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I think criminals are the ones who need to reexamine their use of force to other people, including the police. They need to profile themselves, therefore the police will not feel a need to do so.

I do not want police letting someone who they know just robbed a store, then attacked a cop while he's in his own car, to just walk away while the cop waits for backup. Yes, there are people in this thread who have argued this exact thing.

If I saw a guy attack a cop in his own car and I heard a gunshot, and the cop let the perpetrator continue walking up the street towards me, I'd be pretty pissed off.

Correct, criminals should not be criminals. Cops should also not be criminals (by using excessive force). Note that I'm not making any arguments specifically about this case, in this comment.

Your comment just smelled a little bit too much like "don't knock the cops (ever), stay in line, etc.
 
firing three more shots at the head of a guy without a gun or knife after the guy already has several bullets in him

In his arm! This is far from a debilitating shot or two. And none of the bullets that hit his arm were "in" him, they passed through in two cases, and one was little more than a nick.

and in the most likely scenario is just falling towards the ground and is certainly falling towards the ground when he is hit by the bullet that goes through the top of his head

In your physically impossible scenario. :rolleyes: All three bullets had almost identical paths, Brown can not have been falling until after the last bullet is fired or they would have had different paths.

I also think that Wilson is lying about the reason he drove back to confront Brown and Johnson. If it was his goal to arrest them in the safest way possible he would have moved forward and kept them under surveillance until backup arrived.

How was he lying? We have the call he placed to request backup because he had the two suspects. They had already told him that they were almost home so he knew that they were about to get off the street and into the apartments where they would be harder if not impossible to find. Exactly what is he lying about then?

His approach put himself unnecessarily in harms way, was against the common theory of policing that the safest way for everybody involved to arrest a a potentially difficult individual is with the use of overwhelming force and it made it more likely that the suspects would flee in a way that he couldn't do anything about except shoot them.

I also suspect that Wilson was a coward. He didn't mind hassling people when he thought there was no risk to himself but when he experienced personal risk he blasted away rather than attempt any other alternatives.

Way to be consistent in your argument, a coward that unnecessarily puts himself in harm's way rather than taking the safe option.... :rolleyes:
 
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Correct, criminals should not be criminals. Cops should also not be criminals (by using excessive force). Note that I'm not making any arguments specifically about this case, in this comment.

Your comment just smelled a little bit too much like "don't knock the cops (ever), stay in line, etc.
Not sure how you got that from my post. The micro-analyzing of the cop in this thread has reached a point of absurdity and I addressed a specific part of that - the people who are saying Wilson should have let him go until backup arrived. Really bad idea.

I am in defense of police in some of the latest brutality/racist/aggressiveness cases being reported because the media paints a picture of this being an epidemic, and people are believing it.

Example:
Last night at 11:00 three police units parked in front of my house. I was watching a movie and saw a bright light splash across my front window. It looked different from the normal headlights I see, so I peeked outside and saw the police. I assumed they were looking for someone because I saw flashlights. I safely scanned my backyard to make sure nobody was hiding out there.

Later I checked my porch-cam video and saw a cop briefly searching my front yard with a flashlight. He checked my porch and front door and around my truck, then poked his head around the side by the gate, obviously looking for someone.

I took a picture of it from my video monitor and sent it to a friend, asking if he had a police scanner because I was curious as to what was going on. He replied (referring to the cop), "What a moron!". I replied back telling him I have no problem with cops looking for someone in my front yard if there is a good reason for it.

My friend automatically assumed that the cop was doing something wrong, while I was actually happy they were there. Today it appears the call was a welfare check, although I am not certain. There are a few convalescent homes nearby - perhaps they were looking for someone who was simply lost and confused rather than a dangerous criminal.

Point is, the media is getting everybody fired up about cops to the point that many people are blowing things out of proportion.
 
Point is, [st]the media is[/st] bad cops abusing their power and making headlines instead of being hushed up are getting everybody fired up about cops to the point that many people are blowing things out of proportion.

Fixed that for you.

Not that long ago, abuses by bad officers met cover-ups at all levels; and the press were frequently just as complicit as the local governments in hushing up abuses by the police. A few high-profile incidents that could not be hushed up came to light; but they were treated as anomalies. Now, thanks to the prevalence of video capable cell phones, abuses can be reported almost instantaneously, and the extent of problem is coming to light; with the press jumping on it with their usual sensationalism.
 
