Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

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Isn't there a video of them passing it around and then dropping it back down on the floor?

I think of it this way, would you do that with a knife if it had been found in the room, pass it around and then drop it back down on the floor.

I was thinking of the following while reading your post, One of the unknown profiles could be Steffi's. That's one of the reason's I would like to know what those other profiles are. If one of them is her's, that would prove contamination,

d

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Conti & Vecchiotti's analysis suggested at all the unknown profiles were male. Chris Halkides has covered this.

Nencini surmised (note: had no evidence, just guess from thin air) that one of the three was Meredith's boyfriend. He surmised that the other to were Meredith's "amica", who, acc. to Nencini, pass one another's bras around to be handled.

 

[anglolawyer]

I would quite like to know why the bra clasp was not collected with sterile gloves or tweezers on the first day, along with the rest of clothes she was wearing. What sort of training had Stefanoni received that told her it was OK not only to leave that stuff behind but also to have it all jumbled up with other stuff?

 

[AmyStrange]

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Conti & Vecchiotti's analysis suggested at all the unknown profiles were male. Chris Halkides has covered this.

Nencini surmised (note: had no evidence, just guess from thin air) that one of the three was Meredith's boyfriend. He surmised that the other to were Meredith's "amica", who, acc. to Nencini, pass one another's bras around to be handled.

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Women do sometimes borrow each other's bras. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. Men have been known to touch women's bras.

Anyway, even if it was any of the other handlers, it was a mixed gender group, right. In other words, the other handlers were both male and female?

That would prove contamination also if one of them is one of the profiles.

My understanding of forensic techs is that their DNA is on file, so if any of the evidence found had their DNA on it, that part of evidence could be eliminated as evidence,

d

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[Bill Williams]

I would quite like to know why the bra clasp was not collected with sterile gloves or tweezers on the first day, along with the rest of clothes she was wearing. What sort of training had Stefanoni received that told her it was OK not only to leave that stuff behind but also to have it all jumbled up with other stuff?

According to Machiavelli, leaving evidence for 46 days is standard procedure. The one glitch was 46 days later they forgot to collect the evidence proving a staged break-in.

That evidence Stefanoni said needed 92 days to cure in situ.

 

[anglolawyer]

I found this guide to crime scene procedure. It

was adapted from the California Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training's workbook for the "Forensic Technology for Law Enforcement" Telecourse presented on May 13, 1993

and is worth skimming over. As you run your eye over it, see if you can stop yourself saying, 'well, she certainly didn't do that!'. Take this for example:

Secure and Protect Scene

Take control of scene on arrival.

Determine extent to which scene has thus far been protected.

Ensure adequate scene security.

Obtain information from personnel who have entered scene and have knowledge relative to its original conditions -- document who has been at scene.

Take extensive notes - do not rely on memory.

Keep out unauthorized personnel - begin recording who enters and leaves.

(Cough, the lamp, cough).

 

[Bill Williams]

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Women do sometimes borrow each other's bras. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. Men have been known to touch women's bras.

Anyway, even if it was any of the other handlers, it was a mixed gender group, right. In other words, the other handlers were both male and female?

That would prove contamination also if one of them is one of the profiles.

My understanding of forensic techs is that their DNA is on file, so if any of the evidence found had their DNA on it, that part of evidence could be eliminated as evidence,

d

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Before we speculate on female bra borrowing habits, Nencini just said that the other profiles were **probably** from Meredith's "amica", well just because. There was no evidence except the unknown profiles and Nencini's ability to just make up stuff.

 

[Samson]

Before we speculate on female bra borrowing habits, Nencini just said that the other profiles were **probably** from Meredith's "amica", well just because. There was no evidence except the unknown profiles and Nencini's ability to just make up stuff.

Dan O suggested deliberate contamination from Raffaele's jail cell.
Predominant: Meredith
Present: Raffaele
Traces: Previous tenants of jail cell, male.

Has anyone a better theory to explain the community of citizens who loved that clasp? (Dan O asked that and no one answered)

 

[Desert Fox]

Dan O suggested deliberate contamination from Raffaele's jail cell.
Predominant: Meredith
Present: Raffaele
Traces: Previous tenants of jail cell, male.

Has anyone a better theory to explain the community of citizens who loved that clasp? (Dan O asked that and no one answered)

I think the contamination can just as easily be explained by incompetence as deliberate action. Unless we can prove deliberate action, I prefer to avoid that argument.

