Continuation Part 12: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[platonov]

Nice and slow.

Platonov;: is there any point to the post above other that your belief Sollecito is lying?

It would be better if tried to address the guilters' dilemma. If you believe Knox "spontaneously" named Lumumba, why then ANY prior questions to Sollecito about her whereabouts?

Or does the guilter dilemma include spontaneous uncoerced statements from Sollecito? If so, why were they not suspects as soon as Sollecito buckled and told them what they already knew?

It's quite the dilemma for your side, isn't it!

Platonov;: is there any point to the post above other that your belief Sollecito is lying?

It would be better if tried to address the guilters' dilemma. If you believe Knox "spontaneously" named Lumumba, why then ANY prior questions to Sollecito about her whereabouts?

Now Bill.

We are on the verge of a breakthrough here - lets not spoil it with all this nonsense.

Take a moment or 3.

Why did RS make these declarations - throw AK under the bus.

 

[platonov]

It has been interesting watching points of doctrine emerge and solidify.

Slaps upside the head

False memory syndrome

She broke

12 cops ferociously interrogating her in shifts.

Shoulda had a lawyer

Shoulda had a recording

50 hours of interrogation.

(List is not meant to be exhaustive but it might wear you out)

Fair enough.
Luckily some kind soul a long time back made a list of the reasons AK falsely accused PL as put forward on these threads.
It might save the noobs thinking time to have a handy cheat sheet.

Waterboarding
Concussion ( from 2 cuffs to head)
Concussion ( from cartwheels )
Concussion ( recurring since a childhood fall)
Convulsions
Trying to help the police
Injected False Memories
Internalised False Confession
Confusion
Hypoglycemia
Stoned - grass
Flashback from really good grass
Acting out a scene from '12 Angry Men'

& Amanda being Amanda, some sort of quirky Seattle thing.

But the reason I bring this up is the contrast with RS’s declarations on the 5th.
There have been thousands of posts on one issue; IFC/Wb. Many repetitive to be sure but still. Whereas with RS there has been very few. Obviously with this kinda white knight stuff the focus is on Britney but still.

Initially it was denial – the cops got him to say she might have gone out after he fell asleep.
Followed by – Its irrelevant. Not even original to Kauffer if you can believe it.
And finally some mumbling about Calendars.

Obviously lots of foot stamping at each stage.
But very little invention on the scale the nonsense posted to explain AK’s accusation.

Why is that ?Kaosium you have posted a certain amount on this issue.
What do you think? What caused RS’s lapse and why is there so little interest, given the coincidence with AK’s lapse.

Was he waterboarded or what?

 

[Desert Fox]

Talk about strawman arguments. . . . .

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Unethical and unprofessional behavior courtesy of ILE

But it can't be a reasonable inference, given that:
SNIP
3) the police would have no power to tell a tabloid about what to write on a photo caption
4) orchestrating the publication of a photo on a British tabloid would make no sense in terms of influencing the course of a trial, since judges and Perugians don't read British tabloids.
SNIP
9) "the police" is not an entity that commits wrongdoings, those are committed by individuals.
SNIP

Machiavelli,

Your point 4 sits uneasily beside the fact that the police brought suit based upon Follain's article in a British newspaper. Your position amounts to a double standard. Your point is weakened further by the fact that the Kercher family (all of whom are British to the best of my knowledge) became part of the legal actions against Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito, and it is difficult to believe that they were unaware of it. Given the worldwide availability of the image once published at the , the whole argument is specious. In Perugia's Prime Suspect" Judy Bachrach damningly wrote, "She had found the bathroom she shared with Meredith smeared with so much blood it looked as though a butcher had attempted washing up and then given up the task. Amanda was puzzled." I doubt that the good people of Perugia are so unconnected with the rest of the world that not one of them was aware of an article whose title included the name of the city in which he or she lived.

Your point 3 is irrelevant. It is the release of the photo itself that is at issue.

