Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Rolfe]

I understand the importance of parallels in these cases, and they should be able to be discussed without being perceived as derails of a thread.
I am now fascinated to see we are in day 4 of the Mark Lundy retrial here, and the prosecution have incredibly moved time of death for the two victims from 7 15pm to early morning, and they ate MacDonalds before 6pm. And yet they have scheduled a 3 month trial and 150 witnesses. They have some sort of a pathologist's report,

quote:

Pathologist Dr James Pang examined Christine and Amber Lundy's stomach contents and "gastric smell" during a post mortem, and testified at Lundy's 2002 trial that they had died within one hour and 10 minutes of eating their last meal.

The pair had bought McDonald's from the Rangitikei Street outlet at 5.43pm on the night of their death, so Dr Pang placed their time of death between 7pm and 7.15pm. end quote.

There must be something easy to bring to this party!

That sounds a bit BS to me. Way too precise. I really don't believe it's possible to give a time like "1 hour 10 minutes". Or to tell anything very much from the smell. I smell woo.

Nevertheless I would be interested to see how it could be possible to move the ToD so far, if there was recognisable McDonald's in the stomach. Lots more icky detail needed. If it's intriguing enough, go for a new thread!

 

[Samson]

It truly is

See my response to Kaosium.

Here's a good one for a giggle platonov.

Quote

A good example of this would be if the deceased's stomach contents consisted of some sort of pizza. The pizza would take roughly two hours to digest within the stomach and if the autopsy was performed and showed that the pizza was still in the stomach then it would be safe to assume the deceased died within two hours prior to discovery.

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/stomach-contents-as-a-means-of-evidence.html

Actually a detailed response to this would help me understand you and Machiavelli and your staged break in nonsense.
Maybe this article was written by Raffaele Sollecito.

 

[Samson]

That sounds a bit BS to me. Way too precise. I really don't believe it's possible to give a time like "1 hour 10 minutes". Or to tell anything very much from the smell. I smell woo.

Nevertheless I would be interested to see how it could be possible to move the ToD so far, if there was recognisable McDonald's in the stomach. Lots more icky detail needed. If it's intriguing enough, go for a new thread!

I will try to get a copy of the pathologist's report, not sure how, but it must say what food was where, and how identifiable and so on. The 7pm suggestion fitted the original theory, but the murders were imposssible by Lundy at that time because of simple travel logistics, which begs the question how it got accepted 14 years ago. No doubt you are unsurprised...

 

[NotEvenWrong]

Why does platonov keep saying "cartwheel world"? Isn't he pro-guilt? And didn't the initial rumor/smear campaign against Knox indicate she did a "cartwheel" in the police station? So... um... wouldn't "cartwheel world" be the guilter view?

Does platonov even realize he's making fun of his own side...?

 

[Rolfe]

I will try to get a copy of the pathologist's report, not sure how, but it must say what food was where, and how identifiable and so on. The 7pm suggestion fitted the original theory, but the murders were imposssible by Lundy at that time because of simple travel logistics, which begs the question how it got accepted 14 years ago. No doubt you are unsurprised...

Well, 1 hour 10 minutes, and a time of death within a 15 minute window, seem impossibly precise going by stomach contents alone. The thing about Meredith's death is that by the back of nine you're coming up against the far end of the possible window for the start of stomach emptying, but you also have an independent window from a different source entirely that fixes the other end of the time window. That's how you get the precision for the ToD, not from the stomach contents alone. If Sophie hadn't seen her alive just before nine, nobody could have been sure she hadn't been killed earlier.

But having said that, if the time of the meal is about right in the case you're talking about, shifting the ToD six hours or more into the future is equally unrealistic. You'd need some basic confounder like another meal having been eaten that the first court didn't know about.

 

[Dougm]

Why does platonov keep saying "cartwheel world"? Isn't he pro-guilt? And didn't the initial rumor/smear campaign against Knox indicate she did a "cartwheel" in the police station? So... um... wouldn't "cartwheel world" be the guilter view?

Does platonov even realize he's making fun of his own side...?

It's a way to avoid debating the actual case facts. Just make sarcastic remarks, add an emoticon or two, and only mention your own position in vague terms.

It's a reference to the origins of debate here on this case, where there was much discussion about how Knox was only accused because of her so called "odd behavior". We've moved beyond that now, to an actual discussion of legal issues, and that thing called "evidence", which the pro-guilt side mostly avoids talking about.

 

[Kaosium]

OK Kaosium.