Fixed that for you.

Not that long ago, abuses by bad officers met cover-ups at all levels; and the press were frequently just as complicit as the local governments in hushing up abuses by the police. A few high-profile incidents that could not be hushed up came to light; but they were treated as anomalies. Now, thanks to the prevalence of video capable cell phones, abuses can be reported almost instantaneously, and the extent of problem is coming to light; with the press jumping on it with their usual sensationalism.

Which has caused problems, such as the Michael Brown case. There was no reason to turn this into riots, hype up the public about something that really wasn't a case. Instead businesses were burned, people were hurt, among other issues.

Turning everything into a case of police brutality because awhile ago there were cover ups of police brutality is a ridiculous line of thinking. They're going to make up for their mistakes of the past by turning everything into a front page story? Weird.
 
Turning everything into a case of police brutality because awhile ago there were cover ups of police brutality is a ridiculous line of thinking. They're going to make up for their mistakes of the past by turning everything into a front page story? Weird.

I would agree with you if those cases were all "awhile ago". But they still keep happening, and it is important for people to understand that they still keep happening. Yes, they get overly sensationalized; and that causes problems of its own; but nothing is ever going to change if we keep pretending that it never happens, that it's not still a huge problem, and that everyone who tries to say anything about it is "over-reacting".
 
I would agree with you if those cases were all "awhile ago". But they still keep happening, and it is important for people to understand that they still keep happening. Yes, they get overly sensationalized; and that causes problems of its own; but nothing is ever going to change if we keep pretending that it never happens, that it's not still a huge problem, and that everyone who tries to say anything about it is "over-reacting".

Saying something, and burning a city block to the ground are two completely different things.
 
I would agree with you if those cases were all "awhile ago". But they still keep happening, and it is important for people to understand that they still keep happening.

Yet this wasn't really a case of police brutality, is it? At best, even if we listen to all of the pro-Brown stories, we have a cop that might have copped an attitude to a kid that just strong arm robbed a store. People should understand that those cases keep happening, and legitimate cases should be brought to light and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. No one in this thread would deny that; however, trying to turn self-defense cases into police brutality cases is completely stupid. In this case it caused damage to the property of innocent, good, local citizens. It was reckless, and idiotic.

Yes, they get overly sensationalized; and that causes problems of its own;

Like in Ferguson. Outrage over something that should have never even seen media time but a few "eyewitnesses" lied their ass off, added to news coverage that tried to twist a story into something it wasn't.

but nothing is ever going to change if we keep pretending that it never happens,

You're right, and it's also not applicable here. I don't see police brutality here.

that it's not still a huge problem, and that everyone who tries to say anything about it is "over-reacting".

I am not saying everyone who tries to say anything is over-reacting. I am saying that the eyewitnesses and media over-reacted in this case. Which I believe is factual, and caused a **** ton of damage in this case.

It sucks for those people that weren't involved yet paid the most.
 
Have the useful idiots finally jumped the shark?

Here's a photo of them staging a "die in" at a local furniture store because they're all butt hurt that stores are open on MLK Day. #blacklivesmatter
 

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Point is, [st]the media is[/st] bad cops abusing their power and making headlines instead of being hushed up are getting everybody fired up about cops to the point that many people are blowing things out of proportion.
Fixed that for you.

Not that long ago, abuses by bad officers met cover-ups at all levels; and the press were frequently just as complicit as the local governments in hushing up abuses by the police. A few high-profile incidents that could not be hushed up came to light; but they were treated as anomalies. Now, thanks to the prevalence of video capable cell phones, abuses can be reported almost instantaneously, and the extent of problem is coming to light; with the press jumping on it with their usual sensationalism.

You think all (or most) of the police shootings etc posted in the news these days are of "bad cops"? My point is that many, perhaps most, are not and that many of these stories exist simply to fan the flames of an epidemic that does not exist.

If you have a point to make, I would kindly ask that you not "fix" my quotes. I've always found that very rude and arrogant.
 
In his arm! This is far from a debilitating shot or two. And none of the bullets that hit his arm were "in" him, they passed through in two cases, and one was little more than a nick.