The cop who took the photo (let's call him Moroni, as LondonJohn suggested), was on company time, yet he was apparently acting at least partially out of a desire to enrich himself. Could one of Moroni's fellow officers have stopped him? Could one of Moroni's superiors have initiated an investigation as to what happened? It is difficult to escape the conclusion that Moroni knew that his actions were at least tacitly approved of by his colleagues and superiors, given that he was pretty brazen in taking photos without attempting to conceal his actions.

Let's return to the reason why I raised this issue. My point is that ILE has lied, has misrepresented, and has acted unethically (I might have also said unprofessionally); therefore, I trust their accounts of the interrogation less than I trust Ms. Knox's or Mr. Sollecito's. Even if an action falls into the zone of unethical (unprofessional) but not illegal, that point still stands. Therefore, your point 9 is both meretricious and is a deflection of the issue I had raised.

 

[platonov]

Talk about strawman arguments. . . . .

Nope.

There is only 1 strawman argument in the complete list - can you spot it

 

[Chris_Halkides]

revisionist history with respect to Perugia Shock

Oh no, this has been already documented several years ago.
But do you accept that if this is the case, then your assertion is totally disproven?

Let's try to not be ridiculous: Frank Sfarzo's blog at the time was in English, or at least that appeared his intent, and did not appear with the same caption and the context of the British tabloid, but rather re-framed within a pro-Knox propaganda message about how false it was, so it was something saying rather the contrary of what you blame the police of conveying through the media.

Machiavelli,

No, if there were an intermediate agency, the photo still had to be provided to them, as LondonJohn explained to you. Your argument is not worth the bother of laughing at.

With respect to Perugia Shock, you are to a certain extent rewriting history. Mr. Sfarzo became gradually more pro-innocent in his viewpoint over time, yet the photo was made public right at the beginning of 2008. This was before the accumulation of information about the ineptitude and unprofessional behavior of ILE became more abundant.

 

[Bill Williams]

Fair enough.
Luckily some kind soul a long time back made a list of the reasons AK falsely accused PL as put forward on these threads.
It might save the noobs thinking time to have a handy cheat sheet.





But the reason I bring this up is the contrast with RS’s declarations on the 5th.
There have been thousands of posts on one issue; IFC/Wb. Many repetitive to be sure but still. Whereas with RS there has been very few. Obviously with this kinda white knight stuff the focus is on Britney but still.

Initially it was denial – the cops got him to say she might have gone out after he fell asleep.
Followed by – Its irrelevant. Not even original to Kauffer if you can believe it.
And finally some mumbling about Calendars.

Obviously lots of foot stamping at each stage.
But very little invention on the scale the nonsense posted to explain AK’s accusation.

Why is that ?Kaosium you have posted a certain amount on this issue.
What do you think? What caused RS’s lapse and why is there so little interest, given the coincidence with AK’s lapse.

Was he waterboarded or what?

Can someone else point out anything in this which is not strawman?

 

[Numbers]

but the case of Knox and the cases of those volunteers are completely different.

Obviously, the false memories in the participants of the study were genereated years after the alleged event, when the volunteers where about 14 or 15 or even younger, not grown up adults of about 20 years of age.

That's what the false memory syndrome is all about. Furthermore, the whole concept is still highly controversial.
Greetings

{highlighting added to quote}

There may be a confusion regarding what is controversial about "false memory syndrome".

The retrieval by therapists (legitimately credentialed or not) of repressed memories of events possibly distant in time by various techniques sometimes brings forth false recollections. Thus, this aspect relating to false memories is controversial in that the assumption that the memories are of true events is often false.

The implanting of false memories of relatively recent events by various techniques, such as coercive interrogation, based on suggestion by an interrogator, especially upon exhausted or sleep-deprived individuals, is known to occur. In fact, it is this type of implantation of false memories that is the concern with the memory retrieval technique discussed above.

If you are aware of some other controversy regarding the implantation of false memory by coercive interrogation, please provide citations.

 

[Bill Williams]

Platonov;: is there any point to the post above other that your belief Sollecito is lying?

