Jango
Graduate Poster
Simple: More than one shooter.
Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III
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Simple: More than one shooter.
Jango
Graduate Poster
Yes, a single person, male or female, could take out a head-of-state (why limit it to one country?), but so could a team of people.
Like these guys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Force
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEAL_Team_Six
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostage_Rescue_Team
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Activities_Division
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_Support_Activity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Special_Operations_Regiment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Rangers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Clandestine_Service
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Army_Special_Forces_Brigade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Services_Group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spetsnaz_GRU
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spetsnaz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shayetet_13
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duvdevan_Unit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamas_(Israel_Border_Police_unit)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JW_GROM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Boat_Service
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Air_Service
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EKO_Cobra
That's a sampling. Special units are highly trained people physically and mentally capable of doing extraordinary things. Their training regimen is comparable to that of professional athletes. They have military indoctrinated discipline. All they need is a target.
Willy Ekerslike
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And these are the teams that were at Dealy Plaza that day, were they?
Willy Ekerslike
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I think they're asking you to be more specific, not more vague.
Jango
Graduate Poster
1. As determined by who? You? Or someone else? Who are they (or you) for me to blindly believe?
2. Prove it.
3. Zapruder film showing JFK supposedly being shot in the back of the head and him then falling back, and to the left therefore resisting the stronger force in the equation of Bullet versus Human Head. The bullet found in the hospital makes it on the short list too. The 50+ years that have passed with several high-profile investigations and there still being tens of thousands of documents/pages with Information Too Sensitive For Declassification.
4. Yes, of course. However, the assassination of President Kennedy is far more interesting to question than the mundane things in life we don't know everything about but carry on regardless. The reluctance to contemplate anything other the maintained 50+ year old official narrative is interesting too. So is the virulent opposition who get quite worked up about any Alternative Explanation to a so-called Accepted Truth.
5. A) It is as monolithic as it can muster, B) Has enough of them through the years in key positions & C) No, but they can lie about them and distort the arguments about them.
Jango
Graduate Poster
That's what cracks me up the most. Saying "More than one shooter" is being specific. What people such as yourself want is an itemized and collaborated airtight rebuttal I.e. naming names and backing it all up with evidence that is accessible to everyone. While some people who argue in favor of there being a conspiracy take it too far and say absolute things, I can't and won't. Notwithstanding, I will though say that there is reason to question the mainstream accepted narrative events. We already know there is a mountain of information being purposely withheld from us about this topic, so once a person has become aware of the problems in the narrative, they are at a large disadvantage because they require more information to complete their query but that information will not be shared by the people being paid by the requester of information to guard the information from being seen by people like the requester.
Jango
Graduate Poster
It's not a Evil Things Happen argument but more of Evil Things Keep Happening kind of one. A repeated action. Not some anomaly, but a regular occurrence.
If you've ever read a history textbook more advanced than the versions floating around in public education, you'd know that to be true, which I know that you do. So where is this chasm of disconnect then?
Now you want to blame who? Have you been to Dallas? Only one shooter, you missed that too?
Oswald did it. Guess you missed it. Is this like you ancient alien nonsense, where you post a big pile of gish gallop junk, a bunch of BS, then leave, never to answer or explain the pile of nonsense you left behind.
Tomtomkent
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How? The question asked was if you could supply an alternative narrative. That better fits the evidence.
What we want is a narrative that names names and backs it up with evidence. Of course we do. That would be exactly what was asked for.
THAT would be more specific that "More than shooter".
If THAT is not your aim, then please explain what you DO aim to achieve with your conspiracy claim? What is the purpose if not to theorise on the shape and form of the 'actual' events?
Tomtomkent
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How regularly ARE Presidents of the United States shot in the street? Which other events KEEP HAPPENING that you show are connected by firm evidence to JFK?
Jango
Graduate Poster
I didn't limit the Keep Happening specifically to JFK, so I will not follow the artificial narrowing of my comment to specifically JFK topics.
Jango
Graduate Poster
I take the time to explain my position and then you quote me and do the very thing I said was funny. You crack me up. You want me to prove a conspiracy theory with information readily available to be verified. You want an airtight counter-theory to a very fallible accepted narrative. However, you ignore the very real obstacles in accomplishing that feat. Similarly, you ignore the very real reasons to question the mainstream accepted and recited narrative. You accept their version without question even though there is plenty to question I.e. the aforementioned mountains of withheld information, the problems the Zapruder film depict as well the bullet found in the hospital. Those blatantly obvious red flag are inconsequential to you, just things to be ignored or downplayed.