You want to leave cartwheel world and discuss stuff from the real world. That is my preferred domain.
You obviously aren’t familiar with AK’s courtroom testimony, or what the court that convicted them found/ruled.
Why would you be - Nov 5th, DNA/Forensics, Fenestration, ballistics, Human rights, Internalised false confessions and the Law are your areas of expertise.

But if you were familiar you would note that AK testifies about - in chronological order -a late dinner (fish&salad), then washing up, the broken pipe[ which AK places ‘around 11’], discussions about mops, going together to his room, smoking a joint, making love and falling asleep together.

And Raffy can’t vouch for any of that!

No, you misunderstand, he vouches for all of that as you can see in his book, "Honor Bound," on pages 17-22. They also introduced evidence in court of his pipe having been worked on recently and Joanna Popovic stopping by.

The convicting court, Massei has, them entering the flat at 11 [ignoring Curatolo] and ToD at a few minutes after 23.30.

So this recently resurrected ‘wasn’t sure if she went out after he fell asleep’ doesn’t work in the real world.
It’s strictly cartwheel world stuff. Do you see.
So have another go.

As you note, the prosecution ignored the fact that Meredith died with 500 cc in her stomach and nothing in her duodenum so they can place the murder any damn time they please, in the case of the Massei court placing it after Raffaele and Amanda have fallen asleep in each other's arms, though they would be up again in the night. Raffaele cannot vouch for what happened when he was sleeping. If the prosecution wants to imagine Amanda over to the cottage to witness/participate in Rudy's crime, they can imagine she did so without Raffaele being there.

If you prefer the short version – He is withdrawing the alibi he never gave her. It’s the TV version of his defence teams April 2008 legal move.
Presumably a precursor to his Cassation submission as Mach has it. Which will be a continuation of the request to Nencini to split the defence?

If they're not going to accept his alibi because it interferes with their case against Amanda they don't have to use it to convict him.

 

[Dan O.]

...

And was Guede's DNA detected on the bra? Where on the bra was it, if it was detected?

According to Stefanoni, Guede's DNA was found on the part of the bra that connects to the missing clasp. This happens also to be where I say the bra needed to be grasped in order to rip it apart as has been seen.

And why would the other males' DNA be on the bra clasp then?

There is no reason for anyone's DNA to have gotten onto the hooks of that clasp prior to, during or subsequent to Meredith's murder. The clasp came off as a result of the bra being torn apart. It ended up on the floor, covered by the pillow and Meredith's body was on top of the pillow. The clasp would not have been touched until it was discovered by the forensics team around 3am on November 3rd. That there is not 1 but the DNA of at least 3 males contributing to that profile indicates that it was not the result of direct contact but some form of secondary or tertiary transfer where DNA from multiple sources could be mixed.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Samson,

(From your link) Jack Claridge wrote, "Given that this process can take such a long time the contents of the stomach - and in particular their condition at the time of autopsy - can help to estimate the time of death." I wish I had a nickel for every time a PG commenter said that stomach contents could not be used for TOD. It's nice to be able to point people to articles such as this one.

 

[Rolfe]

Jack Claridge wrote, "Given that this process can take such a long time the contents of the stomach - and in particular their condition at the time of autopsy - can help to estimate the time of death." I wish I had a nickel for every time a PG commenter said that stomach contents could not be used for TOD. It's nice to be able to point people to articles such as this one.

Totally they can. That's why I kept pointing out the recognisable pizza and crumble in Meredith's stomach to the imaginative brigade who dreamed up a scenario where Guede (presumably alone) restrained and tortured her for hours (while the breakdown was happening outside), then after the tow truck had gone, Amanda and Raffaele joined him to commit the murder. And you see the stress of the prolonged torture held the food in the stomach, but somehow she didn't vomit it.

It was inventive, I'll give them that, but preposterous. Food doesn't remain in contact with the stomach acids for hours without being changed by them.

I just think the 1 hour 10 minutes thing is way too precise.

 

[Desert Fox]

Totally they can. That's why I kept pointing out the recognisable pizza and crumble in Meredith's stomach to the imaginative brigade who dreamed up a scenario where Guede (presumably alone) restrained and tortured her for hours (while the breakdown was happening outside), then after the tow truck had gone, Amanda and Raffaele joined him to commit the murder. And you see the stress of the prolonged torture held the food in the stomach, but somehow she didn't vomit it.

It was inventive, I'll give them that, but preposterous. Food doesn't remain in contact with the stomach acids for hours without being changed by them.

I just think the 1 hour 10 minutes thing is way too precise.

