find out", before you summon up this zombi thread.
 
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I expect no further resolution of the topic of this thread (if Jabba returns to it as promised), than was provided by the past 10 months of silence. This is based on Jabba's prior postings before that. Talk about kicking a dead horse Messiah...
 
Jabba said:
- Thanks, Ward.
- I'm fine -- just even older and slower than I was.

- I've been wanting to get back for a few months now, but needed to finish something else first.
- This time, my primary interest is to see how well we can organize the pros and cons. Our topic has several sub-topics, and then layers and layers of sub-sub-topics. I would like to see how well we can list them -- and, score them.
- Seeya later.
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There is only one important point; the shroud is a medieval fake.


HighRiser said:
Please remind me if I've forgotten. Which arguments for authenticity were supported by objective evidence?
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None.
 
Why do I get the feeling that Given the choice between the rock and this thread, Sisyphus would say, "I think my chances of success are better with the rock"?
 
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Ladewig said:
Why do I get the feeling that Given the choice between the rock and this thread, Sisyphus would say, "I think my chances of success are better with the rock"?
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Prometheus would say the same about an eagle eternally devouring his liver.
 
Jack Benny, supposedly stingy, had a routine in which a robber comes up to him with a gun and declares, "Your money or your life!" Jack just stands there. The robber repeats, "What's wrong with you, your money or your life!" Jack says, "I'm thinking..."

In this case, "Return to this thread or your life!" Well, I'm thinking...
 
I went back and read Jabba's website MessiahOrNot a few weeks ago, and nothing has been updated in years. Time after time, every pro-authenticity argument on that site has been demolished either logically, factually, or both.

Nothing has been honed, polished, or refined - merely repeated ad nauseam
 
Jabba,

If you want to make a list of pro-authenticity arguments, I'm sure that there are members here who will link you to the forum posts (in this thread and the previous one) that deal with each of those arguments. Unless you are bringing something new to the table, I don't think you should expect anything new in return.

That makes the conversation a lot less fun, but without new info, that's what you get.

Glad you are well. I was worried.

Ward
 
Jabba said:
- Thanks, Ward.
- I'm fine -- just even older and slower than I was.

- I've been wanting to get back for a few months now, but needed to finish something else first.
- This time, my primary interest is to see how well we can organize the pros and cons. Our topic has several sub-topics, and then layers and layers of sub-sub-topics. I would like to see how well we can list them -- and, score them.
- Seeya later.
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Good evening, Mr. Savage!

Have you, perhaps, noticed a certain...sameness...to the responses you have gotten, today? Might I make a suggestion?

It would be, in my opinion, rude to the point of actual offense, not to mention disingenuous (if not flatly dishonest), of you to "organize" what you consider "pros" if what you are choosing to call "pros" are the same baseless assertions you have presented multiple times before.

Your primary hurdle is, as it has been, the fact that the linen was tested by three different independent laboratories, using three different cleaning and testing protocols, and found to be a piece of cloth dating from no earlier than the mid-13th Century CE. That is the first obstacle you must overcome, and it is but one of legion.

It will not do, for instance, for you to imply, darkly, that "collusion" was afoot, or that the labs returned the result they were told to return, unless you can indicate some evidence of such dishonesty on the part of the labs other than the fact that the results are not what you want them to be.

It will not do for you to speak of incompetence; to imply that all three labs (as well as every single one of the specialist who have actually examined the cloth itself) simply missed "some patching". The only evidence for a miracle patch is the fact (again) that the 14C tests indicate a result not to your liking.

However, I would like you to consider an even deeper issue. Suppose, simply for the sake of argument, that the cloth itself were, somehow, demonstrated to be of 1st Century CE manufacture (how such might occur is irrelevant to the point I wish to make).

Even if the cloth itself were of 1st Century CE provenance, you would only face more obstacles, to wit:

1. The image on the cloth is not anatomically correct, or even anatomically reasonable.

2. The image on the cloth is depicted in an anatomically impossible position (did you ever even attempt to lie flat and assume the "shroud slouch"?).

3. The image on the cloth depicts scripturally inaccurate "wounds".

4. The image on the cloth does not, itself, match the scriptural description of the "cloths" used to bind the body of Jesus.

5. The image on the cloth depicts "blood' flowing in ways that completely ignore gravity, and capillary action, and the principles of adsorption and absorption.

6. The image on the cloth is a representational (not figural) graphic (not photographic) depiction of a stylized human form. The hands, the face, the head, the limbs, the torso and the pelvis (to name but a few issues) do not conform to actual human bodies.

...and there are more.

I sincerely hope that if you do, in fact, "organize" what you want to call "pros", you will not be so insulting as to simply repeat any of your earlier assertions. If you have new evidence, new ideas, by all means--present them, I will address them, as will others. If all you have is your perfervid desire that the manifestly medieval cloth might yet somehow be the "authentic shroudTM", I sincerely hope you might reconsider. It seems to me that simply repeating unsupported and unreasonable assertions will not go over any better than your original presentation did.

I hope you will consider what I have posted.
 
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Jabba said:
- Thanks, Ward.
- I'm fine -- just even older and slower than I was.

- I've been wanting to get back for a few months now, but needed to finish something else first.
- This time, my primary interest is to see how well we can organize the pros and cons. Our topic has several sub-topics, and then layers and layers of sub-sub-topics. I would like to see how well we can list them -- and, score them.
- Seeya later.
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So is the plan to spend a year in this thread once again pushing baseless arguments and then when you get tired of it abandon it again for your immortality thread (or threads--whatever that whole forgettable mess was) for another year?

This is getting so *********** tiresome, Jabba.
 
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Jabba said:
- This time, my primary interest is to see how well we can organize the pros and cons.
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Brothel.jpg


Prison.jpg


You're welcome.
 
And now the classified scores -

Shroud 0 Reality 8 (eight) - Reality goes through and will play Bigfoot in the Quarter Finals
 
Objective

- For now at least, I just want to see how well we can organize our past discussion. I don't really plan on arguing the case (for now, at least).
- Mostly, I'd like to present the totality of your case to the Porter blog, and see if my side has good answers. For instance, I'll present your claims re "banding" and "trace elements," and see what authenticity people have to say -- if anything. Before I present your claims, I'll run them past you for your approval.
 
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