Palcohol (powdered alcohol)

[catsmate]

I was just reading an article about powdered alcohol. At 12% by volume, it seems a pretty inefficient way to store or transport alcohol. However, that raised another question.

With MSG, a sodium ion is bonded to glutamate to produce a stable powder/crystal. Would it not be possible to turn alcohol into a type of salt in a similar way?

Could we not add a sodium ion or something to the chemical structure of alcohol to turn it into a solid, rather than encasing it in a sugar molecule? I assume there are good reasons why this hasn't been done yet - either the addition of another element changes the chemical properties of alcohol too much or doesn't result in a solid at room temperature, but I'd love to hear some knowledgeable exposition on this idea.

Sodium ethoxide, the sodium salt of ethanol, is moderately common; it's used in some chemical syntheses. It's quite corrosive and poisonous.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

sodium ethoxide

With MSG, a sodium ion is bonded to glutamate to produce a stable powder/crystal. Would it not be possible to turn alcohol into a type of salt in a similar way?

Could we not add a sodium ion or something to the chemical structure of alcohol to turn it into a solid, rather than encasing it in a sugar molecule? I assume there are good reasons why this hasn't been done yet - either the addition of another element changes the chemical properties of alcohol too much or doesn't result in a solid at room temperature, but I'd love to hear some knowledgeable exposition on this idea.

Sodium ethoxide is a known compound, but you would have to treat ethanol with a strong base to make it. If you consumed it (which I strongly think would be a very bad idea), the effect would be something like consuming sodium hydroxide, which is caustic.

 

[Octavo]

Sodium ethoxide, the sodium salt of ethanol, is moderately common; it's used in some chemical syntheses. It's quite corrosive and poisonous.

Sodium ethoxide is a known compound, but you would have to treat ethanol with a strong base to make it. If you consumed it (which I strongly think would be a very bad idea), the effect would be something like consuming sodium hydroxide, which is caustic.

OK, so Sodium won't clearly wouldn't cut it

I knew there was a reason no-one had done this yet. There aren't any other things we could use are there? Potassium perhaps?

 

[John Jones]

nvm - ninjad twice

 

[John Jones]

OK, so Sodium won't clearly wouldn't cut it

I knew there was a reason no-one had done this yet. There aren't any other things we could use are there? Potassium perhaps?

Potassium would be worse than sodium.

You can't react anything with ethanol that will not turn it into something distinctly not ethanol. You could freeze it, but the melting point is -173.2°F (-114°C) - way too cold to be safe.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Sodium ethoxide, the sodium salt of ethanol, is moderately common; it's used in some chemical syntheses. It's quite corrosive and poisonous.

So, tequila then.

 

[Psi Baba]

Reconstituting the stuff is almost certain to yield a very inferior beverage. Being that typical liquor is 60% water, the water used in the manufacture of liquor is very critical to its final taste, especially with vodka. In fact, with most American vodkas, the only difference among them is the water used, as almost of them begin with the same mass-produced grain alcohol (usually made from corn) purchased from one of only a handful of large-scale alcohol producers (and shipped by rail in tanker cars). Using ordinary tap water for your powdered alcohol is not likely to create a very pleasant drink.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

We all drink the stuff for the taste.

 

[catsmate]

OK, so Sodium won't clearly wouldn't cut it

I knew there was a reason no-one had done this yet. There aren't any other things we could use are there? Potassium perhaps?

Potassium ethoxide ia somewhat worse, for a start (IIRR) it's even more flammable.
Aluminium triethoxide is sort-of a possibility, it reacts with water to form ethanol and aluminium hydroxide.

 

[Brian-M]

I say legalize it and treat it like any other product with alcohol. Most people would have no interest. Some backpackers and campers would love it. Perhaps others.

For those who don't realize it, people who do long backpacking treks don't carry multiple days of water with them and instead get water along the way. Powdered alcohol would be appealing to those of them that drink.

Powdered alcohol is only 51% alcohol by weight.
151-proof Everclear is 75% alcohol by weight.