 

[Numbers]

Why is Stefanoni handling the clasp by one of its hooks AT ALL!!!!!

The constant refrain from the pro-guilt lobby is it is up to us to prove contamination. The reality is that it is up to the police/prosecution/courts to prove that evidence was collected in a manner which would avoid contamination.

Take another look at the photo. Stefanoni is handling the clasp and the hook. In the film her department took of this, it shows her turning the clasp over and over passing it from one hand to another.

Why is she handling it at all!!!! Add this to it being found 46 days after the horrid murder, and it was found in a place different from where it was photographed on the 2nd of Nov.

What does it take to get a piece of evidence thrown out in an Italian court? What does beyond a reasonable doubt mean? This is the sole case against Raffaele, squeezed right between Stefanoni's dirty-gloved fingers. Raffaele could spend the next 20+ years in jail on the basis of this.

And for his part, Machiavelli simply pulls out of thin air, an explanation for Stefanoni having a dirty glove - and it doesn't occur to him that this shoudl expose Stefanoni for what she is.

Napoleoni, at trial, admitted that the 118 Medical staff came into Meredith's room to examine the body - with no protective gear. Battistelli was said by an unconcerned witness to have also gone in to lift the duvet to see if the victim was dead or alive. Battistelli lied about that at trial, saying he had not gone in. Does that mean he risked that Meredith could have still been alive and potentially revivable?

What does it take to see this case for what it is?

The proper way to handle a specimen, such as the bra clasp, is to use a DNA-free forceps (tweezer) to grasp it and deposit in a specimen bag (preferably paper). No gloves, visibly dirty or not, should be touching the specimen. Unless perhaps one is trying to obtain a "miraculous" contamination event to help frame an innocent person (or two).

 

[Numbers]

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Women do sometimes borrow each other's bras. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. Men have been known to touch women's bras.

Anyway, even if it was any of the other handlers, it was a mixed gender group, right. In other words, the other handlers were both male and female?

That would prove contamination also if one of them is one of the profiles.

My understanding of forensic techs is that their DNA is on file, so if any of the evidence found had their DNA on it, that part of evidence could be eliminated as evidence,

d

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Because the forensic cops were wearing gloves, it isn't too likely their DNA contaminated the bra clasp. More likely, they picked up DNA from the environment of the cottage - such as the door handle, or other surface. Of course, if these particular cops had been handling surfaces bare-handed and later touched those surfaces with their gloved hands, they could have their own DNA on the glove exteriors.

 

[Desert Fox]

Because the forensic cops were wearing gloves, it isn't too likely their DNA contaminated the bra clasp. More likely, they picked up DNA from the environment of the cottage - such as the door handle, or other surface. Of course, if these particular cops had been handling surfaces bare-handed and later touched those surfaces with their gloved hands, they could have their own DNA on the glove exteriors.

Lets be honest here though. . . . . Something as important as the bra clasp should have been collected the first day. I think of it like the cops not pickign up all teh shell casings in a shooting.

 

[Numbers]

To show that evidence does not need to enter a trial only from the incidente probatorio, the special evidentiary hearing, there is CPP Article 507:

Admission of New Evidence
1. Upon completion of evidence gathering, the judge may order, also ex officio, the admission of new means of evidence, if absolutely necessary.

1-bis. The judge may also order, under paragraph 1, the admission of new means of evidence related to the documents gathered in the trial dossier under Articles 431 para. 2, and 493, para. 3.

CPP Art. 431 para. 2 relates to the documents (evidence) in the trial dossier from the investigative dossier and any defense investigation activities.

CPP Art 493 para. 3 relates to the same documents as CPP 431 para. 2.

 

[Numbers]

Lets be honest here though. . . . . Something as important as the bra clasp should have been collected the first day. I think of it like the cops not pickign up all teh shell casings in a shooting.

Are you trying to imply that "Doctor" Stef-phony was incompetent?
Do you realize that kind of talk is a serious crime in Italy?
Better be careful about avoiding a certain country if you have any planned international travel.

 

[Samson]

I think the contamination can just as easily be explained by incompetence as deliberate action. Unless we can prove deliberate action, I prefer to avoid that argument.

You answered DF, and you may be right.
Incompetence has a random signature, the bra clasp has a non random signature, and there is a precise explanation. DanO proposed a realistic path, and I like his explanation as the best proposed. All he asked for was a better theory that accords with the proportionality of dna, and the timing that preceded the discovery. Is there a better theory that better describes a means to keep a man who could never have touched that clasp in solitary confinement, and save a failing career? There is work to be done on connecting Mignini directly to this ignoble cause corruption.

