Continuation Part 12: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Excerpts from the Guide on Article 6 relating to the media and a "virulent press campaign". {emphasis added}

223. In a democratic society, severe comments by the press are sometimes inevitable in cases concerning public interest (Viorel Burzo v. Romania, § 160; Akay v. Turkey (dec.).

224. A virulent press campaign can, however, adversely affect the fairness of a trial by influencing public opinion and, consequently, jurors called upon to decide the guilt of an accused (Kuzmin v Russia, § 62). What is decisive is not the subjective apprehensions of the suspect concerning the absence of prejudice required of the trial courts, however understandable, but whether, in the particular circumstances of the case, his fears can be held to be objectively justified (see Włoch v. Poland (dec.), Daktaras v. Lithuania (dec.), Priebke v. Italy (dec.); and Mustafa Kamal Mustafa (Abu Hamza) (no. 1) v. the United Kingdom (dec.), §§ 37-40, concerning the effect of press coverage on the impartiality of the trial court).

225. National courts which are entirely composed of professional judges generally possess, unlike members of a jury, appropriate experience and training enabling them to resist any outside influence (Craxi v. Italy (no. 1), § 104); Mircea v. Romania, § 75).

226. The publication of photographs of suspects does not in itself breach the presumption of innocence (Y.B. and Others v. Turkey, § 47). Broadcasting of the suspect’s images on television may in certain circumstances raise an issue under Article 6 § 2 (Rupa v. Romania (no. 1), § 232).
 
Such was the grip their crappy theory had over them. What was it that convinced them of Lumumba's involvement? What was the convincer, as the con artists call it? I believe it was the neat pattern apparently made by the texts and calls and of course the axiom that it had to be someone Amanda knew reasonably well.

Amanda's statements. Lest we forget.
 
Amanda's statements. Lest we forget.

Actually, if you recall, it was the police's misinterpretation of Amanda's text message to Lumamba saying "see you later". The police suspected Lumamba well before they abused Amanda into falsely implicating him by giving her false information and a highly suggestive interview. Which is why the suggestions that the police gave her implicated Lumamba.

This seems to be a stumbling block for you. All of the known science on psychology and memory says this is a common problem with suggestive interviews. And the Italian police used the Reid technique, which is actually much more forceful and prone to false confessions.

Would you like to comment on post #1891 in this thread? It links to a peer reviewed scientific journal article from the highest ranked empirical journal in psychology. In their study 70% of the participants had false memories of committing a crime.

Remain civil and polite, and refrain from personalising your comments
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Agatha
 
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Actually, if you recall, it was the police's misinterpretation of Amanda's text message to Lumamba saying "see you later". The police suspected Lumamba well before they abused Amanda into falsely implicating him by giving her false information and a highly suggestive interview. Which is why the suggestions that the police gave her implicated Lumamba.

This seems to be a stumbling block for you. All of the known science on psychology and memory says this is a common problem with suggestive interviews. And the Italian police used the Reid technique, which is actually much more forceful and prone to false confessions.

Would you like to comment on post #1891 in this thread? It links to a peer reviewed scientific journal article from the highest ranked empirical journal in psychology. In their study 70% of the participants had false memories of committing a crime.

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Seems there is no way for police to question witnesses since they always induce false memories.
 
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Seems there is no way for police to question witnesses since they always induce false memories.

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To remove response to moderated content

If they want to question witnesses, tsig, they can do it at a mutually convenient time, during the day but only when they really believe the witnesses are witnesses and they are not tired and they get regular breaks and certainly not for 50 plus hours over four days having tapped their phones after senior officers within minutes of meeting them had decided they were suspects.

If they are suspects, tsig, then they get lawyers straightaway - no fiddling about, no posturing, no nonsense, no manipulation and no assaults.

That way, everything is fine. Simple, isn't it, tsig?
 
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Check out Hugo below in reply to Sallyoo

Dear old Hugo's been following our discussions and he's taking stuff on board. Almost enough for a bare passing grade. Almost.

Come on Hugo! Go and read about the Committee of Ministers. Look here:

http://caselaw.echr.globe24h.com/0/...-of-dorigo-against-italy-81277-33286-96.shtml

I know you still have to refer to "the killers" right now coz that's like your little club thing you've got going on there, but you're really getting the hang of this aren't you? You can do it, Hugo!

I love how you've started to use our stuff to temper the wild excesses of the lunatics!

Sallyoo wrote:

"The absolute most which can be hoped for (if there is any case which the ECtHR agrees to look at) is Knox getting a few dollars 'compensation' and a slap on the wrist for the questura!

If she does get any money awarded, I hope she passes it on to Lumumba."