I stand corrected.


In your physically impossible scenario. :rolleyes: All three bullets had almost identical paths, Brown can not have been falling until after the last bullet is fired or they would have had different paths.
Can you provide some details of your calculation here? When Brown began to rotate forward how bent over was he? What is the pivot point that you are assuming that the body is rotating around? Are any muscle contractions by Brown before or after he has been shot relevant in your calculation of how long it would take Brown's head to rotate? I take it you now understand that a calculation based on the notion that Brown's head would have been in free fall is not correct?

How was he lying? We have the call he placed to request backup because he had the two suspects. They had already told him that they were almost home so he knew that they were about to get off the street and into the apartments where they would be harder if not impossible to find. Exactly what is he lying about then?



Way to be consistent in your argument, a coward that unnecessarily puts himself in harm's way rather than taking the safe option.... :rolleyes:
As I see the situation:

Wilson had a choice of two courses of actions if he believed that the Brown and Johnson were suspects in a strong arm robbery. Back off a bit and keep them under surveillance while he waited for backup or move to within about 20 feet of them, get out of the car, draw his gun and order the pair to surrender.

Wilson didn't do either of those things. He put himself so close to them that he put himself at considerable risk if they were armed with either a knife or a gun. He put himself so close to them that even without a gun or a knife Brown was able to attack him. Why did Wilson do that? He seemed to be bad police strategy whatever his goal was unless his goal was to get in their face because they had disrespected him by ignoring his commands to get out of the street. The fact that it was was so confused for so long about whether Wilson claimed to know they were suspects in the strong armed robbery suggests to me that it was his intent to pick a story that best suited his purposes after he had a chance to review the evidence surrounding the shooting.

So I suspect that Wilson wasn't a hero for putting himself in harm's way. I suspect he was just a cop with a little rage going from the disrespect he perceived that he had received. This scenario fits what we learned about Wilson from the Arman video. He was a cop that engaged in unnecessarily antagonistic behavior and that he lied about.

ETA: More explanation of the pivot point that the body was rotating around? What I was talking about was how is the leg bent during the rotation and where does the rotation begin in relationship to setting of the foot and the impact of the bullets.
 
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As I see the situation:

Wilson had a choice of two courses of actions if he believed that the Brown and Johnson were suspects in a strong arm robbery. Back off a bit and keep them under surveillance while he waited for backup or move to within about 20 feet of them, get out of the car, draw his gun and order the pair to surrender.

As previously stated, he couldn't back off and wait, could he? Had he done that it is very likely he would have lost both of the suspects. Is that the way you want police to handle violent criminals in your neighborhood? To just leave them alone and let them disappear into the community?

Also, let's not use the word "believed", in relation to if Brown and Johnson were suspects. I'd say it was pretty well confirmed that Brown was the suspect. The description stated he was wearing a white shirt, red hat, and yellow socks. I can't possibly imagine more than a handful of people that would wear that outfit, and Brown was in the area, and fit all pieces of the description.

Wilson didn't do either of those things. He put himself so close to them that he put himself at considerable risk if they were armed with either a knife or a gun.

Which gives Brown the right to openly attack him? Ok....

He put himself so close to them that even without a gun or a knife Brown was able to attack him. Why did Wilson do that?

Could be a logistical error, could be the best route that he had available to him, could be the best way he knew to block them from running, etc.

He seemed to be bad police strategy whatever his goal was unless his goal was to get in their face because they had disrespected him by ignoring his commands to get out of the street.

False dichotomy. Your options here are: Either Wilson sucks as a cop, or he was an ******* looking to get in a fight with some kids. Really? You don't think there are any other possible explanations (such as the ones I listed above) that could have caused him to select that course of action? This is rhetorical, I know your answer, don't bother.

The fact that it was was so confused for so long about whether Wilson claimed to know they were suspects in the strong armed robbery suggests to me that it was his intent to pick a story that best suited his purposes after he had a chance to review the evidence surrounding the shooting.

He gave his statement, after leaving the hospital, the night it happened. Do you have any evidence to support this assertion or is this just what you "think" happened?

How long was it confused for? He replied on the radio stating he had the suspects, and that was in real time, unless you have something to the contrary. Then the footage was released the following day. I think you may have your events confused.

