Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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What is, according to you, the relevance?

Was Mr Sollecito with Ms Knox or not on the night of the murder?

Is Mr Sollecito innocent?


I suspect that if you get any answer at all, it will most likely be in that odd code that is so strangely beloved. It would be lovely to get straight answers and arguments, but maybe the reason they're not forthcoming is that they can't be made with a straight face....?
 
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I see a diffused appearance of the prints F, I and H as if they were diluted with water at the time they we're made and not so much on tract Y. The tracts on the pillow case are from the same left shoe but of the heal and not the toe like these prints down the hall. Somehow the blood was removed from the heal prior to acquiring blood on the toe. Since we don't see those tracts fading out, it is possible that Rudy removed the shoe and washed it in the bathroom. The residual water is mixing with the new blood stain when full weight is placed on the shoe. Again, these are just my thoughts as to what could be responsible. Testing may confirm or rule out this possibility.





They Missed the whole print by the pink bag between the prints 2 and 3 in the hall and F in the living room. If they couldn't spot that one, how arer they going to see the minor marks left after H?

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Hey DANO,

I think you've pointed this out before, but where was the footprint that the police forensic officer was scrubbing clean? And is there any chance he was taking a legitimate sample of the footprint, and just erased the rest in process?

Do you know the spot on the crimes scene video where this is shown?

Do we have any ideas why that act of erasing a footprint was performed?
 
Oh platonov. Platonov platonov platonov.

Could you please clarify what you actually mean, and what you may or may not be asserting? Thanks.

(i.e. without all the odd embellishment and obfuscation)

You want clarification :boggled:
 
They won't be drawn on specifics, because every time one of them is specific, the innocencisti have a rebuttal.

Being vague and snarky is so much safer. You can never be wrong that way. Machiavelli is the only one with any courage. That's why they all hide under his skirts.
 
They won't be drawn on specifics, because every time one of them is specific, the innocencisti have a rebuttal.

Being vague and snarky is so much safer. You can never be wrong that way. Machiavelli is the only one with any courage. That's why they all hide under his skirts.

Machiavelli at least has the decency to outright lie about stuff.
 
It's Friday, it's late.

It is a bit Sherlock Holmes, except fiction requires all detail to be relevant.

Are you referring to the “curious incident of the dog in the night-time” .

One dog seems to have stopped barking and, if Raffy’s local paper’s version of his latest TV appearance is to be believed, another is whimpering.

They won't be drawn on specifics, because every time one of them is specific, the innocencisti have a rebuttal.

Being vague and snarky is so much safer. You can never be wrong that way. Machiavelli is the only one with any courage. That's why they all hide under his skirts.


Excuse me - no disrespect to Mach's fashion sense but if I want to wear women's clothes at the weekend I choose my own outfit.
 
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Did not Mignini say he thought it was interesting that Spezi knew both Mario Vanni and the pharmacist Francesco Calamandrei, who Mignini also accused of being the 'monster of florence'? (do I need to look that up, I'm sure I've seen it?).

And did not Mignini argue at Spezi's hearing the day he was released, in April of 2006, that Spezi was too dangerous to let go free, because he had managed to organize an international PR campaign all in his favor - and managed to do this from his prison cell?

Specifically, what evidence did Mignini believe Spezi was trying to plant, to incriminate Antonio Vinci? There must have been something specific, no? Because how could 'nothing specific' be seen as incriminating to Vinci, or to anyone else? How could Spezi "sidetrack" an investigation if its not done in some specific way?

And by the way, Spezi has never been convicted of side-tracking an investigation, has he? Isn't that among the charges that were set aside at some point?

In what way did Carlizzi's theory differ from Mignini's? Aren't they both theorizing that a 'satanic masonic sect' is responsible for the Monster of Florence crimes?

And wasn't Carlizzi convicted for defamation 10 years earlier for accusing another writer of being the 'monster of florence''?

Wasn't the self-proclaimed psychic medium Carlizzi repeatedly interviewed on Italian TV as an expert of some kind on satanic sects?