Hugo wrote:

"The money's only given for legal costs, as a rule. All you see in the court's rulings is the fiscal compensation, because further redress by the country affected is not the court's business, but national law tends to require a retrial and Italy does have a law to that effect. That's what people are usually angling for.

But the calunnia will become a side issue if, as is quite likely, the killers apply in the murder case as well and the cases are bundled as one. The court might be interested in giving it a hearing if they think it raises issues that could usefully be clarified with a ruling, but that doesn't mean the applicants would succeed."
 
A peer reviewed scientific study published in Psychological Science, the highest ranked empirical journal in psychology, found that in the context of a highly suggestive interview, people will quite readily generate "rich false memories" of committing a crime.

70% of the participants in the empirical study were classified as having false memories of committing a crime.

http://m.pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2015/01/14/0956797614562862.abstract

More about this here:

http://www.psychologicalscience.org...hey-committed-a-crime-they-dont-remember.html
 
It's perfectly plausible (and indeed probable in my view) that the person within the police/PM's office who leaked these photos used a photo agency as an intermediary. After all, suppose that an Italian public official working on this case - let's call him Moroni - realises that there is a salacious appetite for the lurid details of this case among the UK tabloid press in particular. Moroni realises he can make a tidy bit of baksheesh selling lurid-looking photos to which he has access, plus he realises he can also help poison UK public opinion in his department's favour by doing so.

So what does Moroni do? He doesn't know the photo editors on the various UK newspapers. Moreover, he very probably wants to insulate himself from any direct negotiations - it might be embarrassing (to say the very least) if he were directly linked to the sale. So Moroni contacts a UK photo agency and says he has some juicy photos that he thinks the UK tabloids would be very interested in buying. He negotiates a percentage deal with that agency, and the agency then does the sort of thing it knows very well how to do: it calls round all the UK tabloids and offers the photos for sale. It takes the highest offer - the Mail in this case - and takes the fee, a large chunk of which it passes back to Moroni. Job done.






Agreed. And if the police/PM truly thought that those K-M aftermath photos were in any way relevant or useful to the investigation, then they are total morons. So, either way, they are somewhat damned, aren't they.......

Moroni, heh. :)

I'm still trying to think of another use for those photos, perhaps taking them so they can show the owner of the cottage what a mess they made in the bathroom? Then tell them to bill the Sollecitos for cleaning?
 
Matthew Best said:
A peer reviewed scientific study published in Psychological Science, the highest ranked empirical journal in psychology, found that in the context of a highly suggestive interview, people will quite readily generate "rich false memories" of committing a crime.

70% of the participants in the empirical study were classified as having false memories of committing a crime.

http://m.pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2015/01/14/0956797614562862.abstract

More about this here:

http://www.psychologicalscience.org...hey-committed-a-crime-they-dont-remember.html

Joseph J. Dick Jr of the Norfolk Four was convinced that he committed rape and murder so well that he went to court as a witness against other defendants believing that he committed the crime.
 
Here are excerpts from the Guide on Article 6 relating to statements from public officials; arguably the Nov. 6, 2007 press conference by the Chief of Police of Perugia violated these standards of ECHR law, which Italy is obligated to follow.

220. The presumption of innocence may be infringed not only by a judge or court but also by other public authorities (Allenet de Ribemont v. France, § 36; Daktaras v. Lithuania, § 42; Petyo Petkov v. Bulgaria, § 91). Article 6 § 2 prohibits statements by public officials about pending criminal investigations which encourage the public to believe the suspect guilty and prejudge the assessment of the facts by the competent judicial authority (Ismoilov and Others v. Russia, § 161; Butkevicius v. Lithuania, § 53).

221. The principle of presumption of innocence does not prevent the authorities from informing the public about criminal investigations in progress, but it requires that they do so with all the discretion and circumspection necessary if the presumption of innocence is to be respected (Fatullayev v. Azerbaijan, § 159; Allenet de Ribemont v. France, § 38; Garycki v. Poland, § 69).

222. The Court has emphasised the importance of the choice of words by public officials in their statements before a person has been tried and found guilty of an offence (Daktaras v. Lithuania, § 41; Arrigo and Vella v. Malta (dec.); Khuzhin and Others v. Russia, § 94).

I know a certain poster has in the past argued that we cannot know how judges will find a case. I was watching "48 hours - murder in Alaska" and one of the items presented by the prosecution, namely the movie "The Last Seduction" and I thought to myself "Grounds for reversal of appeal" as soon as presented if convicted. I was right and the conviction was overturned. With an understanding of a legal system, we can be pretty sure as far as what will overturn a conviction (Yes, I realize that the ECHR is more complex than that)
 
Sallyoo wrote:

"The absolute most which can be hoped for (if there is any case which the ECtHR agrees to look at) is Knox getting a few dollars 'compensation' and a slap on the wrist for the questura!