Even 10 pm is a tough fit for Amanda and Raff however

 

[Rolfe]

10 is too late. I think there's no point in dragging it past the back of nine, except for Guede saying she screamed at 9.20. But then he didn't have a watch and was guessing. I'd say she surprised him when she entered the flat, and it escalated quickly from there. There's zero evidence it happened any later.

 

[Desert Fox]

10 is too late. I think there's no point in dragging it past the back of nine, except for Guede saying she screamed at 9.20. But then he didn't have a watch and was guessing. I'd say she surprised him when she entered the flat, and it escalated quickly from there. There's zero evidence it happened any later.

I agree but just stating that even if we play with the time, it still does not help the pro guilt side much.

 

[Samson]

Totally they can. That's why I kept pointing out the recognisable pizza and crumble in Meredith's stomach to the imaginative brigade who dreamed up a scenario where Guede (presumably alone) restrained and tortured her for hours (while the breakdown was happening outside), then after the tow truck had gone, Amanda and Raffaele joined him to commit the murder. And you see the stress of the prolonged torture held the food in the stomach, but somehow she didn't vomit it.

It was inventive, I'll give them that, but preposterous. Food doesn't remain in contact with the stomach acids for hours without being changed by them.

I just think the 1 hour 10 minutes thing is way too precise.

That time was established as the only possible time under the prosecution scenario, where 2 phone calls in Petone were separated by 2 hrs 58 minutes, yet google maps gives

Suggested routes
142 km, 1 hour 52 mins State Highway 1
Driving directions to Palmerston North

and required a lot of activity at the murder scene, with blood spatter everywhere but no traces found related to Lundy.

So clearly the pathologist bisected the time available, and said the autopsy was consistent with that 7 15 pm time, the only remotely conceivable.
But of course all our studies show that an autopsy will definitely distinguish between death 75 minutes after meal, and 6 to 8 hours, chalk and cheese. What is going on will be a great study for me at least, because this matches the absurdity found in our case here.

I will start a thread then, and post trial links as they come through.

 

[carbonjam72]

Even 10 pm is a tough fit for Amanda and Raff however

IIRC, John Douglas put meredith's Time of death at 10pm, from his chapter in 'Rudy Guede, Forgotten killer'.

 

[Rolfe]

That time was established as the only possible time under the prosecution scenario, where 2 phone calls in Petone were separated by 2 hrs 58 minutes, yet google maps gives

Suggested routes
142 km, 1 hour 52 mins State Highway 1
Driving directions to Palmerston North

and required a lot of activity at the murder scene, with blood spatter everywhere but no traces found related to Lundy.

So clearly the pathologist bisected the time available, and said the autopsy was consistent with that 7 15 pm time, the only remotely conceivable.
But of course all our studies show that an autopsy will definitely distinguish between death 75 minutes after meal, and 6 to 8 hours, chalk and cheese. What is going on will be a great study for me at least, because this matches the absurdity found in our case here.

I will start a thread then, and post trial links as they come through.

Indeed. It sounds as if there's more to discuss than can reasonably be accommodated in a short derail in this thread. Go for it!

 

[Rolfe]

IIRC, John Douglas put meredith's Time of death at 10pm, from his chapter in 'Rudy Guede, Forgotten killer'.

Why? That's too late.

 

[platonov]

No, you misunderstand, he vouches for all of that as you can see in his book, "Honor Bound," on pages 17-22. They also introduced evidence in court of his pipe having been worked on recently and Joanna Popovic stopping by.



As you note, the prosecution ignored the fact that Meredith died with 500 cc in her stomach and nothing in her duodenum so they can place the murder any damn time they please, in the case of the Massei court placing it after Raffaele and Amanda have fallen asleep in each other's arms, though they would be up again in the night. Raffaele cannot vouch for what happened when he was sleeping. If the prosecution wants to imagine Amanda over to the cottage to witness/participate in Rudy's crime, they can imagine she did so without Raffaele being there.



If they're not going to accept his alibi because it interferes with their case against Amanda they don't have to use it to convict him.

Oh Kaosium.

We were discussing his TV interview – remember. It was only 2 posts ago.

'his alibi' - That's even better!

Come back Bill – All is forgiven.

 

[Desert Fox]

IIRC, John Douglas put meredith's Time of death at 10pm, from his chapter in 'Rudy Guede, Forgotten killer'.

Why? That's too late.

I agree that the time is really late and think it was much more around the 21:00 time frame.

 

[Bill Williams]

Oh Kaosium.

We were discussing his TV interview – remember. It was only 2 posts ago.

'his alibi' - That's even better!

Come back Bill – All is forgiven.

Platonov, I am beginning to like you. I withdraw all the ad hominem I have sent your way.

So just between friends: give Kaosium a listen.