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The stupid explodes: obesity now a disability

It has been mentioned before, but looking at the energy density of foods, it also takes a surprising amount of exercise to burn a small amount of food. An hour a week isn't going to do much for weight, but it often is possible to fit more in without too much hassle. For various reasons, but chiefly because I was starting to lose fitness I decided to cycle commute. My (20km each way) commute takes a little longer than the car would but is more reliable - several times a year it is *far* faster and the first 8-weeks, when there were really bad roadworks, it was about 30-mins faster per day. I am thus using otherwise "dead" time but do have to factor extra food cost into the cost of commuting - it is still far cheaper and more enjoyable than a car, but most website calculators suggest it is about 700kCal a day extra compared to typical requirements of about 2000kCal, which explains why I do eat a fair amount for my size.

That's a great example. I work at home but try to spend 30-60 minutes each day on some exercise, either running, stationary biking or even just shopping wood or working in the garden.

Also don't underestimate the benefits of being a fidget. I find it very difficult to sit still and am always shuffling, twitching or wiggling about. Mrs Don on the other hand can sit as still as a statue for hours on end. There is some evidence to show that fidgets can burn a small but significant extra amount of energy daily.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41897-2005Jan27.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4211789.stm
 
I was speaking in terms of metabolism. Some people have much faster metabolism than others, and therefore, burn more calories. That would necessarily make it harder to gain more weight; in a simplistic manner.

But proper nutrition is not a simple matter of "eat less than you burn." That's pretty obvious. But the human body requires more than just "calories." It requires various different nutrients. Vitamins and minerals, as well as a proper balance of carbohydrates, sugar, and sodium. So all of those things also need to be taken into consideration as well.

In order to maintain a proper diet, one must do a lot of reading, researching, and speaking with specialists. (Nutritionists and doctors must go to school for this stuff. I tell you; it isn't easy. If it were, nutritionists would not exist, and doctor's jobs would be a hell of a lot easier.)

And that is just the nutrition portion of it. Nevermind the instinctual portion of not just simply reaching for the next cookie, as opposed to actively and cognitively choosing to expend more energy to prepare a nutritionally valuable salad.

People have the whole metabolism thing completely confused.

People who are carrying a lot of extra weight often have a much higher metabolism than someone of normal weight. This isn't speculation, they have put people in metabolism chambers and measured the expelled CO2 (which is where burned carbohydrates and fats are released).

If you drop 20 lbs, your body may require 200 kcals less per day as it no longer requires the same amount of energy to maintain that mass.

The only other tissue that is quite metabolically demanding is muscle, so exercise does help immensely with losing weight and maintaining weight loss, as well, the small amount of calories you burn while exercises offsets the calories you have lost from weight loss.

Here is a blogified version of all the things people get confused about metabolism, there is scientific research to back up every single one of these points.

http://dailyburn.com/life/health/metabolism-myths-weight-loss/

The 5 Biggest Myths About Metabolism

And a more scientific review site about the same thing:

http://examine.com/faq/does-metabolism-vary-between-two-people.html

Does metabolism vary between two people?

Yes, metabolic rate (the amount of calories burnt a day) does vary between people. Most of the time, it isn't that much of a difference and isn't causative of obesity (where caloric intake and exercise are better predictors), but differences between people do tend to exist.
 
People have the whole metabolism thing completely confused.

People who are carrying a lot of extra weight often have a much higher metabolism than someone of normal weight. This isn't speculation, they have put people in metabolism chambers and measured the expelled CO2 (which is where burned carbohydrates and fats are released).

They did this experiment on the BBC Horizon doco I was watching
 
Nowhere in my entire post did I ever say that, nor allude to that. That is a strawman of the highest order. (A person in a coma? REALLY!? Ugh. A person in a coma is in a TOTALLY different state than one not in one. You are literally comparing apples to orange trees there.)

I was responding to the completely assinine and ridiculous broad-brush claim that "it is easier to lose weight, than to gain weight." The entire premise of my post was predicated on the fact that everyone's body and body chemistry is different. For some people, it is incredibly difficult to gain weight, but very easy to keep it off. For others, it si very easy to gain weight, but incredibly difficult to lose it. How in the world this point was lost in translation, is beyond me.



Another strawman. Nowhere in my post did I make the claim that "eating doesn't require energy." That is a ridiculous claim that I never made.

-------------------------

BTW. No. You most certainly do NOT "burn more calories when you eat." Yes, eating does require energy. But eating itself does not, in fact, "burn more calories." There are a few foods out there that would burn more calories by eating it. But only a few. And if you were to eat only those foods, guess what: You would begin to starve quite rapidly within a few days.

And in fact, your claim makes no logical sense. The entire point of eating is to RESTORE energy. Not burn MORE energy.