 

[Desert Fox]

Are you trying to imply that "Doctor" Stef-phony was incompetent?
Do you realize that kind of talk is a serious crime in Italy?
Better be careful about avoiding a certain country if you have any planned international travel.

At least in my book, stupidity can be fixed, malice cannot be.
That is one think that I consider important in the skeptic movement.
I consider it important that we admit mistakes and work to correct them.

 

[Samson]

Adding to the above, what is being used to hang the defendants is the mass of evidence, and it seems reasonable to find one case of contamination tying the defendants to the crime, but probability and statistics can be used to sway a jury to convict on the impossibilty of two genuine contamination events uniquely connecting the required defendants to the crime.
Yes.
This is impossible, they must be guilty.

So we must find a means to reconcile the known fact that Meredith was killed while Amanda and Raffaele were watching films in his apartment. (that irrefutable digestive evidence).

Matteini confined because of the shoeprints, which is case closed and fair enough. She is just another puppet Italian judge who believes the infallibility of the prosecutor, except:
He was fallible, they were not Raffaele's shoeprints at all.

A triumphant family delivers the coup de grace, and looks forward to a heroic return of the innocent.

This is so disastrous for Mignini, and meanwhile, he has by confirmation bias determined that enough people, including himself, have bought the bogus staged break in routine, that the Italian people should be precautionarily saved from the return of a proper suspect in a grave crime to the community.

Within 24 hours, the perfect link to the crime, sex and murder materialises.

While there are alternative explanations there is no doubt, but I still like DanO's best, and it is not a conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theories are always uniquely crafted, but police tampering with evidence is commonplace.

 

[Strozzi]

Ladies, please help me understand something. I assume that women who borrow each other's bra wear somewhat similar size. Is that correct? Which leads me to ask if Meredith, Amanda, Laura, or Filomena were of somewhat similar chest and cup size that the bra of one would comfortably fit the other.

Additionally, under what circumstances would two friends/housemates borrow each other's bra? Is it done when one needs a certain color to wear under a certain color blouse?

I have searched my memory all the way back to elementary school and cannot remember ever borrowing a friend's underpants, clean or dirty. .
ETA: Just so there is no confusion - although my avatar is of a female child (Clarissa Strozzi, painted by Titian in 1542), I am an adult male.

 

[Desert Fox]

While there are alternative explanations there is no doubt, but I still like DanO's best, and it is not a conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theories are always uniquely crafted, but police tampering with evidence is commonplace.

Most police tampering is either not turning over evidence of innocence and/or shading their testimony. They rarely create evidence from the cases I have looked at.

 

[Samson]

And returning to the digestive evidence, Machiavelli deletes its significance by the absurd suggestion that because there is no statistical fit for Meredith being alive till 9pm, if she ate when attested to by her friends, she comes from an alien world.

It is vital to remind ourselves how ubernormal Meredith was till she entered her flat. She was healthy and happy, expecting to attend an education course the following morning, and with a close community of expat friends, a small duty to tend her "rockstar Italian boyfriend"'s dope plants, etc.

There is one condition that could prevent a normal descent of a healthy girl's meal contents to her duodenum, gastroparesis. But she was a normal girl, and this afflicts just 0.003% of the community or 3 in 100,000. Leila Schnepps may connect these probabilities.

(Probability of being murdered) times (probability of suffering from this symptom ridden condition but displaying no symptoms).

Machiavelli should consider that there is no progress for his cause by suggesting she surely ate before 7 20pm, but realise he must delay her eating.

 

[anglolawyer]

Ladies, please help me understand something. I assume that women who borrow each other's bra wear somewhat similar size. Is that correct? Which leads me to ask if Meredith, Amanda, Laura, or Filomena were of somewhat similar chest and cup size that the bra of one would comfortably fit the other.

Additionally, under what circumstances would two friends/housemates borrow each other's bra? Is it done when one needs a certain color to wear under a certain color blouse?

I have searched my memory all the way back to elementary school and cannot remember ever borrowing a friend's underpants, clean or dirty. .
ETA: Just so there is no confusion - although my avatar is of a female child (Clarissa Strozzi, painted by Titian in 1542), I am an adult male.

This subject (female members discussing their breasts) is so interesting it deserves its own thread!

ETA so I have started one