An overall observation, first:

The series of questions above suggest you are departing from some relevant points, those which you should consider if you wish to have a rational approach.

The facts that you should consider of most importance in a rational view, are: the fact that Mignini arrested Carlizzi, that he requested she underwent a psychiatric assessment, and that he publicly declared that she was a mythomaniac who talked while “knowing nothing” and she had no clue about the case.
Mignini had this public position and he arrested her; this is a fact, and it’s worth to have its implication drawn from a reasonable point of view.
For example: do you think Mignini believed Carlizzi? It doesn’t make much sense to assume, at the same time: a) that the Narducci investigation was based on Carlizzi’s testimony; b) that Mignini disbelieved Carlizzi, since he publicly discredited Carlizzi and arrested her; and c) that he went on with an investigation allegedly based on Carlizzi’s testimony even after he arrested and discredited Carlizzi.
This theory makes little sense. If you want to make sense something about it, the theory will become extremely complicated.

Also, some other facts that are worth consider on the part of a rational observer, are that Carlizzi’s theory was fundamentally different from the Prosecution’s theory, in that the Prosecution was drawing a scenario around Narducci, where Narducci was implicated as a criminal, whereas Carlizzi has drawn a scenario where Narducci was only a victim and it was Spezi who – in Carlizzi’s mind – became the person of greatest suspicion of being the “Monster of Florence”. In fact, Carlizzi pushed a conspiracy theory which she shared with lawyer and author Franceschetti, that is the “Monster” was a group headed by Florentine Prosecutor Nannucci and included Mario Spezi, while Francesco Narducci was an innocent young guy who was eliminated by his father and by Calamandrei because he was a good guy who wanted to leave the “sect”.

Mignini’s theory was very different; but in fact it was not Mignini’s theory, it was the theory of the Florence Prosecution Office, who was acting also based on the findings by the Florence Appeals Court. Presecutor Vigna and his deputy Canessa begun to investigate on Calamandrei and Narducci. When Mignini opened his investigation about Narducci’s death he only considered that a cold case to investigate the causes of death, on request of Narducci’s wife Francesca Spagnoli.
Mignini didn’t know anything about ties between Narducci and the MoF. It was the Florence prosecution office who advised him, they told him they had a secret investigation on Calamandrei and Narducci that was ongoing, and they suggested Perugia should connect it with the MoF file. So Mignini did, and he accepted the Florence “sect” theory as investigation scenario.

Indeed Mignini found huge amount of evidence connecting Narducci’s death to the MoF case. And he also found evidence that the body found in the lake was not Narducci.

The evidence he found about Narducci was so relevant that in fact even Judge Micheli – who attempted to dismiss the charges – wrote in his motivations that narducci was most likely involved with the Florentine criminal group.

Then, let’s point out, as response to your questions:
1. Mignini did not accuse Calamandrei. On the contrary, he requested the preliminary judge to drop charges against him due to insufficient evidence.

2. Mignini argued that Spezi was too dangerous to be released, based on a series of reasons. It is not true that Spezi managed to organize a PR campaign from inside his cell. In fact he organized several things, not just PR campaigns, but from the outside.

3. The specific object Spezi planted against Vinci – not just that he tried, but that he actually successfully presented as evidence – was a written testimony, which was physically presented to the police by ex-officer Zaccaria, but was written by Spezi himself (a hand written copy was found at his home), and it was Spezi who brought Zacaria at the police office in his car, waiting outside while Zaccaria presented his false testimony.
It is not the only thing Spezi did. There is also what he attempted to do: he together with Zaccaria, and thanks to a previous logistic help from Ruocco, planned to place six boxes inside Villa Bibbiani. The boxes were reported of in the false report presented by Zaccaria, their location was accurately described thanks to Ruocco’s indication, but the boxes were not found. Spezi and Zaccaria were caught while they were still lurking around Villa Bibbiani as they were spotted by the personnel working at the estate, thus before they could physically place the evidence. The police inferred that one of the boxes might have contained 50 Winchester bullets .22 caliber, which Zaccaria officially possessed but were missing from his car where the weapons were stored, he didn’t have them at home and were never found.