What I think you just did here, was to confuse "metabolism" with "eating less." What happens when you cut your caloric intake as well as vital nutrients, your metabolism would drop. Your body would go into "preserve as much fat as possible" mode for a lean time. So someone with the intent to lose weight, should not necessarily just "stop eating." Or even necessarily to "eat less." Rather, they should eat more high-energy, primary foods such as fruits and vegetables. Especially vegetables. Eat less per meal, and eat more often throughout the day. This would preserve your metabolic rate at a higher level.

Someone who is morbidly obese, eats a HELL of a lot of food. And very bad foods. They also may be predisposed to having a very low metabolism. And they probably most likely have Prader-Willi syndrome, where they cannot feel "full." Most people have a trigger in their brain that can detect when their stomach is just beginning to stretch out like a water balloon. The morbidly obese do not have such a trigger. Therefore, they cannot tell that they have eaten enough. It's kind of like a paralyzed person not being able to feel a pin poking their toe. Or like unplugging a piece of electronics from a power source. That, in itself, most certainly is a disability.

The reason why such a person goes for really bad foods, is because they ARE high-calorie foods. They are full of fats and sugars. They naturally feel the need to eat those foods, because they are always feeling hungry all the time. It is the brain's natural reaction to attempt to prevent starvation, because it feels like they are hungry.

Those foods certainly pack in a lot of calories. The simple act of eating those foods, does not burn more energy. That's why they gain so much weight so easily.

Now, had you actually READ my post, you would realize that I stuck a little personal anecdote in there. A comparison between myself, and a good friend. I was illustrating the point that people are different. Individual humans are very, very different from one another. The point being, my friend would have to expend a ton of effort to gain 5 - 10 pounds. He has a VERY HIGH metabolism. Whereas, I eat a few slices of pizza, I gain several pounds of fat. I have a much lower metabolism. I would have to expend a ton of effort to LOSE weight.

You are taking up only one side of the story, and using that as a narrative of how every single human being on the planet works. You are wrong. You are dead wrong. Some people have darker skin than others. Some people have blue eyes, some have green. Some have blond hair, some red.

Some people have high metabolism, some people do not. Some people have acid reflux issues where a cup of coffee makes them sick; some people can eat a dozen habanero peppers with vinegar without the slightest effect. Each individual human body can treat foods vastly differently. As differently as there are different colored skin tones, hair, and eyes. As different as your fingerprints are from someone else's. So you cannot sit here in all seriousness and make the ridiculous claim "putting on weight takes a lot more work than losing it." For some people, that may be true like my good friend I gave an example of. For others, it is utterly false.



See my monologue above.

------------------------

(BTW, I weighed 310 pounds at my heaviest. Again, to illustrate your ridiculous notion of broad-brush-painting, my 310 pounds was able to scale a mountain up and back. I was able to swim a half dozen laps in an Olympic sized swimming pool. I was able to jog 5+ miles at a time. I probably did have a bit of a gut, but I was (am, but at a lower weight now) healthy as an ox. A weight of a person means about as much as a batting average for a baseball player: Not a whole lot. Especially when you take into consideration height, bone density, water percentage, fat percentage, etc.)

Prader-Willi is a rare syndrome and associated with learning difficulties.

I understand the point you are trying to make but this is a bit mis-directed.

You don't need to have a severe, rare, genetic condition to have a genetic polymorphism that may lead to a tendency to be overweight.

Variations in leptin, ghrelin, GLP-2 and other gut hormones could easily signal the brain that the fat stores are insufficient or the stomach is not full.

Again, your metabolism claim is also just not validated by science either.

There have been numerous studies where they have thought that treating obesity with thyroxine and trioodothyronine (basically T4 and T3), which are the master regulators of human metabolism and these really cheap drugs are only of limited use in a few special circumstances.

There are biological reasons some people have a tendency to gain weight, but the whole 'metabolism' angle is not one of them.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19737920
Thyroid hormone therapy for obesity and nonthyroidal illnesses: a systematic review.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22931855
Thyroid hormone and obesity

http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v24/n2s/pdf/0801294a.pdf?origin=publication_detail
Thyroid hormones and treatment of obesity
 
That's great. Getting back to the question I asked earlier, is your diagnosis of "slow metabolism" a physician diagnosis (for which you may require medication, you could have one or more of any number of conditions which require treatment and/or careful monitoring) ?

IANAD (and don't even play one on TV :)) but it seems to me that -if it's a self-diagnosis based on propensity to gain weight then it'd be sensible to get it properly checked out just in case. That way you'll know.

No, but I was diagnosed with acid reflux. My physician did recommend I pay attention to the condition, because it could get worse, and cause other underlying issues. People who are overweight or obese tend to have acid reflux. Whether it causes weight gain, or weight gain causes acid reflux is not entirely clear.