It would be better if tried to address the guilters' dilemma. If you believe Knox "spontaneously" named Lumumba, why then ANY prior questions to Sollecito about her whereabouts?

Now Bill.

We are on the verge of a breakthrough here - lets not spoil it with all this nonsense.

Take a moment or 3.

Why did RS make these declarations - throw AK under the bus.

What's clear is that that you are not going to address the guilter dilemma.

Another thing that is clear is that Raffaele tried to correct the record, within his own interrogation, not aware initially that they were accusing Amanda of a crime. Far from throwing Amanda under a bus, his book recounts how he was initially confused as to why this was even important, he gradually suspected that the police were accusing Amanda of a crime, then tried to clear up his initial mistake of confusing the two nights.

With all this said, Raffaele still harboured a suspicion that Amanda might have gone out. As he recounts in his book, he finally concluded that she could not have gone out on the night of the 1st - gone out, he means, without his knowledge, as he would have had to let her back in.

Otherwise, other than saying guilt-like things in your posts, I'm not sure what you've added. You most certainly will not address this:

That if they are asking Raffaele about whether or not Amanda went out - even before getting Amanda into her interrogation - then Amanda at the very least is a suspect; and perhaps both of them.

Yet neither were afforded lawyers nor was Amanda afforded a competent diplomat mediator translator.

Keep on with your own agenda if you like - no one can really stop you.

 

[Bill Williams]

but the case of Knox and the cases of those volunteers are completely different.

Obviously, the false memories in the participants of the study were genereated years after the alleged event, when the volunteers where about 14 or 15 or even younger, not grown up adults of about 20 years of age.

That's what the false memory syndrome is all about. Furthermore, the whole concept is still highly controversial.
Greetings

{highlighting added to quote}

There may be a confusion regarding what is controversial about "false memory syndrome".

The retrieval by therapists (legitimately credentialed or not) of repressed memories of events possibly distant in time by various techniques sometimes brings forth false recollections. Thus, this aspect relating to false memories is controversial in that the assumption that the memories are of true events is often false.

The implanting of false memories of relatively recent events by various techniques, such as coercive interrogation, based on suggestion by an interrogator, especially upon exhausted or sleep-deprived individuals, is known to occur. In fact, it is this type of implantation of false memories that is the concern with the memory retrieval technique discussed above.

If you are aware of some other controversy regarding the implantation of false memory by coercive interrogation, please provide citations.

Both Wannaknow and Numbers beat me to it. There are two things being talked about here. One is repressed memory syndrome, and the other is false memory syndrome, the latter of which is the one relevant here.

The problem with repressed memory syndrome is the relative ease in which even a trained an reputable therapist can actually implant a repressed, long-term memory. It's not that there is not some cases of truly repressed, legitimate memories being recovered - but in the absence of other corroborating evidence, it is often impossible to tell the difference between a legitimate memory being lifted out of someone's background, and one that was in essence planted by the therapeutic process.

False memory syndrome is very common in forensic settings - indeed, 25% of wrongful convictions which eventually are reversed have as an element confessions - a number of which the wrongfully convicted still retains the wrongful memory.

Memory is more plastic and "constructed" than the average person believes.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Saul Kassin on internalized false confessions

Saul Kassin's article on internalized false confessions rebuts the notion that the pseudo-incident must be in the distant past. He goes through both cases (including Billy Wayne Cope) and also experiments: "Overall, 69% of all subjects signed the confession, 28% internalized guilt, and 9% manufactured details to support their newly created false beliefs."

 

[platonov]

That didn't take long

Both Wannaknow and Numbers beat me to it. There are two things being talked about here. One is repressed memory syndrome, and the other is false memory syndrome, the latter of which is the one relevant here.

The problem with repressed memory syndrome is the relative ease in which even a trained an reputable therapist can actually implant a repressed, long-term memory. It's not that there is not some cases of truly repressed, legitimate memories being recovered - but in the absence of other corroborating evidence, it is often impossible to tell the difference between a legitimate memory being lifted out of someone's background, and one that was in essence planted by the therapeutic process.