4. Spezi has not been convicted for “side tracking” an investigation? Well, first, he has not been acquitted neither. The Perugia prosecution dropped the charge of calunnia in 2014, but only because it was time-barred (and Vinci did not take part as a civil party), while there is objective and obvious evidence that he did commit a calunnia. He was anyway ordered to pay legal expenses to the prosecution.
But on the other hand Spezi was convicted of calunnia by the Appeals Court in Milan, on another calunnia case, which he committed in the context of the Narducci investigation, so we can say he was in fact found guilty of side-tracking the Narducci investigation.

5. I explained the differences between Carlizzi’s theory and the Perugia Prosecution theory. Now, what I know about Carlizzi is that she had been convicted of fraud about 10 years before. She deceived some friends to stole money from them. She was a notorious fraud.
I can’t tell how many people she accused of being murderers or Satanists, but I can tell she did so on many notorious murders, including known political murders like the Pecorelli case (where the former prime minister Giulio Andreotti was actually tried for masterminding the murder in Perugia, and Giulia Bongiorno was working as his attorney). Carlizzi loved high profile cases, and on those cases she would side more or less against the same “enemies” (Giulia Bongiorno for example will always be in the “evil sect” group).
By the way, Carlizzi did not talk about a “satanic sect” but rather about a “secret society”, she was one of those theorists that talk about “Illuminati” conspiracies and she had this theory about the sect she called the “red rose” society.
 
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Excuse me - no disrespect to Mach's fashion sense but if I want to wear women's clothes at the weekend I choose my own outfit.

That was a bit rude against many folks.
You and Vibio, guys like Peter Quennel, James Raper, Graham Rhodes, Peggy Ganong, Clander, Ergon or The Machine... they are not under a skirt... with all respect to skirts...
 
That was a bit rude against many folks.
You and Vibio, guys like Peter Quennel, James Raper, Graham Rhodes, Peggy Ganong, Clander, Ergon or The Machine... they are not under a skirt... with all respect to skirts...

I assure you I didn’t feel insulted.

Anyway it’s no secret that I look better in a LBD than you. :)
 
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I have asked this before of Yummi - Why, in any case, should the EDFs not have been handed over without asking, in pre-trial discovery?(...)

But the pre-trial discovery is the incidente probatorio. My question would be, why didn't the defence expert didn't even come at the laboratory to access the data, or set a framework about their requests?

Italy has no support at the ECHR on this issue.

"The right to a fair hearing incorporates the principle of equality of arms.

This means that everyone who is a party to proceedings must have a reasonable opportunity of presenting his case to the court under conditions which do not place him/her at a substantial disadvantage vis-à-vis his/her opponent.A fair balance must be struck between the parties. (...)

The incidente probatorio is defined by the law as an adversarial procedure in which the defence have whole equality of arms. They can have whatever they request.

But they must define what they intend to request.

If they fail to request something, and they realize later that this is essential to their defence, they need to present a convincing explanation to the judge about why they were unable to request it before, and why it is important.

The defence failed on all these steps; or better, they didn't even attempt to pursue this strategy, they weren't even interested.
 
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Ok. When Judge Nencini says that both bits of Amanda's DNA were found on the knife handle, is that an idiocy?

I don't know exactly what you are talking about, but ou should know this: I have never been really that interested in motivations reports (even less in narratives). When I talk about "trial papers", basically I mean testiomonies, and documents (such as the autopsy report for example).

And given that the knife was thoroughly cleaned, is not the presence of Amanda's DNA proof of her handling it AFTER the murder, not during?

1) There is no question Ms. Knox handled the knife also subsequently to the murder, this is certain. But the evidence of this is logical, it's because it's clean from blood and from Sollecito's DNA on the handle and because was found at a different location, not because of her DNA on the handle.
2) The DNA on the handle itself is not evidence that it was left there after the murder. The argument to maintain so was Planigale's point about the "DNA ratio", which is an illogical argument.
 
I don't know exactly what you are talking about, but ou should know this: I have never been really that interested in motivations reports (even less in narratives). When I talk about "trial papers", basically I mean testiomonies, and documents (such as the autopsy report for example).



