Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

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And watch them run like scared rabbits when asked for a coherent theory that fits the preponderance of evidence. Robert Prey had to suicide by mod so he would stop embarrassing himself.

Bobtaftfan, what is your coherent theory which ffits the preponderance of evidence?
 
I especially admire the latest Gish Gallop, most of which amounts to, "I think it should have been done differently." And apparently these are the gaping holes in the conventional story that compel us to throw it out wholesale, even though five decades of chest-thumping gives us nothing even remotely approaching a better explanation. Can't even decide who actually did it, why, or how -- you know, those "details" that the conspiracy theorists beg us not to pay attention to.
 
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What evidence do you believe has not been released?

What gaps in the evidentiary picture do you see and can those gaps only be the result of deliberate suppression?

1. A complete version of what the F.B.I. or C.I.A. knew about LHO would be one. Another would be plans known to them about assassinating President Kennedy. Another would be counterintelligence on foreign covert infiltrators, particularly on the Cubans and Russians.

2. Coverage of LHO is obviously a biggie. He was a known man, an admitted Communist sympathizer during an era where J. Edgar had free reign to wiretap and do black bag jobs at will and who was about as anti-communist as one could be.
 
50+ years and thousands of conspiracy theories later and we still don't have an alternative coherent theory for the assassination.
-- is certainly more than enough reason to question the CTist motivation and not take them seriously.

Jango, what parts do you want to question?

Hyperbole and one of the most overused deflection techniques which I have seen time-an-time again from rabid anti-conspiracists.
 
What documentation do you suppose must exist that will materially change the story? What about 50-plus years of waffling about by conspiracy theorists who get no closer to any better answer than "The official story is wrong!"

Why?
And why is the answer always just "Question the official narrative." Don't simply nit-pick away at details. Show me a more convincing comprehensive narrative.

Yeah, 'cause the government isn't being transparent. I've asked this before, why doesn't that bother you? Or much of anyone here for that matter.

Why not? Skepticism is the doubt of accepted truths, eh? Well, when a person looks at the Kennedy assassination, from top-to-bottom, the published version of events isn't pliable to what actually happened and what has been later revealed to true. The moment when someone's story stops being airtight is exactly when a person should push further and investigate. But that doesn't happen here, it is actually frowned upon, and apparently for no good reason other than "What you say are just coincidences." So move along folks, nothing to see here ;)
 
Yeah, 'cause the government isn't being transparent. I've asked this before, why doesn't that bother you? Or much of anyone here for that matter.

Why not? Skepticism is the doubt of accepted truths, eh? Well, when a person looks at the Kennedy assassination, from top-to-bottom, the published version of events isn't pliable to what actually happened and what has been later revealed to true. The moment when someone's story stops being airtight is exactly when a person should push further and investigate. But that doesn't happen here, it is actually frowned upon, and apparently for no good reason other than "What you say are just coincidences." So move along folks, nothing to see here ;)

See this is your problem. There is no such thing as an "airtight' story regarding historical events. You perceive the messy and uneven way facts and evidence come out as "proof" of a government conspiracy and/or cover-up. No wonder you see sinister conspiratorial forces at work throughout history!

Conspiracy theorists like yourself have repeatedly failed to demonstrate actual critical thinking and skepticism. You'll forgive us, then, if we seem a little impatient with the SHOCKING NEW THEORIES that inevitably turn out to be a lot of white noise mixed with bad history and hopelessly biased polemics against the US government or the "NWO" or whatever the all-powerful Bogeyman happens to be for a CT'er.
 
...
* Why Oswald didn't open fire when he had a much easier shot as the limo came up Houston Street.
...?
Go ahead, show some footage why it was easier. But visit Dallas first.

It appears you never went to the spot where Oswald shot from. I could have hit the car with a rock, or tomato. Copy and paste, the CT way to more BS.

Are you points original, or do they have a source. Why have JFK Conspiracy Theorists failed for all these years?
 
See this is your problem. There is no such thing as an "airtight' story regarding historical events. You perceive the messy and uneven way facts and evidence come out as "proof" of a government conspiracy and/or cover-up. No wonder you see sinister conspiratorial forces at work throughout history!

Conspiracy theorists like yourself have repeatedly failed to demonstrate actual critical thinking and skepticism. You'll forgive us, then, if we seem a little impatient with the SHOCKING NEW THEORIES that inevitably turn out to be a lot of white noise mixed with bad history and hopelessly biased polemics against the US government or the "NWO" or whatever the all-powerful Bogeyman happens to be for a CT'er.