If weight is the issue, backpackers would be better off taking a flask of Everclear and diluting it with water before drinking it. (Plus they could use the Everclear as an antiseptic or for starting fires if they wanted.)

If volume is the issue, powdered alcohol fares even worse in comparison.

Powdered alcohol provides no benefit for backpackers.

 

[catsmate]

Powdered alcohol is only 51% alcohol by weight.
151-proof Everclear is 75% alcohol by weight.

If weight is the issue, backpackers would be better off taking a flask of Everclear and diluting it with water before drinking it. (Plus they could use the Everclear as an antiseptic or for starting fires if they wanted.)

If volume is the issue, powdered alcohol fares even worse in comparison.

Powdered alcohol provides no benefit for backpackers.

[OT] John Grimes had a device that mixed pure ethanol, flavouring/colouring mix and water to produce analogues of whisk(e)y, gin, brandy et cetera. Handy when travelling light.

 

[Trebuchet]

Powdered alcohol is only 51% alcohol by weight.
151-proof Everclear is 75% alcohol by weight.

If weight is the issue, backpackers would be better off taking a flask of Everclear and diluting it with water before drinking it. (Plus they could use the Everclear as an antiseptic or for starting fires if they wanted.)

If volume is the issue, powdered alcohol fares even worse in comparison.

Powdered alcohol provides no benefit for backpackers.

The packaging for the liquid ethanol is going to be heavier than that for the powder. Especially if it's glass.

 

[Brian-M]

The packaging for the liquid ethanol is going to be heavier than that for the powder. Especially if it's glass.

There's no obligation for the backpackers to keep the alcohol in its original container. Plus, the packaging would have to weigh about a third of the liquid its holding before it added up to the same as the powdered alcohol.

 

[Prometheus]

Back in school, we used to sneak booze into outdoor concerts and other events by injecting it into a whole watermelon. This sounds a lot easier.

 

[CORed]

I'm not sure I understand how this is supposed to be useful. It's only a bit more than 1/3 ethanol by mass. Wouldn't it be more weight-efficient to store alcohol as a high-concentration solution, like Everclear?

Yes, and everclear can double as stove fuel, if you have an alcohol stove. Taxes make it rather expensive stove fuel, though.

ETA: one third ethanol by mass makes it a bit heavier per mass unit of alcohol than 80 proof spirits. I don't really see the advantage.

 

[Hellbound]

The only advantage I could think of would have to do witht eh fact that pure alcohol is highly hydrophillic (is that the right word?)-it absorbs water readily and lowers it's concentration. Of course, I can't imagine it lowering enough to make a difference on a camping trip. Some sort of long-term bulk storage might make the palcohol come out ahead, though, if it doesn't show the same tendencies.

That's mostly guesswork, mind you

 

[dudalb]

Yeah, I've used that in backstory and plots in Call of Cthulhu; the 'Ginger Jake' epidemic was another example.

The good old "Jake Step".
What made the situation worse is that the bootleggers who used hijacked or stolen industrial alcohol for their hooch were less then careful about removing the adulterents.

 

[Emily's Cat]

We all drink the stuff for the taste.

Hey man, speak for yourself. Whiskey and Scotch drinkers usually consider taste to be pretty important.

Me, I like bourbon, and occasionally whiskey. I'm not man enough for scotch. Can't drink it without making the "scotch face".

 

[John Jones]

The only advantage I could think of would have to do witht eh fact that pure alcohol is highly hydrophillic (is that the right word?)-it absorbs water readily and lowers it's concentration. Of course, I can't imagine it lowering enough to make a difference on a camping trip. Some sort of long-term bulk storage might make the palcohol come out ahead, though, if it doesn't show the same tendencies.

That's mostly guesswork, mind you

Hygroscopic.

 

[pharphis]

Hm. As was discussed, deprotonating the ethanol with Na or K would work but then you're dealing with something very corrosive (and stinky iirc)

You could protonate it with HCl (off-hand i'm not sure if this would be stable in the solid-state as a salt) but then you're dealing with a strong acidic mixture