Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Desert Fox]

Thanks for your addition, I agree with you about Nencini's cherry-picking. I just re-read that the other night and felt sick to my stomach by the time I was done. As for your example, he's believing the 'professional burglar' that he didn't break in but that someone else (who didn't need it) stole the money.

I think I need to reconsider the odds that the pile of trash that Nencini produced will get confirmed. Since Italy has been the worst (or close) offender of the ECHR for a half century now I figured the Italian Judiciary simply didn't care how ill regarded they were by the ECHR and would confirm anything and simply ignore the likelihood the ECHR would find violations in it.

Then I remembered the defense has 400+ pages of appeals and that the Galati document at ~170 pages was considered large for an appeal to the ISC. They will have to eventually try to square the circle and that cannot be done with the Nencini Report. Attempting to answer the defense appeal will be impossible: Nencini gets basic facts wrong to go along with him cherry picking as well.

They still might confirm it, but in the long run that might well work out best for Amanda and Raffaele. Another authoritative body looking at the case and the handling of it by the Massei and Nencini courts and excoriating them could be better than a quashing and a decision not to pursue the case further for length of trial or another 'technicality.'

Going to prison for Raffaele until an appeal is heard would not be better for him. It might be better for the Italian legal system in the long run however.

 

[Diocletus]

No. There would be no change. They pass the thing through (but actually the United Section is basically just an enlargment - and re-arrangement - of the panel from the original 5 up to 9 Judges, and includes the First President and prominent members of the sections).

Is that the 9-11 Truther nut job?

 

[Diocletus]

Well early releas depends on remorse, and remorse is shown - as by jurisprudence - by actions attempting to repair sufferings of the victims parties. If you show a will to pay damages, it means you are behaving well.

So, a little blood money and it's all good? What is this? Albania?

 

[Kaosium]

Going to prison for Raffaele until an appeal is heard would not be better for him. It might be better for the Italian legal system in the long run however.

I think that extra prison time might well be worth the value of being exonerated for the rest of his life. If the ECHR takes up the case and finds numerous violations and puts this case to rest decisively and awards Raffaele a hefty sum for that additional prison time it may well be best, at least in the long run. Raffaele probably has another half-century or so to live, he deserves that exoneration. So does Amanda.

 

[carbonjam72]

Well early releas depends on remorse, and remorse is shown - as by jurisprudence - by actions attempting to repair sufferings of the victims parties. If you show a will to pay damages, it means you are behaving well.

ISIS would no doubt agree.

 

[carbonjam72]

Is that the 9-11 Truther nut job?

oh jesus, wouldn't that idiot Chieffi have to recuse himself since its his idiotic opinion reversing Hellman that caused this mess?

That's like Mignini and Commodi "investigating" Knox's claims of being struck twice by Ficarra in the interrogation.

A failure to establish an independent body of investigation of wrong doing, isn't that how Amnesty International described it? Sounds like they pretty much nailed it.

Poor Raf, oh my god, what he must be experiencing.

Italian Justice: As Straight As A Slinky.

 

[Bill Williams]

The separation strategy is aimed at the way (principally) Nencini cherry-picks what he wants from a single item of "evidence". For instance, if Nencini is going to make use of the morning memoriale to place Amanda at the crimescene, then that memorandum does not place Raffaele there. Yet Nencini insists that evidence which he claims convicts one, should be seen as convicting both.

Reading Raffaele's appeals document discusses this.
(...)

The separation strategy was unfold during closing arguments at the Florence trial. Nencini had not written his report yet at the time.

My mistake was to limit it to Nencini - but given that the appeals document to Cassazione is because of the Nencini ruling I am sure you will forgive me. However, since Nencini simply made up stuff anyway, it would be just like him to make this up out of thin air, too.

However, did Crini not utter anything at trial? I mean, there was a prosecutor at the Florence trial, wasn't there, or did Nencini not need to take evidence from him? Was the "evidence against one is evidence against both" doctrine not established far earlier than Nencini's motivations report?

 

[MichaelB]

New English translation of Antonella Negri.

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Testimony-of-Antonella-Negri.pdf

 

[MichaelB]

Does anyone have a copy of the letter Amanda wrote in class that day from a credible source? I've read it before somewhere.

 

[Planigale]

From an Italian Forensic Science site, this! (from a few years ago)

A google translation. Original linked.


http://www.sos-scienzeforensi.org/i...icle&id=9:delitto-perugia&catid=14&Itemid=122

The turning point in the appeal against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, next hearing on July 25, unleashed criticism of the experts against investigations and scientific evidence. Monster of Florence, Unabomber, Cogne, Yellow Garlasco, murder of Marta Russo, crime of Perugia ... just some of the major cases of crime that confirm, along with dozens of stories less known to the public, the decline of Criminal Italian. Autopsies and repeated inspections, investigative practices and laboratory tests peppered with blunders, omissions absurd and fanciful conclusions; expert reports supported by scientific theories outdated and ... judgments.
This is because the police Scientific and Ris Carabinieri to innovation are lagging behind, being devoid of staff able to update through direct knowledge of the latest research in English written by experts Anglo-Saxon, German, Israeli ...