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
And this is the sort of thing that cracks me up. Saying "more than one shooter" in response to a request for a coherent alternative theory as to who shot JFK is about as specific as a creationist blatting "goddidit!" as a coherent alternative to the evidence for the TOE. It sounds specific, but it's actually a deliberately vague cartoon; you can nitpick at the evidence for Oswald's guilt, but avoid having your own "theory" subjected to the same level of scrutiny since there's no there there, no details to either verify or debunk. It's bulletproof because it's not simple, it's simplistic.
As irritating as some CTists can be, they at least have the intellectual fortitude to present ideas with some level of detail and evidence for scrutiny. You won't even do that- you take refuge in vague rhetoric that amounts to "evil governments do evil things, therefore they did this one"; and your final conclusion is "aconspiracydidit!" Congratulations, Jango- you're a creationist by methodology if not by dogma.
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
What evidence do you have for more than one shooter?
Willy Ekerslike
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I'd be happy with just one name, one fact, one provable point. Generalizations and assumptions and downright guesses don't progress anything. That's without even reminding you that if you want anyone to believe an alternative narrative, you have to actually present one, not just assert that there is a 'mountain of [unseen, unknown] evidence' that people won't share with you.
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Tomtomkent
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So bad things that happen aren't related?
Tomtomkent
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So, basically you can't provide a narrative or evidence, and it is real funny people still dob't believe you?
All I did was point out how to convince me. If you would rather make excuses then go ahead.
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
Huh. I didn't even notice that. Apparently, being asked to connect his "keep happening" theme to specific evidence that it happened with JFK, in a thread about JFK conspiracy theories, is an unreasonable demand for "artificial narrowing of my comment to specifically JFK topics."
Belz...
Fiend God
Yes, that's... that's not what "theory" means.
As what determined by whom ? You are using numbered responses without numbering the points in my posts.
Assuming you're refering to the "proper conclusions", you will notice, if you read my post again, that I was speaking generally. You know, that's how science works: you reach proper conclusions and you know you did because your rocket actually landed on Mars.
How long have you been researching this JFK assassination ? I ask because I got the answer to this "most damning piece of evidence" the first day I looked it up. Apparently you know nothing about ballistics and high-powered rifles, forensics or physics. Since I'm a nice guy, however, I will explain it to you.
A bullet is a very small but fast projectile. Although it goes really fast, the contact area when it hits is very small and thus it tends to penetrate rather than push. In addition, Force equals force, and if you expect Kennedy's head to bounce around in the direction of the bullet's movement, you would expect the shooter to experience an equal (or superior, if we count air resistence) force in the opposite direction. If you've ever shot a gun or seen someone shoot one (a real one, not in the movies) then you know this isn't the case. Furthermore, as the bullet travels in soft tissue, it compresses it, often causing a stream to exit with the bullet, and instead propel the head towards the gun. You can test it with rifles and watermellons.
So this is your strongest piece of evidence ? It doesn't even survive the most cursory examination, and I suspect any other evidence you name won't, either. This is especially silly given how easy it is to look up.
Irrelevant. One scenario is either true or it isn't. That it's exciting has nothing to do with it. But I understand: it's thrilling to imagine such a large-scale, long-standing conspiracy of evil, shady men and women who manipulate everything from the shadows. Real conspiracies are boring, right ?
But that is a total lie. There are countless government organisations and bodies who either never communicate or have very poor protocols for collaborating when they do. Have you ever done government work ? It's chaotic as hell, because there is no single vision, a lot of politics involved, and the money that's being used isn't the owner's money, but the faceless constituents, so there's little incentive to use it efficiently.
Where did you get the idea that the US government is monolithic ?
Evidence, please. You can't just make a claim like this and expect people to just accept it.
Perhaps, but then you would have to prove that they do, rather than just speculate about it.
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
Doesn't matter. Rare or frequent, the occurrence of other events doesn't prove some specific similar claim you make. "People do nasty things all the time, therefore you killed my wife." See how that doesn't work?
The part where you don't understand what a non sequitur is.
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