There are different types of acid reflux, each with different issues. Kinda hard to explain it, as I am not a doctor by any means. (I don;t even play one on TV! ;) )

But yes, there is a distinct possibility that it can affect your metabolism.
 
People have the whole metabolism thing completely confused.

People who are carrying a lot of extra weight often have a much higher metabolism than someone of normal weight. This isn't speculation, they have put people in metabolism chambers and measured the expelled CO2 (which is where burned carbohydrates and fats are released).

If you drop 20 lbs, your body may require 200 kcals less per day as it no longer requires the same amount of energy to maintain that mass.

The only other tissue that is quite metabolically demanding is muscle, so exercise does help immensely with losing weight and maintaining weight loss, as well, the small amount of calories you burn while exercises offsets the calories you have lost from weight loss.

Here is a blogified version of all the things people get confused about metabolism, there is scientific research to back up every single one of these points.

http://dailyburn.com/life/health/metabolism-myths-weight-loss/

The 5 Biggest Myths About Metabolism

And a more scientific review site about the same thing:

http://examine.com/faq/does-metabolism-vary-between-two-people.html

Does metabolism vary between two people?

Yes, metabolic rate (the amount of calories burnt a day) does vary between people. Most of the time, it isn't that much of a difference and isn't causative of obesity (where caloric intake and exercise are better predictors), but differences between people do tend to exist.

Oh, I didn't say that heavy people don't burn more calories. That is quite obvious.

But people can naturally have higher or lower metabolism.

~ People can have different naturally-occurring muscle mass. Someone who is genetically predisposed with less muscle mass, has to exercise more in order to gain more muscle mass to "catch up to" someone with naturally more muscle mass. (Things like the amount of testosterone in men, and how your body can process proteins, for example, tends to affect how strong a person is or can become. Women, for instance, are generally naturally not as strong as men. Sorry ladies, but that is a biological difference between the sexes. That is not to say that women can't be stronger than men, even naturally. Just a tendency.)

~ Women tend to carry more fat cells than men. This, too, is a biological difference, and this, too, can affect metabolism.

~ Some people can have greater or lesser lung capacity naturally. But like muscle mass, an individual can "train-up" their lung capacity. But not everyone can be a Michael Phelps or a Lance Armstrong. Lung capacity also affects metabolism.

~ Bone density. The more dense your bones, the more energy is required to move about. Luckily for me, I have dense bones, which raises my metabolism. Someone with less bone density, will be burning less energy walking for moving about.

~ Stomach acid. There is a strong correlation between high acid content, and body weight.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that people wouldn't naturally have different base metabolism rates, considering that no two human bodies are even built exactly the same. Even identical twins can be different.

ETA: I see you have posted a few sources in post #544. I have to get to work, so I will peruse them later on.
 
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Oh, I didn't say that heavy people don't burn more calories. That is quite obvious.

But people can naturally have higher or lower metabolism.

~ People can have different naturally-occurring muscle mass. Someone who is genetically predisposed with less muscle mass, has to exercise more in order to gain more muscle mass to "catch up to" someone with naturally more muscle mass. (Things like the amount of testosterone in men, and how your body can process proteins, for example, tends to affect how strong a person is or can become. Women, for instance, are generally naturally not as strong as men. Sorry ladies, but that is a biological difference between the sexes. That is not to say that women can't be stronger than men, even naturally. Just a tendency.)

~ Women tend to carry more fat cells than men. This, too, is a biological difference, and this, too, can affect metabolism.

~ Some people can have greater or lesser lung capacity naturally. But like muscle mass, an individual can "train-up" their lung capacity. But not everyone can be a Michael Phelps or a Lance Armstrong. Lung capacity also affects metabolism.

~ Bone density. The more dense your bones, the more energy is required to move about. Luckily for me, I have dense bones, which raises my metabolism. Someone with less bone density, will be burning less energy walking for moving about.

~ Stomach acid. There is a strong correlation between high acid content, and body weight.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that people wouldn't naturally have different base metabolism rates, considering that no two human bodies are even built exactly the same. Even identical twins can be different.

ETA: I see you have posted a few sources in post #544. I have to get to work, so I will peruse them later on.

Yes, people have varying metabolic rates, however, the research does not back up that varying metabolic rates, or rather a slower metabolic rate, are responsible for obesity.

Yes, I am very much aware that there are multiple variables between humans.

I did read your post before this, repeating it wasn't necessary.

It is difficult when science does damage to long held beliefs.

Maybe you might like the Horizon documentary that has been just on the BBC, What's the right diet for you?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/z2csfg8
 
People have the whole metabolism thing completely confused.

People who are carrying a lot of extra weight often have a much higher metabolism than someone of normal weight. This isn't speculation, they have put people in metabolism chambers and measured the expelled CO2 (which is where burned carbohydrates and fats are released).

If you drop 20 lbs, your body may require 200 kcals less per day as it no longer requires the same amount of energy to maintain that mass.