Yes, I know that there isn't airtight historical coverage, but that's not what I was drawing from -- I said Someone's Story I.e. the version of the story as told by the government I.e. the one they'd recite today if asked is the one which I find fault in whereas you do not, which isn't all too surprising 'cause if I were to take the regulars here at face value then I'd be living in a world where the only superpower who is orders of magnitude ahead of rivals militarily and technologically cannot undertake covert operations, maintain secrecy or do anything considered morally wrong, particularly against its own, mostly dumb and politically ignorant people. That cheese isn't cutting it no matter what public relations angle a person comes from.
 
Hyperbole and one of the most overused deflection techniques which I have seen time-an-time again from rabid anti-conspiracists.

So, wait, revealing a narrative that better fits the evidence and explains the events of the day is a deflection technique, and not the prime function of a conspiracy theory?
 
Furthermore, the lone-gunman theory is not "complete." There are a number of things that the WC admitted it did not know about Oswald, starting with something as basic as his motive--you know, why he shot JFK--since he adamantly denied committing the crime (and his denial that was captured on video has been subjected to voice stress analysis and found to be consistent with truthfulness).

The lone-gunman theory also can't explain:

...yada yada, the same old litany of failed cliches, superficial logic,* and outright misrepresentation of facts that CTists have been reciting for fifty years. And I have no doubt at all that fifty years from now, the CTists will still be fingering those same comforting beads.

*The "why didn't Oswald shoot when the limo was coming up Houston?" thing is especially silly; as if having the car and the other people in it between JFK and Oswald would have made that an easier shot than waiting for the car to turn and present JFK's unobstructed back.
 
Hyperbole and one of the most overused deflection techniques which I have seen time-an-time again from rabid anti-conspiracists.
You accidentally put the word "anti" in there but I fixed it for you.

Aside from your hyperbole and deflection, answer the question.

What is your alternative coherent theory for what happened that fits all the evidence?
 
Yes, I know that there isn't airtight historical coverage, but that's not what I was drawing from -- I said Someone's Story I.e. the version of the story as told by the government I.e. the one they'd recite today if asked is the one which I find fault in whereas you do not, which isn't all too surprising 'cause if I were to take the regulars here at face value then I'd be living in a world where the only superpower who is orders of magnitude ahead of rivals militarily and technologically cannot undertake covert operations, maintain secrecy or do anything considered morally wrong, particularly against its own, mostly dumb and politically ignorant people. That cheese isn't cutting it no matter what public relations angle a person comes from.

Incredible strawman. Post a quote from anyone on this forum that even comes close to this. I bet you can't.

The "mostly dumb and politically ignorant people" part is a nice bit of poisoning the well, too. This is a common tactic I've seen employed by CTers time and time again. It basically is a euphemism for "Everyone would see how right I am if they were as smart as myself, unfortunately only a privileged few have the rare insight and intelligence that I possess." What an ego.
 
Well, when a person looks at the Kennedy assassination, from top-to-bottom, the published version of events isn't pliable to what actually happened and what has been later revealed to true.

"Revealed to be true?" Look at the Gish Gallop above. It's mostly supposition. "Why didn't Dallas police do this arbitrary thing I think they should have done?" How does that reveal truth? See, people who don't steep themselves all day in conspiracy theories rightly see through that kind of desperation. That doesn't prove anything to them except, for the most part, how badly conspiracy theorists want to be believed.

The moment when someone's story stops being airtight...

Stories are never airtight. Ever. That's why nobody buys into your notion of "transparency." It's based on an absurd standard of expectation. Good heavens, even your colleague bobtaftfan above is frantically trying to tell us that a conspiracy theory can't have all the details and that we should just be happy with a few vague memes. He admits his story isn't airtight either. Why aren't you berating him too?

There's your big problem right there. You preach about rejecting stories that aren't "airtight," but you apply that only to the conventional narrative. If anyone tries to apply the same standard to a conspiracy theory, then the wailing and moaning begins. Conspiracy theorists nitpick the Dallas police to death over supposed procedural errors, but when you try to hold the conspiracists to the same standard, the answer is, "But investigation is hard!"