So I suspect that Wilson wasn't a hero for putting himself in harm's way.

Of course not, that flies directly in the face of your confirmation bias.

I suspect he was just a cop with a little rage going from the disrespect he perceived that he had received.

Which of course is supported by...nothing.

This scenario fits what we learned about Wilson from the Arman video. He was a cop that engaged in unnecessarily antagonistic behavior and that he lied about.

:rolleyes: I've said this multiple times and no one seems to be able to provide me with anything solid. Outside of the Arman video is there anything in his file that shows he had a habit of what you're accusing him of? Before you say nothing was recorded, or the police station covered it up, I've used the example of the police officer that shot the other individual, Meyer jr. Within days of the shooting the media had his criminal file, which he had charges from when he was much younger, tore apart his entire facebook, instagram, and exposed it all in their article. Now we're over 5 months out from this shooting and there is one 15 second video, that has no context, and you're treating it as gospel on how Wilson conducted every interaction on the police force. I mean, seriously.

I understand that you really want Wilson to be guilty of something, or at least you really feel that he is guilty of something; however, to support your theory you've brought up positioning of a vehicle and a bunch of random assertions.
 
...


Which gives Brown the right to openly attack him? Ok....



...

It is not out of the bounds of possibility that Wilson's actions were provocative enough that Brown's actions were justified. Nobody knows. But my guess is that while I might sympathize a bit with Brown's situation if there was video of the incident, I would still think it was criminal behavior to attack Wilson. Specifically if Wilson had already been very antagonistic towards Brown and now he drove his car in such a way as to frighten Brown I could understand what might drive Brown to attack Wilson. But barring something that looked like an intentional assault on Brown with his car by Wilson, Brown did not have a right to attack Wilson.

A strange fact about all of this is that Wilson acted in a way not consistent with skilled police procedure when he confronted Brown and Johnson the second time if he knew them to be suspects in a strong arm robbery. Any theory about whether Wilson's actions were appropriate or not needs to take this in to consideration.

You said that he might have made a logistical mistake, I think you might have meant something like he might have made a tactical mistake. Wilson well might have. I don't know. I did not mean to imply a dichotomy when I listed the possibilities. But if Wilson did make a tactical mistake that resulted in Brown perceiving that he was being assaulted then some of the theories about Brown being the total cause of the incident are wrong.

As to my confirmation biases: Of course, they are affecting the way I see this, nobody can avoid the effect of confirmation bias. I will note however that the arguments by the Wilson defenders were enough to make me change my views. And after the Wilson defender views became my own I went back to try to understand the Wilson defender arguments in detail about what the physical evidence could prove and it was at that point that I came to believe the strength of the evidence for the Wilson defender views was not as strong as I originally believed or as the Wilson defenders claim.
 
It is not out of the bounds of possibility that Wilson's actions were provocative enough that Brown's actions were justified.

Yes, it is out of the bounds. Unless the officer has physically assaulted you, or caused you bodily harm, you have absolutely no right to assault him. You can also swap "officer" with "human that walks the earth" and it would still stand. Outside of an attack by Wilson, there is\was nothing that would justify Browns attack.

Specifically if Wilson had already been very antagonistic towards Brown and now he drove his car in such a way as to frighten Brown I could understand what might drive Brown to attack Wilson. But barring something that looked like an intentional assault on Brown with his car by Wilson, Brown did not have a right to attack Wilson.

These two paragraphs seem to almost contradict each other. If Brown had gotten out of the road when asked, or not been there in the first place, then it wouldn't have mattered how Wilson, or anyone else, would have been driving. There is absolutely no evidence at all that has been shown that would possibly give Brown the right to attack the police officer. None of your hypothetical situations can change that fact.

A strange fact about all of this is that Wilson acted in a way not consistent with skilled police procedure when he confronted Brown and Johnson the second time if he knew them to be suspects in a strong arm robbery. Any theory about whether Wilson's actions were appropriate or not needs to take this in to consideration.

What was not consistent with skilled police procedure? The way he parked his car? The way he backed up? That he was too close? Do you have something that defines "skilled police procedure" in circumstances like this or are you just assuming that it wasn't consistent? I don't recall seeing anything presented that has confirmed Wilson acted in a way that contradicts police procedure, just implications from people who don't work in the field. Unless you are a police officer and can provide evidence.

