Palcohol (powdered alcohol)

[blutoski]

Might be useful for campers, especially backpackers. It'd be nice to have a drink after a long days hike, where lugging around liquid alcohol is impractical. Not saying that's enough reason to allow it, but its a reason.

I thought the same thing, and did the math; ethanol gram-per-gram, it's actually heavier than 80 proof. Not including the container weights.


ETA: sorry for the repetition, i just noticed CORed did the same calculation.

 

[Hellbound]

Hygroscopic.

Danke very much

 

[mgidm86]

I'd buy the product. I'm really not seeing what the hue and cry is all about.

I see no reason why this shouldn't be brought to market. It doesn't seem to me to have any inherent problems that any other form of alcoholic beverage doesn't.

This is what I'm interested in. I'm surprised nobody has touched on this yet. I will guess that the alcoholic beverage producers do not want this product on the market.

According to the makers of Palcohol:

http://time.com/71664/powdered-alcohol-palcohol-error/

“This doesn’t mean that Palcohol isn’t approved,” it said. “It just means that these labels aren’t approved. We will re-submit labels.” Palcohol will have to resubmit labels for approval to the bureau, which is part of the Department of Treasury.

According to the website, no. Apparently snorting it is painful and takes a lot longer to get inebriated than simply mixing it with water and drinking it. (Which makes me wonder how they know that.)

Supposedly the opposite is true:

Palcohol’s marketing has not always taken this threat entirely seriously. According to blog SB Nation, Palcohol’s website originally stated:

Let’s talk about the elephant in the room….snorting Palcohol. Yes, you can snort it. And you’ll get drunk almost instantly because the alcohol will be absorbed so quickly in your nose. Good idea? No. It will mess you up. Use Palcohol responsibly.

Does anyone think this product should be illegal? If so, why? I'm thinking the black market will accept it just fine.

 

[mgidm86]

Palcohols homepage:

http://www.palcohol.com/home.html

We are disheartened that no state, which has already introduced legislation to ban powdered alcohol, asked Mark Phillips to testify before a committee to explain the product to the legislators. Since no one has first hand knowledge of powdered alcohol, you would think the responsible thing to do is find out about the product from the source. Instead, the legislators got caught up in the hyperbole and misinformation that is being thrown about by people who don't know what they're talking about.

People say that banning powdered alcohol is the responsible thing to do. It's just the opposite. Banning powdered alcohol is the most irresponsible action a legislature can take. By banning a product that's in demand, it creates a black market which means the state loses all control over it. Then underage people can get a hold of it much easier. We know from experience that Prohibition doesn't work.

About weight (according to the company):

Travel Applications: Similarly, adult travelers journeying to destinations far from home could conveniently and lawfully carry their favorite cocktail in powder format. Moderate quantities of flavored Palcohol products carried in resealable pouches are a fraction of the weight and bulk associated with traditional liquor packaging.
Medical Applications: We've had medical personnel contact us about using Palcohol as an antiseptic, especially in remote locations where weight and bulk make it difficult to transport supplies.

Again, about snorting, they reversed what they claimed earlier:

Not true. It's painful to snort due to the alcohol. Second, it's impractical. It takes approximately 60 minutes to snort the equivalent of one shot of vodka.

So not sure about that one.

ETA: I doubt I would use this because I rarely drink alcohol.

 

[LorenzoValla]

Powdered alcohol is only 51% alcohol by weight.
151-proof Everclear is 75% alcohol by weight.

If weight is the issue, backpackers would be better off taking a flask of Everclear and diluting it with water before drinking it. (Plus they could use the Everclear as an antiseptic or for starting fires if they wanted.)

If volume is the issue, powdered alcohol fares even worse in comparison.

Powdered alcohol provides no benefit for backpackers.

So it gets lighter when you add water??

 

[Emily's Cat]

One thing I can think of that would make palcohol a better option than traditional booze would be in making edible inebriants. I imagine you could add it to frosting to make alcoholic cupcakes, or to french onion dip for some extra fun chips, or to chocolate sauce on top of ice cream. I'm sure there are lots of other possibilities where you could add it to a food item without substantially altering the consistency, but where regular booze would make it too runny.

I'm curious about whether or not it retains its alcohol content when cooked. Regular alcohol evaporates out at a relatively low temperature. So in baked goods, it leaves b behind flavor but very little actual inebriating elements.

 

[Emily's Cat]

So it gets lighter when you add water??

I don't think so. I think it just gets much lower proof and heavier.

 

[Hellbound]

I don't think so. I think it just gets much lower proof and heavier.

This.

So cocktails with a lower alcohol percentage (10% to 20% definately, probably up to 50%) would be lighter in the powdered form than the cocktails themselves.

Now, if you used some sort of 90% alcohol concentrated mix (add water to dilute to proper strength), that would be lighter still.

At least, that's my undertsanding of the numbers.

 

[LorenzoValla]

I don't think so. I think it just gets much lower proof and heavier.

I'm pretty good at math, but I can't figure out how a normal shot of 80 proof vodka or whiskey is going to be the same weight when it's dehydrated.