If she does get any money awarded, I hope she passes it on to Lumumba."

Lol. Absolute cluelessness.
 
Seems there is no way for police to question witnesses since they always induce false memories.

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To remove response to moderated content.

Is this your way of saying you have no response to the peer reviewed journal article I linked to in post #1891? There are well-established interview techniques that are not abusive and not aggressively suggestive which do not induce false memories. Do you actually want to read about those or is your question rhetorical? You have started with an iron-clad assumption that false confessions and false memory induction is impossible, which all of the known science on psychology and memory shows is wrong. Until you become a better critical thinker and relax your incorrect assumptions on the nature of psychology and memory (assumptions that are known to be wrong), you will be incapable of forming a correct opinion with respect to this case.

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To remove response to response to moderated content.


You did post two sentences rather than one this time, so there is hope for you yet, tsig.
 
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A peer reviewed scientific study published in Psychological Science, the highest ranked empirical journal in psychology, found that in the context of a highly suggestive interview, people will quite readily generate "rich false memories" of committing a crime.

70% of the participants in the empirical study were classified as having false memories of committing a crime.


but the case of Knox and the cases of those volunteers are completely different.

Obviously, the false memories in the participants of the study were genereated years after the alleged event, when the volunteers where about 14 or 15 or even younger, not grown up adults of about 20 years of age.

That's what the false memory syndrome is all about. Furthermore, the whole concept is still highly controversial.

Greetings
 
but the case of Knox and the cases of those volunteers are completely different.

Obviously, the false memories in the participants of the study were genereated years after the alleged event, when the volunteers where about 14 or 15 or even younger, not grown up adults of about 20 years of age.

That's what the false memory syndrome is all about. Furthermore, the whole concept is still highly controversial.

Greetings
Wannaknow, what was the exact purpose of accusing Lumumba?
Consider that she knows for sure he runs a pub and it was open while she is supposedly framing him. She can regard it as quite certain he has an alibi.

Consider these two facts suggest she is not sure of anything during this interrogation.
Remember that she will not have forgotten anything if she was at the cottage, and will under no circumstances tell a known untruth .

It is a necessary condition for the crime of Calunnia that it is a known untruth.
 
but the case of Knox and the cases of those volunteers are completely different.

Obviously, the false memories in the participants of the study were genereated years after the alleged event, when the volunteers where about 14 or 15 or even younger, not grown up adults of about 20 years of age.

That's what the false memory syndrome is all about. Furthermore, the whole concept is still highly controversial.

Greetings

Wannaknow,
The concept is not highly controversial. It has been a long held belief in the pychology community that it is a real phenomenon. This study simply proves that it can be induced in a controlled experimental environment.

The volunteers were college students of approximately the same age as Amanda Knox. The astounding thing about this experiment is that one can induce false memories in people of approximately 20 years of age (like Amanda was at the time Rudy killed Meredith Kercher) of criminal events that occurred years in the past! Imagine how much easier it would be to generate false memories in a non-controlled interrogation environment, where you had a friend and roommate who was actually murdered a few days prior, you were sleep deprived and confused, the police were being abusive (and they were not scientists bound by professional experimental ethics), and you were alone in a foreign country where you didn't speak the language well!

I agree there was a difference between Knox's situation and the volunteers. Knox was in a much, much more stressful and abusive scenario, so it would be much easier to induce a false memory in her than in a controlled scientific scenario.

Thank you for your input Wannaknow. It's crazy how all of the science coming out shows that the evidence "against" Amanda Knox actually strongly points to her innocence upon closer examination. Those loony conspiracy theorists over at TJMK and PMF must be in hysterics every time a new scientific journal article is published, for fear they will have another world renowned scientist or scientific study to smear and discredit. It must be hard for them to keep up with all these scientific facts!

By the way, have you read Peter Gill's new book? You are a new poster here it seems, so you may have missed it. He is the guy that invented the DNA analysis technique used on the knife blade in this case. The book is titled "Misleading DNA Evidence: Reasons for Miscarriages of Justice." In it, he devotes an entire chapter to the faulty and misleading DNA evidence used to convict Amanda and Raffaele. One of the founding fathers of DNA forensic science literally uses this case as THE textbook example of misleading and false DNA evidence! Crazy!

I'm sure you'll come around to the innocence side shortly once you actually review the science and read the opinions of all of the experts who have examined the evidence in this case.
 
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but the case of Knox and the cases of those volunteers are completely different.

Obviously, the false memories in the participants of the study were genereated years after the alleged event, when the volunteers where about 14 or 15 or even younger, not grown up adults of about 20 years of age.

That's what the false memory syndrome is all about. Furthermore, the whole concept is still highly controversial.