Your readers see this blatant double standard. You want to tell us that we dismiss conspiracy theories because we're blind and stupid. In fact we see very clearly that your theories can't rise to the same standard of proof you impose on everyone else. Not even close -- you don't even have a narrative to test, just a grab-bag of assorted detractive complaints. The conventional narrative is still more airtight than anything you can show me. Hence it remains the most credible.

...is exactly when a person should push further and investigate.

And the conspiracy theories have had plenty of time to push forward and investigate. But after 50 years they're no closer to solving the crime. In fact, they're not even remotely as close as the Warren Commission and HSCA got. They're still wallowing around in vague suppositions -- again, your own bobtaftfan admitted as much. Fifty years, Jango.

But that doesn't happen here, it is actually frowned upon, and apparently for no good reason other than "What you say are just coincidences." So move along folks, nothing to see here ;)

There is nothing to see. In fact, it's so widely accepted that there's nothing to see that the conspiracy theorists themselves are telling us not to expect anything affirmative from them. They're telling us they have no obligation to provide a better narrative. After two entire generations of researchers, all we get is an undirected bag of random criticisms against the Powers That Be -- just like every other conspiracy theory.
 
1. A complete version of what the F.B.I. or C.I.A. knew about LHO would be one. Another would be plans known to them about assassinating President Kennedy. Another would be counterintelligence on foreign covert infiltrators, particularly on the Cubans and Russians.

What leads you to believe that the complete version of what the FBI/CIA knew about LHO has not been released?
And if there were no known plans? Would you accept that?
Why would either organization reveal information that would indicate the limts of their counter-intelligence?

2. Coverage of LHO is obviously a biggie. He was a known man, an admitted Communist sympathizer during an era where J. Edgar had free reign to wiretap and do black bag jobs at will and who was about as anti-communist as one could be.

What gaps are there wrt LHO that puzzle you? He was a small time individual with little influence and was generally staying within the law - the limited resources available to police and intelligence agencies would almost require that any checking on him would be cursory at best.
 
The "why didn't Oswald shoot when the limo was coming up Houston?" thing is especially silly; as if...

You don't even have to take the bait. Sure, bobtaftfan's accusations all contain a huge raft of unstated assumptions. But that's the point -- to bait you into a discussion of something that can never be resolved because it will never progress any farther than a battle of second-guesses.

And that prolongation is the lifeblood of conspiracism. As long as you engage them on these go-nowhere claims, they don't have to answer the hard questions such as who actually killed Kennedy. As long as it appears someone is debating them over something, they feel relevant.
 
...I were to take the regulars here at face value then I'd be living in a world where the only superpower who is orders of magnitude ahead of rivals militarily and technologically cannot undertake covert operations, maintain secrecy or do anything considered morally wrong, particularly against its own, mostly dumb and politically ignorant people.

No, Jango. People who don't buy into your speculative ravings are not automatically ignorant. As I told bobtaftfan, the argument "Evil things happen, therefore my specific claims are true," is not a convincing argument.
 
The lone-gunman theory also can't explain:

* Why Oswald didn't open fire when he had a much easier shot as the limo came up Houston Street.

This one is easy - and it was taught to me on Basic Training 29 years ago.

Targets that are getting closer require constant adjustments to your point of aim. Targets moving from side to side need to be lead. Targets that are going away do not.

This is why the Canadian Forces teach you to charge into the ambush, it is disconcerting to your opponent and makes it harder to be hit.

Fairly certin the USMC teaches the same lessons.
 
Yeah, 'cause the government isn't being transparent. I've asked this before, why doesn't that bother you? Or much of anyone here for that matter.

Why not? Skepticism is the doubt of accepted truths, eh? Well, when a person looks at the Kennedy assassination, from top-to-bottom, the published version of events isn't pliable to what actually happened and what has been later revealed to true. The moment when someone's story stops being airtight is exactly when a person should push further and investigate. But that doesn't happen here, it is actually frowned upon, and apparently for no good reason other than "What you say are just coincidences." So move along folks, nothing to see here ;)

No, skepticism is not such a strictly negative process- it's the rational weighing of any presented truth based on the evidence for it. Even by your own self-serving definition of skepticism, you can't apply it to your (and taftfan's) narrative, because you haven't presented one (much less any evidence for it) to be doubted or weighed, have you? The fact that you think you have no burden to even present a testable theory is just an example of the sort of double-standard methodology that CTists rely on so much to keep their "theories" as "airtight" as possible- you can't punch a hole in vague and careful nothings, nobody can doubt or question what is deliberately (and prudently) never presented. The idea, apparently, is to exempt CT ideas from any skeptical inquiry.