 

[blutoski]

So it gets lighter when you add water??

No, it's lighter mixed 40% with water than mixed with the starch compound.

We could calculate the breakeven percentage EtOH(aq) if we knew the exact formula of the starch compound.

 

[blutoski]

I'm pretty good at math, but I can't figure out how a normal shot of 80 proof vodka or whiskey is going to be the same weight when it's dehydrated.

It's not just dehydrated. Dehydrated alcohol is pure liquid ethanol. aka: jet rocket fuel.

This product is alcohol mixed with a starch compound that absorbs it. The combined compound is a solid.


Edited: not jet fuel. rocket fuel.

 

[pharphis]

One thing I can think of that would make palcohol a better option than traditional booze would be in making edible inebriants. I imagine you could add it to frosting to make alcoholic cupcakes, or to french onion dip for some extra fun chips, or to chocolate sauce on top of ice cream. I'm sure there are lots of other possibilities where you could add it to a food item without substantially altering the consistency, but where regular booze would make it too runny.

I'm curious about whether or not it retains its alcohol content when cooked. Regular alcohol evaporates out at a relatively low temperature. So in baked goods, it leaves b behind flavor but very little actual inebriating elements.

Based on simple host-guest chemistry... it should be stable up to a higher temperature and lose the alcohol less readily. However, with regular baking temperatures I am doubtful that these inclusion compounds (cyclodextrin + alcohol) are stable enough. If someone links to the patent or something they might (?) have information about the thermal stability.

Alternatively, if I knew which cyclodextrin to use I might be able to make it in the lab quickly and run a TGA or DSC or simple melting point experiment to determine at which point the alcohol is lost. I know I have "cyclodextrin" but I don't have the time to check which kind it is

edit: Actually I don't have cyclodextrin anymore... but I could get it from other labs, probably

 

[John Jones]

Hm. As was discussed, deprotonating the ethanol with Na or K would work but then you're dealing with something very corrosive (and stinky iirc)

[...]

Powdered potassium ethoxide will burst into flame (or worse) in moist air.

 

[blutoski]

No, it's lighter mixed 40% with water than mixed with the starch compound.

We could calculate the breakeven percentage EtOH(aq) if we knew the exact formula of the starch compound.

I just realized we don't need it. They provide a lot of information in their marketing. We can calculate from their press releases what the alcohol density is... 100g sachet mixed with 250mL is 4.8% alcohol v/v, so it's storing 250ml x .048 = 12mL of alcohol, 12% by mass.

Vodka:
100g of 40% spirits is 40ml of alcohol.
So, it's one third the yield of vodka; conversely, it's 3x heavier than vodka per alcohol gram.

Everclear:
100g of 95% spirits is 95ml of alcohol.
So, it's one eighth the yield of Everclear; conversely, it's 8x heavier than Everclear per alcohol gram.


The breakeven appears to be 12%ish. Any liquid beverage higher than 12% alcohol will be lighter per gram of EtOH than Palcohol. Give or take a few grams for packaging.

While it's true that the target market is probably the alcopop segment, for the specific discussion about hikers, it's a terrible choice. Carry EverClear and mix it with water and juice crystals. And keep it away from fire. Or: coordinate with friends who are not hiking, and can carry the booze in a boat or other vehicle.

 

[Soapy Sam]

The obvious next step is powdered water, permitting the invention of the actual cocktail bar.

 

[Wolrab]

It might have been posted earlier in the thread, but Thunderfoot pretty much covers all the points on this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c0QLaVLhTs

 

[Emily's Cat]

Based on simple host-guest chemistry... it should be stable up to a higher temperature and lose the alcohol less readily. However, with regular baking temperatures I am doubtful that these inclusion compounds (cyclodextrin + alcohol) are stable enough. If someone links to the patent or something they might (?) have information about the thermal stability.

Alternatively, if I knew which cyclodextrin to use I might be able to make it in the lab quickly and run a TGA or DSC or simple melting point experiment to determine at which point the alcohol is lost. I know I have "cyclodextrin" but I don't have the time to check which kind it is

edit: Actually I don't have cyclodextrin anymore... but I could get it from other labs, probably

Well golly. You sound like a *most* interesting person to know...

 

[John Jones]

This is what I'm interested in. I'm surprised nobody has touched on this yet. I will guess that the alcoholic beverage producers do not want this product on the market.

According to the makers of Palcohol:

http://time.com/71664/powdered-alcohol-palcohol-error/




Supposedly the opposite is true:



Does anyone think this product should be illegal? If so, why? I'm thinking the black market will accept it just fine.

I doubt this product even exists.

 

[pharphis]

Well golly. You sound like a *most* interesting person to know...

I'm just a MSc student (Chemistry) who works with host-guest chemistry... I work with lanthanides but my colleagues do organic host-guest stuff using peptides, often including ethanol (since they use it as a solvent)

 

[fishbob]

Does anyone think this product should be illegal? If so, why? I'm thinking the black market will accept it just fine.

Absolutely not.
Just as in every other prohibition attempt, it would still be available and would make some very bad people very wealthy.
We should have learned that lesson by now.