1) There is no question Ms. Knox handled the knife also subsequently to the murder, this is certain. But the evidence of this is logical, it's because it's clean from blood and from Sollecito's DNA on the handle and because was found at a different location, not because of her DNA on the handle.
2) The DNA on the handle itself is not evidence that it was left there after the murder. The argument to maintain so was Planigale's point about the "DNA ratio", which is an illogical argument.

Nobody who argues innocence argues that Amanda did not handle the knife. . . .What we argue is that there is no real evidence that it was used for the murder of Meredeth Kercher.
 
Trial documents have nothing to do with inviolable laws of physics and the more fuzzy laws of biology, that prove innocence and non involvement beyond any doubt.

Your friends should advice you about how not being ridiculous. Their guilt doesn't violate any law of physics, and of biology neither.
 
But the pre-trial discovery is the incidente probatorio. My question would be, why didn't the defence expert didn't even come at the laboratory to access the data, or set a framework about their requests?

Italy has no support at the ECHR on this issue.



The incidente probatorio is defined by the law as an adversarial procedure in which the defence have whole equality of arms. They can have whatever they request.

But they must define what they intend to request.

If they fail to request something, and they realize later that this is essential to their defence, they need to present a convincing explanation to the judge about why they were unable to request it before, and why it is important.

The defence failed on all these steps; or better, they didn't even attempt to pursue this strategy, they weren't even interested.

Um, excuse me, but these tests occurred before the defendants had even been arraigned, so it makes no sense to say that they have waived any right to information easily provided, by virtue of some process conducted before the charges have even been finalized.

Anyway, the tests in question weren't conducted during a proper incident probatorio. I already taught you this, so pay attention, grasshopper.
 
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Your friends should advice you about how not being ridiculous. Their guilt doesn't violate any law of physics, and of biology neither.

Yes it does. . . .If guilty, they should have left considerable evidence in the bedroom where Meredeth was murdered and the digestion indicates a time of death where they could not have been there.
 
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I do think that some results are concealed; Mach dismisses the bis notation but there is no doubt that flags a re run. As TomB and I have said, you do not delete mistakes in good lab practice. The first run should be logged and the reason why it was rerun documented. The results if any should be available for review. (it may be as simple as she just dropped the first plate on the floor, or forgot to add a reagent, or (and we have all done this when micropippetting plates) - lost count!

If the sample was re-processed secretly, otuside the incidente probatorio procedure, then prof. Potenza wouldn't know about the finding of Meredith's DNA profile.
Yet he wrote a report about it. He knew about it. He signed the minutes of the laboratory work session. He was there.
 
I don't know exactly what you are talking about, but ou should know this: I have never been really that interested in motivations reports (even less in narratives). When I talk about "trial papers", basically I mean testiomonies, and documents (such as the autopsy report for example).

So you do not believe in "judicial truth". What's the point of having a trial, then? What's the point of a judge ruling on whether or not a break in was staged, or a real break-in?

This is complete and utter tripe, Machiavelli.

1) There is no question Ms. Knox handled the knife also subsequently to the murder, this is certain. But the evidence of this is logical, it's because it's clean from blood and from Sollecito's DNA on the handle and because was found at a different location, not because of her DNA on the handle.
2) The DNA on the handle itself is not evidence that it was left there after the murder. The argument to maintain so was Planigale's point about the "DNA ratio", which is an illogical argument.

This is a bizarre argument, Machiavelli, even for you.

There is no question Ms. Knox handled the knife also subsequently to the murder, this is certain.

Can you not see how you are contradicting yourself, using Amanda's DNA found on that knife as proof of murder?
 
Um, excuse me, but these tests occurred before the defendants had even been arraigned, so it makes no sense to say that they have waived any right to information easily provided, by virtue of some process conducted before the charges have even been finalized.

Anyway, the tests in question weren't conducted during a proper incident probatorio. I already taught you this, so pay attention, grasshopper.

Taught is a big word. You should spare it for a day when you find a place to fit it.
 
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