Leelah Alcorn, transgender teen, commited suicide

[Butter!]

It is another sexual preference.

Yes, but context would have told you it didn't really apply to this particular discussion. So is zoophilia, but that's not what we're talking about. Must every general statement include a specific disclaimer? Shouldn't context suffice in some cases?

 

[cullennz]

Yes, but context would have told you it didn't really apply to this particular discussion. So is zoophilia, but that's not what we're talking about. Must every general statement include a specific disclaimer? Shouldn't context suffice in some cases?

Fair point

Apologies

 

[Butter!]

Oh, I didn't mean it in a mean way, just to clarify.

 

[cullennz]

Presumably one who agrees that their urges are wrong and doesn't act on them. Kind of like Frodo having to resist the temptation to wear the ring.

I like the analogy!

 

[tyr_13]

Wow, I should have been following this thread.

Back to the main topic, Leelah Alcorn's suicide is very painful to me, because I'm the mother of a transgender daughter. She started hormones last year and has psychologically blossomed as she starts to feel more comfortable in her body. I wish I'd been able to reach out a helping hand to Leelah.

I'm gladdened to see that someone is handling the issue in such a supportive and productive manner. If anything productive comes from yet another tragedy like Leelah's passing, it will be that stories of support and hope get out with it. That there are people out there to help, who understand in some small way. That things can get better.

 

[newyorkguy]

I'm not sure if these figures have been posted here or not. I did a thread search and I didn't find anything related. I read this on a UK Facebook page dedicated to Leelah Alcorn and the figures seem to check out:

• In the U.S. 41% of people who are transgender attempt suicide.
• In the UK 48% of people who are transgender under the age of 26 attempt suicide.
• In Canada 43% of people who are transgender attempt suicide.

That's staggering. It is obviously a very traumatic process.

 

[shuttlt]

No doubt.

 

[Belz...]

Haha, this is getting crazy. For so many centuries, people in positions of authority rained down condemnation on gay men and women, telling them that they were wrong about what and whom they were into, and wrong to be into it at all.

And now some people condemn others who merely are saying they are not interested in an intimate relationship with certain people. How times change.

 

[Belz...]

Please tell me you don't include pedophiles in this broad statement

I would. Wouldn't you ? Do you think that the preference itself is wrong ?

 

[sadhatter]

How can you "choose a partner" based on whether they are trans or not trans? I don't think it's realistic in any way.

Here's the problem: how does courtship work? You meet somewhere, you talk, you text, you get together in some situation, you date. If dates are going well, the relationship advances to something sexual. In this whole process, where does the "trans" part matter? Only at the last step in this list.

OK, let's say you get to that step in the list, and you find out the person is trans. How will you respond? Oh, it's easy to say that you just drop them then and there, but are you sure? Maybe you've actually fell in love with this person? Even so, you can't say that you can't be attracted to a trans person, because, you know what? You have been, totally attracted to a trans person.

Or are you the type of person who can't love someone unless they have sex "the right way", the way you want? What if it was a female who wouldn't have sex but only gave blow jobs. If she told you that, would you dump her? Or is our attraction about so much more than just that?

So unless they tell you, or you have a taxi cab driver friend like Crocodile Dundee telling you someone is trans, I really don't know how you can "choose" a partner based on whether they are trans or not. A lot of romantic attraction happens before sex occurs.

I was once mistaken for a female during my especially unique dressing time , the gent was mortified to find out i was male, and i have never been Trans nor a cross dresser ( though admittedly i did ride the line lol). So i can digg mistakes happen, someone may digg someone who is ninety pounds, has people hair and is cute, but also does not want to mate with anyone who wasn't born female. I don't see how this is wrong or bigoted, if someone made tofu look like steak I'd still be pretty angry when i tried to eat it.

 

[Butter!]

And now some people condemn others who merely are saying they are not interested in an intimate relationship with certain people. How times change.

Right? Crazy.

 

[king catfish]

It should be, and for some of us it is. The problem is that certain other people here are using it as an excuse to demonize Leelah and dismiss her pain and suffering out of hand.

Then we are in full agreement. Sorry, I should have read the thread more closely. I think it's very sad that more people don't exercise their capacity for empathy, sympathy, or mercy. I just don't get it. I am about as far as one can get from someone in Leelah's situation, but it doesn't hurt me at all to allow her and those like her their life. (As if I could arrogate to myself the position of to "allowing" such a thing; I hope you understand what I mean by "allow".)

Too much wine, and I am tragically bad at the internet anyway, so I will bow out here.