The only other tissue that is quite metabolically demanding is muscle, so exercise does help immensely with losing weight and maintaining weight loss, as well, the small amount of calories you burn while exercises offsets the calories you have lost from weight loss.

No offence to you, as I know you mean well, but I can't believe you even have to post these points.

Are people so thick they can't figure this out by themselves?
 
No offence to you, as I know you mean well, but I can't believe you even have to post these points.

I was surprised as well, but only since it's already well discussed upthread, so obviously we must already know.



Are people so thick they can't figure this out by themselves?

That's a different question, and I think key to building any public strategy for weight management: what do people really know about physiology of weight gain?

My own experience is that there is widespread misinformation, but I'm not familiar with any surveys at the moment. I'm sure we could locate some, and I'm sure the knowledgebase changes frequently, in response to recent industry campaigns and popular nonfiction books.
 
I was surprised as well, but only since it's already well discussed upthread, so obviously we must already know.





That's a different question, and I think key to building any public strategy for weight management: what do people really know about physiology of weight gain?

My own experience is that there is widespread misinformation, but I'm not familiar with any surveys at the moment. I'm sure we could locate some, and I'm sure the knowledgebase changes frequently, in response to recent industry campaigns and popular nonfiction books.

Fair point, but she ain't exactly rocket science.

Energy in verses energy out = If it is equal you probably won't be a tad lardy bum
 
Fair point, but she ain't exactly rocket science.

Energy in verses energy out = If it is equal you probably won't be a tad lardy bum

Yes, exactly. But that's not widely accepted as true, unfortunately.

Apropos: about 5 minutes ago on a healthfraud mailing list I was just called a "CICO Zombie," meaning: believing that 'calories matter' proves I can't think for myself, and the fact that I cite research conducted by/for registered dieticians means I'm an "authority worshipper".

Ironically, the person who does not "worship authority" included this link: [Debunking The Calorie Myth – Why “Calories in, Calories Out” is Wrong] - the irony being that the site is called "Authority Nutrition".
 
I was speaking in terms of metabolism. Some people have much faster metabolism than others, and therefore, burn more calories. That would necessarily make it harder to gain more weight; in a simplistic manner.

But proper nutrition is not a simple matter of "eat less than you burn." That's pretty obvious. But the human body requires more than just "calories." It requires various different nutrients. Vitamins and minerals, as well as a proper balance of carbohydrates, sugar, and sodium. So all of those things also need to be taken into consideration as well.

In order to maintain a proper diet, one must do a lot of reading, researching, and speaking with specialists. (Nutritionists and doctors must go to school for this stuff. I tell you; it isn't easy. If it were, nutritionists would not exist, and doctor's jobs would be a hell of a lot easier.)

And that is just the nutrition portion of it. Nevermind the instinctual portion of not just simply reaching for the next cookie, as opposed to actively and cognitively choosing to expend more energy to prepare a nutritionally valuable salad.

Of course people need vitamins and minerals in appropriate quantities. Who was arguing otherwise? Malnutrition can happen at any weight. It's possible to be obese and malnourished. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/malnutrition-obesity_b_1324760.html

I was speaking of weight, which comes down to a calorie balance. It's possible to eat mostly Twinkies and lose weight. http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html

Regardless of one's individual metabolism, which others have addressed, the only way to gain weight is via excess calories.
 
Of course people need vitamins and minerals in appropriate quantities. Who was arguing otherwise? Malnutrition can happen at any weight. It's possible to be obese and malnourished. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/malnutrition-obesity_b_1324760.html.

This is why when I'm asked about what is a good diet, I need to ask whether the person is trying to lose weight, trying to become competitive for a sport, trying to just keep generally healthy, trying to manage their Type I diabetes... the term is very vague, and often the situation exceeds my qualifications and I refer them to a doctor.
 
Cool strawman, bro.

What the hell is strawman about that?

The central point to the discussion is the normalisation of obesity. You can't possibly normalise something more than paying for any disability caused by it.

Not to mention, as I have posted before, normalisation of obesity is one the very biggest problems, as evinced by statements from (I repeat) the WHO and UK's chief medical officer.

People who are overweight or obese tend to have acid reflux.

I'm no doctor, but I do know that acid reflux is often caused overeating.

Also, if a person is overweight, it seems relatively obvious there will be pressure from all the extra fat around the abdomen.

In fact, now that I actually look for informed opinion on that, it's not just obvious to me:

The association between gastroesophageal reflux disease and obesity.

The relation of obesity, reflux and its implications

"The association between BMI and GERD complications was markedly consistent,..."
 
Tend to agree with Atheist. This thread has taken a bit of a normalising obesity stroll
 
Pointing out that calling people "stupid fatties" is counterproductive to the goal of reducing obesity is not "normalising" the condition.
 

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