Edoardo Mori, a retired magistrate after he was before the investigating judge, magistrate, and then finally to the courts: "I am asking for an expert opinion to the Scientific or Ris - says the former judge who runs the site where earmi.it collects, among other things, errors and horrors of scientific studies and not - as are those on the health of a joint call for information to the orderly. "Marco Morin, among the world's leading experts in ballistics, "Sometimes the assumptions are based investigative processed by police Digos of expert reports produced by their colleagues in the Scientific." Giuseppe Fortuni, professor of forensic medicine at Bologna with four decades of experience in the field: "Despite all the scientific techniques of investigation are less guilty than before."
And former General Luciano Garofano, long head of Ris of Parma, admits the cultural lag, "The police has made leaps and bounds in the technique of the inspection and the laboratory tests, but much remains to be done. At the crime scene should go only pure specialists that we have not. "

In short, pm and judges have too much confidence in the investigation laboratory tests. And the so-called comparative (advice of the expert witnesses) than to construct alternative tests are directed to "dismantle" incontrovertible certainties deemed by the prosecution. You will not need to find the culprit, but at least, and not cheap, may prevent an innocent end up in jail. Obstinacy pm and allowing judges.
It was said of major cases of crime dotted appraisals wrong. Let's just two areas: the gunshot residue and DNA testing. In the trial against Peter Pacciani, we are in 1992, the Court of Assizes of Florence had asked three so-called experts to check whether a baby doll and a diaper Baby had been used to wrap or clean firearms and if on them there were traces of gunpowder compatible with 22-caliber ammunition (those of the so-called gun monster of Florence, never found).
Responding to the first question the experts attributed to sprint weapon 9mm footprint black formed by two concentric blacks found on the fabric. And part of the consultants had good game in demolishing the expertise in that there was no gun with the barrel 4.5 mm thick, which is capable of leaving an impression like that.
Crime of Perugia.

The courts of appeal trial against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, who were convicted for the murder of Meredith Kercher, has arrived in recent weeks an expertise that puts a strain on the truths on which was based the decision at first instance. But, unfortunately, the public trust in the so-called scientific evidence able to nail the culprit.
The DNA found on the so-called murder weapon could not be that of the victim, the bra Mez traces were found more males ... The experts concluded by writing: "Do not you followed the international procedures of inspection and protocols collection and sampling. "And then we wonder whether the United States follow the story with an apprehension similar to that harboring towards a process (against an American) celebrated in Sudan or in Malawi.

Because the limit of the scientific evidence is not scientific: if the crime scene did not observe very strict protocols, all laboratory tests are likely to be perfectly useless.

This supports what has been observed in this case. A laboratory scientist - Stephanoni - without apparent training in crime scene investigation - runs the crime scene investigation, with consequent errors. Importantly what she was doing was probably normal practice in Italy. She and those around her would see nothing wrong in what she did - she probably did the best she could given her lack of expertise. This is called normalisation of deviance. One can see the reluctance of the Italian legal system to accept that much of what they have done for many years is poor practice, with the consequent risk that convictions may need to be reassessed.

 

[Planigale]

She has both "laurea specialistica" (mastere degree) and PhD.

I already said this in the past.

But by the way the wikipedia entry is not wholly correct.
The first distinction in degrees in Italy is "laurea di primo livello" or "laurea breve", and "laura di secondo livello" or "laurea specialistica". The first is an equivalent of a B.A, the latter is a master degree.
However this distinction is very recent in Italy. When I got my degree, there were no short degrees, you could take only a master degree.
At the time when Stefenoni got her degree she chould only get a master degree (that was 5 years at the time). Then she became research doctor and assistent professor.

Usually one does a three year full time research studentship and submits a thesis and is examined on it to be awarded a PhD. This would be after completing an MSc if doing one. This would mean about 7 years as a full time student. One does not just become a PhD. (Just to be snotty if she did do a PhD did not get much in the way of publications out of it.)

 

[platonov]

A doctor writes

Sounds like a superpower to me. What am I missing?

That even Raffy doesn't buy your 'early & precise' ToD

 

[Dan O.]

Do you think she removed her bra herself or someone did it for her (the way you describe) before being murdered? If so that might suggest a later staging of the scene in Meredith's room.

The bra was torn apart exactly as if someone had tried to lift Meredith by grabbing the back band behind the right shoulder. I don't believe Meredith could have done that herself.

(By "exactly" I mean down to the last stitch that was torn out and the bending of only the top hook.)

 

[Numbers]

The bra was torn apart exactly as if someone had tried to lift Meredith by grabbing the back band behind the right shoulder. I don't believe Meredith could have done that herself. (By "exactly" I mean down to the last stitch that was torn out and the bending of only the top hook.)