There's nothing about skepticism that forbids a skeptic from reaching a conclusion; it's not all about doubt. But first you have to have something to be skeptical about- by any definition of skepticism, even their own, CTists fail.
 
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Targets that are getting closer require constant adjustments to your point of aim.

Increasingly so. Unless a closing target is coming directly toward you, his bearing rate increases the closer he gets. So you either have to fire at a small, distant target with minimal bearing rates, or you have to wait until the range closes to present a larger target and then deal with a higher bearing rate.

Targets moving from side to side need to be lead.

Standing on the Grassy Knoll near the fence where Jack White said Badge Man is shown in his photos, you realize as the cars go by that it's the stupidest place from which to shoot at someone in one of those cars.

Targets that are going away do not.

The mathematics of the bearing rate reverse themselves. As the target recedes, his bearing rate diminishing, requiring less and less adjustment for each successive shot.

Fairly certin the USMC teaches the same lessons.

The War of 1812 proves the United States military had much to learn from the Candians. :D
 
There's nothing about skepticism that forbids a skeptic from reaching a conclusion; it's not all about doubt.

"Conclusion" conveys an air of finality that skeptics don't hold. My conclusion on this matter is simply that of all the scenarios presented to explain Kennedy's death, Oswald as the lone gunman is the most credible -- it explains the most observation with the fewest requirements or loose ends. Want to change my mind? Show me a scenario that's more explanatory and/or more parsimonious.

Not only are skeptics allowed to change their minds, they're required to when the evidence favors a specific new conclusion. Skepticism is about following the evidence toward the proposition that best explains it, regardless of the implications of that proposition.

Conspiracy theorists stumble over three points of that doctrine. First, they mistakenly attribute skepticism over a conspiracy theory to fear over the implications of the theory. Hence they hasten to protest that their critics are arguing emotionally. Second, they mistake the skeptic's imperative to adopt a better explanation as the need to flee in any direction from a "failed" expectation. Hence they apply their energy toward a detractive treatment of the conventional narrative, expecting that skeptics will be impressed. Third, untestable, open-ended propositions such as, "There must have been other gunmen," are more inferences than conclusions.

With regard to the second, the skeptic's migration is necessarily comparative. The skeptic wants to see which of all the available hypotheses works best. " Best" means "explains the most, with the fewest loose ends." Psychologists tell us that conspiracy theorists are preoccupied with rejecting the conventional, not with adopting an alternative. Thus the conspiracist approaches the question with a qualitative preference -- the conventional narrative is categorically suspect from the start on no grounds other than it is the majority view or has been promoted by some hated authority. The skeptic doesn't have this qualitative preconception. All candidate hypotheses start on the same footing and are judged solely on how well they explain the most evidence, and what loose ends are left hanging.

This difference is important. The conspiracist's partisan approach proposes that there exists some "natural" standard of proof that the conventional narrative must meet in order to be rationally held at all. Thus they focus on trying to show the conventional story doesn't clear this arbitrary bar, and thus must be rejected in favor of any other story -- even one that hasn't been invented yet. Naturally the conspiracist tries to set that bar as high as he can. And just as naturally, the conspiracist emphatically denies that his claims must meet that or any other standard -- the proposed methodology here is that if the official story fails, then some alternative hypothesis must necessarily hold -- by default, not because it has been established to some standard of proof.

In the skeptic's comparative world, no amount of detraction from one hypothesis affirmatively establishes any of the alternatives, if those alternatives do not have affirmative claims and proofs themselves. The comparison judges which of all the hypotheses has the most convincing affirmative proof. It starts each hypothesis at the same starting line and applies the same standard of proof to all hypotheses. In this way, loose ends -- which are inevitable in any happenstance investigation -- are categorically tolerable, but the number of loose ends in each scenario, balanced against the power to explain the most observations, become the parsimonious score for each hypothesis. The more loose ends you leave, the lower your score.

Even a hypothesis that seems to have very many loose ends remains more credible than a competing hypothesis that has even more of them. Or especially more credible than a hypothesis that is only a set of vague proposals and thereby can't be tested. Conspiracists wrongly believe that if they never state specific claims, they can never be refuted. On the contrary: if they never state specific claims then they don't even get an invitation to the party.
 
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