Greetings

How about Peter Reilly?
 
but the case of Knox and the cases of those volunteers are completely different.

Obviously, the false memories in the participants of the study were genereated years after the alleged event, when the volunteers where about 14 or 15 or even younger, not grown up adults of about 20 years of age.

That's what the false memory syndrome is all about. Furthermore, the whole concept is still highly controversial.

Greetings

There is a misstatement in this post.

The false memories were not generated years after the alleged event, because the event never happened. The false memories where generated contemporaneously with the experiment on the college-age volunteers.

Here is the abstract of a different study on false memory, using college students as subjects, and sleep deprivation:

Abstract

Many studies have investigated factors that affect susceptibility to false memories. However, few have investigated the role of sleep deprivation in the formation of false memories, despite overwhelming evidence that sleep deprivation impairs cognitive function. We examined the relationship between self-reported sleep duration and false memories and the effect of 24 hr of total sleep deprivation on susceptibility to false memories. We found that under certain conditions, sleep deprivation can increase the risk of developing false memories. Specifically, sleep deprivation increased false memories in a misinformation task when participants were sleep deprived during event encoding, but did not have a significant effect when the deprivation occurred after event encoding. These experiments are the first to investigate the effect of sleep deprivation on susceptibility to false memories, which can have dire consequences.

Sleep Deprivation and False Memories
Steven J. Frenda1
Lawrence Patihis
http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2014/07/15/0956797614534694.abstracte Patihis1
Elizabeth F. Loftus1
Holly C. Lewis2
Kimberly M. Fenn2
1Department of Psychology and Social Behavior, University of California, Irvine
2Department of Psychology, Michigan State University
Steven J. Frenda, Department of Psychology and Social Behavior, School of Social Ecology, 4201 Social & Behavioral Sciences Gateway, Irvine, CA 92697-7085 E-mail:*sfrenda@uci.edu

A comment from another false memory expert on the study:

Assistant professor Henry Otgaar, an eyewitness and false memory expert at Maastricht University in the Netherlands, praised Frenda's study for how its experiments approximated real-world situations.

"This study shows that another risk factor for false memory formation is sleep deprivation," wrote Otgaar in an email to HuffPost. "Although this was an expected result, it is troubling -- not only for witnesses, but also for suspects."

Based on research like Frenda's, Otgaar thinks that the legal system should be very interested in how many times suspects or witnesses were interrogated, as well as how much sleep they had gotten before and after the incident.*Simple exhaustion, not criminal culpability, could be to blame for someone cracking under the pressure of an intense interrogation, explained Otgaar.

"Consider the following: a suspect is sleep-deprived and interrogated by a police officer," Otgaar hypothesized. "Two days later, he is asked about what they discussed during the first interrogation. It is highly possible that the suspect gives inconsistent answers (because of false memories) and then is seen as unreliable."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/28/sleep-deprivation-false-memories_n_5624176.html
 
For those who want to know the facts, in the US, since 1989, the total number of exonerations recorded by the National Registry of Exonerations has reached 1,532.

Each exoneration represents a wrongful conviction.

Here are some of the statistics regarding contributing factors:

For homicides, the rate of false confession was 21% (141/684).

While there are several potential causes for false confessions and admissions, coercive interrogations are one factor.

"Mentally capable adults also give false confessions due to a variety of factors like the length of interrogation, exhaustion or a belief that they can be released after confessing and prove their innocence later."
Source: http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/False-Confessions.php

Other factors in wrongful convictions for homicide include:

Perjury or false accusation: 67% (459/684)
Official misconduct: 59% (405/684)
Mistaken witness ID: 24% (161/684)
False or misleading forensics: 23% (156/684)

Totals add to more than 100% because more than one factor may contribute for a case.

Source: http://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/ExonerationsContribFactorsByCrime.aspx#
 
For those who want to know the facts, in the US, since 1989, the total number of exonerations recorded by the National Registry of Exonerations has reached 1,532.

Each exoneration represents a wrongful conviction.

Here are some of the statistics regarding contributing factors:

For homicides, the rate of false confession was 21% (141/684).
While there are several potential causes for false confessions and admissions, coercive interrogations are one factor.

"Mentally capable adults also give false confessions due to a variety of factors like the length of interrogation, exhaustion or a belief that they can be released after confessing and prove their innocence later."
Source: http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/False-Confessions.php

Other factors in wrongful convictions for homicide include:

Perjury or false accusation: 67% (459/684) Official misconduct: 59% (405/684) Mistaken witness ID: 24% (161/684) False or misleading forensics: 23% (156/684)
Totals add to more than 100% because more than one factor may contribute for a case.

Source: http://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/ExonerationsContribFactorsByCrime.aspx#

I think we have every single one of these in the murder of Meredeth Kercher.
 
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