{Highlighting added to quote.}

Are you suggesting that she didn't commit suicide?

And was Guede's DNA detected on the bra? Where on the bra was it, if it was detected?

And why would the other males' DNA be on the bra clasp then?

 

[Numbers]

I may have posted info on this before, but as a reminder:

False confession to the judicial authorities is a crime in Italy, called "autocalunnia".
Punishment if convicted for this crime is, IIRC, one to three years imprisonment.

So one who is coercively interrogated in Italy and is compliant or otherwise makes a (false) statement against one's self or another (that the police seek through the interrogation) will be at risk of being convicted of something.

 

[lonepinealex]

I may have posted info on this before, but as a reminder:

False confession to the judicial authorities is a crime in Italy, called "autocalunnia".
Punishment if convicted for this crime is, IIRC, one to three years imprisonment.

So one who is coercively interrogated in Italy and is compliant or otherwise makes a (false) statement against one's self or another (that the police seek through the interrogation) will be at risk of being convicted of something.

Don't s'pose you've got an English language link for this? Having a discussion about false confessions on another forum and it would be an interesting addition.

 

[Numbers]

Don't s'pose you've got an English language link for this? Having a discussion about false confessions on another forum and it would be an interesting addition.

Source: http://www.altalex.com/index.php?idnot=36764

Art. 369.
Autocalunnia.

Chiunque, mediante dichiarazione ad alcuna delle autorità indicate nell'articolo precedente, anche se fatta con scritto anonimo o sotto falso nome, ovvero mediante confessione innanzi all'autorità giudiziaria, incolpa se stesso di un reato che egli sa non avvenuto, o di un reato commesso da altri, è punito con la reclusione da uno a tre anni.

Google Translate:

Art. 369.
Autocalunnia.

Whoever, by declaration to any of the authorities mentioned in the previous article, even if made with written anonymously or under a false name, or by confession before the courts, blames himself for a crime that he knows of no effect, or of a crime committed by others, shall be punished with imprisonment of one to three years.

{Previous article is Art. 368, Calunnia, and the authorities are the "judicial authorities"}

 

[lonepinealex]

Thank you. Much appreciated.

 

[Bill Williams]

That even Raffy doesn't buy your 'early & precise' ToD

Citation, please. Again, you have not read much from Raffaele's point of view, yet now you're quoting him.

 

[Numbers]

Source: http://www.altalex.com/index.php?idnot=36764

Art. 369.
Autocalunnia.

Chiunque, mediante dichiarazione ad alcuna delle autorità indicate nell'articolo precedente, anche se fatta con scritto anonimo o sotto falso nome, ovvero mediante confessione innanzi all'autorità giudiziaria, incolpa se stesso di un reato che egli sa non avvenuto, o di un reato commesso da altri, è punito con la reclusione da uno a tre anni.

Google Translate:

Art. 369.
Autocalunnia.

Whoever, by declaration to any of the authorities mentioned in the previous article, even if made with written anonymously or under a false name, or by confession before the courts, blames himself for a crime that he knows of no effect, or of a crime committed by others, shall be punished with imprisonment of one to three years.

{Previous article is Art. 368, Calunnia, and the authorities are the "judicial authorities"}

For comparison, here is Art. 368 translated, same references:

Art. 368.
Slander.

Anyone with denunciation, complaint, demand or request, even if anonymously or under a false name, directly to the court or other authority that has the obligation to report or the International Criminal Court, blames anybody of a crime that he knows innocent, that simulates borne him the traces of a crime {=creates false evidence}, shall be punished with imprisonment from two to six years (1).
The penalty is increased if es'incolpa {=one incriminates} anybody of a crime through which the law prescribes a penalty of imprisonment for a maximum ten years, or another more serious penalty.
Imprisonment is from four to twelve years, if the act results in a prison sentence up to five years; is from six to twenty years, if the act results in a life sentence; and apply life imprisonment, if the act results in a condemnation to death (2).

(1) Paragraph amended by art. 10, paragraph 3, L. December 20, 2012, n. 237. The text previously in force was as follows: "Whoever, with the complaint, complaint, demand or request, even if anonymously or under a false name, directly to the court or other authority that has the obligation to report, blames anybody of a crime that he knows innocent, that simulates borne him the traces of a crime, shall be punished with imprisonment from two to six years. ".
(2) The death penalty for offenses under the Criminal Code was abolished by art. 1 of D.Lgs.Lgt. August 10, 1944, n. 224.
_______________

See. Court of Torre Annunziata, judgment of 30 October 2007 the Supreme Court criminal sect. VI, judgment of 24 January 2008, n. 3922, Criminal Cassation, sez. VI, judgment of 13 June 2008 n. 24114, Criminal Cassation, sez. VI, judgment of 26 January 2009, no. 3427 and Criminal Cassation, sez. VI, judgment of 8 September 2009, no. 34821 in American Lawyer in Massimario.

{My attempts to clarify in {}.}