You said that he might have made a logistical mistake, I think you might have meant something like he might have made a tactical mistake.

Yes, that is what I meant, thank you for the correction.

Wilson well might have. I don't know. I did not mean to imply a dichotomy when I listed the possibilities. But if Wilson did make a tactical mistake that resulted in Brown perceiving that he was being assaulted then some of the theories about Brown being the total cause of the incident are wrong.

I guess I can't speak on that as I have never said that Brown was the total cause, just that he was the instigator of the events. To me, it doesn't matter if Brown perceived he was being assaulted, because he wasn't, under any definition of the term assault. He wasn't racially profiled, he wasn't insulted, he wasn't hit with anything, he wasn't attacked. If we believe the WORST CASE claims of what Wilson said, he told them to get the **** out of the road. Big deal, who cares? Mind you, we don't even know if he actually said that since there are conflicting stories between witnesses. He was never threatened with physical injury.

As to my confirmation biases: Of course, they are affecting the way I see this, nobody can avoid the effect of confirmation bias. I will note however that the arguments by the Wilson defenders were enough to make me change my views. And after the Wilson defender views became my own I went back to try to understand the Wilson defender arguments in detail about what the physical evidence could prove and it was at that point that I came to believe the strength of the evidence for the Wilson defender views was not as strong as I originally believed or as the Wilson defenders claim.

You are more than welcome to believe whatever you would like, but I've asked for evidence to support your claims multiple times and you have yet to provide any.

If this is a situation where you are just stating your own assumptions, and make implications without evidence to confirm your biasness then just say so. If you have no interest in following the physical evidence then fine. I'll leave you alone to justify your own reasoning however you feel suited to do so.
 
Can you provide some details of your calculation here? When Brown began to rotate forward how bent over was he? What is the pivot point that you are assuming that the body is rotating around? Are any muscle contractions by Brown before or after he has been shot relevant in your calculation of how long it would take Brown's head to rotate? I take it you now understand that a calculation based on the notion that Brown's head would have been in free fall is not correct?

The problem that you and those that argue my calculations seem to keep forgetting is that the claim is that Brown was already falling before the three shots were fired. In other words, that he was already in free fall before he was shot. Even you say it (the most likely scenario is just falling towards the ground.) My calculation was to show that even had his head been at full height, a free falling object would have hit the ground between the shots being fired. Physics says that if Brown was falling before shot 1 of those 3, as you and others keep claiming, the tracks cannot have been all but identical. You also seem to want to conflict this idea that Brown was falling pre-first shot with "but he was falling by shot three" however then you walk into the issue of the fact the 3 shots were fired within a period of about 1.5 to 2 seconds so you are condemning the officer for doing exactly what they are trained to do, fire a burst rapidly, in fact many would say that it is almost impossible not to do this with their weapons.

As I see the situation:

And you became an expert on police procedures when?

Wilson had a choice of two courses of actions if he believed that the Brown and Johnson were suspects in a strong arm robbery. Back off a bit and keep them under surveillance while he waited for backup or move to within about 20 feet of them, get out of the car, draw his gun and order the pair to surrender.

First off you simply pull these options out of your butt to suit your claims, you have zero actual rational position for them. Second you create a false dichotomy. Why should these be his only options, and why are they the best?

Personally I think both are terrible. Option 1) he just been told they were almost home and so staying back and watching all he does is give them the opportunity to escape into the development and be lost in the community. How is this a good idea? Option 2) this is even worse. Given them 20 feet head start is they decide to run, and should they go in opposite directions, what does he do then? Drawing the gun not only limits his options but it escalates the situation.

Doing what he did actually gave him the opportunity to resolve the issue without drawing his firearm. Had Brown not decided to attack him, the situation would have been resolved without a firearm being drawn, surely that is far better policing than pointing a gun at people and demanding they get on the ground?

Wilson didn't do either of those things. He put himself so close to them that he put himself at considerable risk if they were armed with either a knife or a gun. He put himself so close to them that even without a gun or a knife Brown was able to attack him.