False memory syndrome is very common in forensic settings - indeed, 25% of wrongful convictions which eventually are reversed have as an element confessions - a number of which the wrongfully convicted still retains the wrongful memory.

Memory is more plastic and "constructed" than the average person believes.

No. 7 on the list of 'strawmen'

 

[platonov]

Nor did that

Saul Kassin's article on internalized false confessions rebuts the notion that the pseudo-incident must be in the distant past. He goes through both cases (including Billy Wayne Cope) and also experiments: "Overall, 69% of all subjects signed the confession, 28% internalized guilt, and 9% manufactured details to support their newly created false beliefs."

No. 8 on the list of 'strawmen'

Keep goin' boys. We're gettin' there.

 

[Bill Williams]

No. 8 on the list of 'strawmen'

Keep goin' boys. We're gettin' there.

Platonov's trollish posts notwithstanding it would do folk well to read Kassim's stuff.

 

[Numbers]

Platonov's trollish posts notwithstanding it would do folk well to read Kassim's stuff.

Trollism is the doctrine or ideology of being trollish. Just a thought.

 

[Samson]

Just to keep up to date with the critical thinkers at PMF, and in fairness Mr Pink is linguistically articulate, as are many of them, he has arrived at this point in his case analysis.

Guede is innocent? I certainly have run across people who think that. I've always said that he is guilty but his alibi is more credible than Knox's and Sollecito's and there is no doubt in my mind that Meredith would be alive today if not for Amanda Knox.

But wikipedia says this.

"An alibi is a form of defense used in criminal procedure wherein the accused attempts to prove that he or she was in some other place at the time the alleged offense was committed. The Criminal Law Deskbook of Criminal Procedure[1] states: "Alibi is different from all of the other defenses; it is based upon the premise that the defendant is truly innocent." In the Latin language alibī means "somewhere else.""

So, I see there is some workshopping for them to do there before settling on a final theory.

 

[Strozzi]

Alibi, which means the person was somewhere else when the crime was committed, must be the proper term to describe Guede's whereabouts. He was somewhere else - he was in Filomena's toilet swaying to his tunes and relieving himself of a bad kabob - when the victim was murdered by someone else. Yea, yea, I know. His DNA was found in her vagina and the inside of his fingers were badly sliced when the knife slipped in his grip and he didn't summon help and he went dancing at the disco later that night and he fled the country a day later and he was detained by police in Milan a week or so earlier with a laptop stolen fron a Perugia lawyer's office where the thief threw a brick through an upper window and climbed up the outside of the building to gain entry. But the authorities had already publicly committed to their Amanda story and publicly pronounced "case closed" and they couldn't unwind that.

 

[Welshman]

What "media" are you talking about?

Please tell us: name the Italian magazines or newspapers where that image ever appeared before or during the trial.

Thanks in advance.

This is an article from the Daily Mail showing the picture being used by the media http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-scene-reveal-apartment-bloodbath-horror.html

 

[Desert Fox]

Alibi, which means the person was somewhere else when the crime was committed, must be the proper term to describe Guede's whereabouts. He was somewhere else - he was in Filomena's toilet swaying to his tunes and relieving himself of a bad kabob - when the victim was murdered by someone else. Yea, yea, I know. His DNA was found in her vagina and the inside of his fingers were badly sliced when the knife slipped in his grip and he didn't summon help and he went dancing at the disco later that night and he fled the country a day later and he was detained by police in Milan a week or so earlier with a laptop stolen fron a Perugia lawyer's office where the thief threw a brick through an upper window and climbed up the outside of the building to gain entry. But the authorities had already publicly committed to their Amanda story and they couldn't unwind that.

Guede's alibi is a better excuse than "We were together doing what young couples do?"

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Any predictions or analysis of Raffaele’s impending court case next week? Apologies if I have missed any recent posts covering this.