There was no evidence that either of them were carrying weapons. He had seen no weapons in his previous encounter, and there was no weapons mentioned in the robbery report. Given the lack of evidence for them being armed, why should he have treated them like they were? Again we are seeing this "Caps can never be right" attitude coming through. Caps see a kid with what looks to any normal rational person like a gun and treat them like they are carrying a real gun, they are wrong and should have guessed it was a toy,. Cop treats people like they are unarmed and acts as if they are, and he should have treated them like they had a gun. :rolleyes:

He had also just interacted with them without violence, what reason did he have to believe that things would change so dramatically in the second engagement?

Why did Wilson do that? He seemed to be bad police strategy whatever his goal was unless his goal was to get in their face because they had disrespected him by ignoring his commands to get out of the street.

No, you call it a "bad police strategy" because of your agenda, but whatever he did had it ended in tragedy due to Brown's actions, you'd be claiming that his make a bad choice and should have done it your way, there is a term for that...

The fact that it was was so confused for so long about whether Wilson claimed to know they were suspects in the strong armed robbery suggests to me that it was his intent to pick a story that best suited his purposes after he had a chance to review the evidence surrounding the shooting.

Rubbish, we have his radio calls acknowledging the original robbery call asking if they needed help, then him saying his call out was over and he was looking, and finally his call requesting back up because he had them. One more thing they you and your like-minded friends seem to over look. If he wasn't aware of them being suspects in the robbery, why did he call for back up?

On top of that, as was pointed out by plague311, Wilson gave his statement the night of the incident. The confusion occurred because the police didn't release the details right away and members of the community started making stuff up about it and spreading lies which the helpful idiots all swallowed as the truth because it fitted what they wanted to believe, evil racist cop guns down innocent unarmed black kid.

So I suspect that Wilson wasn't a hero for putting himself in harm's way
.

No one is saying Wilson is a hero, they are saying he did his job.

I suspect he was just a cop with a little rage going from the disrespect he perceived that he had received. This scenario fits what we learned about Wilson from the Arman video. He was a cop that engaged in unnecessarily antagonistic behavior and that he lied about.

You suspect it based on zero evidence other then your own preconceived bias, this is not sceptical behaviour. The evidence of the radio call shows that it was unlikely that Wilson acted out of rage. He is calm when he radios for back up.
 
As previously stated, he couldn't back off and wait, could he? Had he done that it is very likely he would have lost both of the suspects.


Brown and Johnson didn't exactly flee after their first encounter with Wilson.
 
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The claim that there is no evidence to support the possibility that Wilson acted inappropriately is of course true when one defines evidence to be only facts which support their point of view.

I don't believe there is proof that Wilson acted inappropriately I think there is evidence to support the possibility that he did act inappropriately. I've said just about everything that I have to say about this. I have presented the facts which I think are significant. For some people, the fact that what I and others have presented doesn't support what they believe is enough to claim that which has been presented is not evidence. That is fine. You're not the first group of people to reject facts that don't support your beliefs. The notion that I'm not a cop and therefore can't form an opinion about what is appropriate behavior for a cop might not be hypocritical nonsense if the Wilson supporters weren't doing the same thing except in the opposite direction.

As to Phantomwolf's claims about a head being in a free fall even when it is partially supported by the victim's leg's. Huh? Brown might have been bent over at the waist, been stumbling forward and the time it took for his head to rotate completely through the space where he was shot could have been fairly long. It is very difficult to estimate because we don't know how much he was bent over, we don't know what his muscles did after he was shot, we don't know when his foot hit the ground relative to when he received the first bullet to the head and we don't know the angle that his knee was bent at when he was shot. If you have some actual data or some actual simulations of what you are talking about Phantomwolf let's see it. Is there any expert, beyond yourself, that can provide mathematical support for your claim?
 
Brown and Johnson didn't exactly flee after their first encounter with Wilson.

They didn't need to, as they openly told Wilson they were "but a minute" from their house. Do the math. Wilson called for backup, the encounter lasted approximately 90-120 seconds, backup didn't show up until after the encounter was over. We aren't talking quantum physics here, even read the details of Johnson's initial talk to the media. When he told his story he ran to his house that was seconds away. The car he was hiding in front of was almost directly in front of his house.
 
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