 

[king catfish]

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I said earlier that no penis IS a sexual dealbreaker for me. And no sex is ultimately a romantic dealbreaker. So, by the transitive property of equalities, no penis is ultimately a romantic dealbreaker.

I can't help that. Outside of a sexual/romantic context, I don't care a fig what bits anyone has, have no problem acknowledging them as the gender they please, happily welcome them into whatever restroom they want, etc. It certainly wouldn't affect a friendship, living arrangement, or any other type of non-sexual relationship I might have with the individual. But I need a penis in a mate, period. I know that absolutely.

Is this bigotry? Surely not?


ETA - I should say no sexever is ultimately a romantic dealbreaker. I'm certainly more than patient in that area. But there's no amount of build-up that could make me sexually attracted to lady-bits. There just isn't. We could be the best of dear friends in the world, but sex wouldn't work. If it's a hang-up, then it's a hang-up I guess.

I think this is perfectly clear and reasonable. This is how I feel, substituting vagina for penis, I guess. I could not have said it this well, though, thank you.

 

[Butter!]

Thank you, king catfish.

 

[Meadmaker]

On the subject of condemning the parents:

Let's keep in mind we know almost nothing about the child and her relationships or her history. We see everything as if being transgender were the only issue this kid had, but we don't know that. I was critical of the parents for removing her contact with her social network by pulling her out of normal school, but even in that case, we don't know if there were other issues or reasons to pull her out.

So we can say that the parents ought to have respected her decision to self identify as female, but let's not be too quick to say that somehow their actions caused her suicide. We really don't know what else was going on in her life, and ultimately, she chose (if that's the right word) her own actions.

On the subject of who we would sleep with:

I will join others in noting that it's weird that so many people who would loudly affirm the right to choose whatever consenting adult sexual partners one wishes would have a problem that someone would reject a sexual partner for reasons that the observers don't agree with.

On that note, though, I am not sure, but I think pwengthold has been misunderstood. I think what he is saying, he can correct me if I'm wrong, is that however loudly one might affirm their preference today, it is always possible that, finding yourself in an unexpected situation, one might choose something that you never anticipated. Lots of people who said "I would never......" ended up doing it anyway, for quite a few values of "it".

 

[Meadmaker]

Recognize that this is a bias so that you can isolate it. Do this so that you don't vote and influence the world for gender apartheid.

"Gender apartheid"?

I'm not sure, but I might be for it. I'm certain that I am for separation of male and female locker rooms, which is what I was talking about, and I guess that's one form of "apartheid".

And if you really wanted to just have one set of locker rooms for all, I wouldn't mind, and neither would most men. But, that's the thing. Most men wouldn't mind. Most women wouldn't like it. It's almost as if men and women were somehow.....different....even beyond the shape and function of their sexual organs.

 

[xjx388]

On that note, though, I am not sure, but I think pwengthold has been misunderstood. I think what he is saying, he can correct me if I'm wrong, is that however loudly one might affirm their preference today, it is always possible that, finding yourself in an unexpected situation, one might choose something that you never anticipated. Lots of people who said "I would never......" ended up doing it anyway, for quite a few values of "it".

I suppose it's possible but I cannot imagine the situation that would cause me to upend my deep-rooted sexual preferences. Even so, what I object to is being told that my sexual preferences are irrational or stupid. That sounds very much like arguments against homosexuality: "Two men having sex makes no damn sense!"

 

[cullennz]

I would. Wouldn't you ? Do you think that the preference itself is wrong ?

You dont think it should be discouraged?

 

[colander]

"Gender apartheid"?

I'm not sure, but I might be for it. I'm certain that I am for separation of male and female locker rooms, which is what I was talking about, and I guess that's one form of "apartheid".

And if you really wanted to just have one set of locker rooms for all, I wouldn't mind, and neither would most men. But, that's the thing. Most men wouldn't mind. Most women wouldn't like it. It's almost as if men and women were somehow.....different....even beyond the shape and function of their sexual organs.

I'm not sure what makes you think you're in a position to know what women in general will or won't tolerate in a locker room, but trans and cis women have certainly shared them before without any riots fomenting.

 

[Butter!]

I can only speak for myself and women I know, but none of us had a problem with a transwomen who used to attend our gym sharing our locker room. Now, she was shy and always changed in the stalls and didn't shower there. But if she had, I truly wouldn't have minded.

Now, this was when I lived in a much more liberal/progressive/whatever city. In the town where I live now (temporarily!), that sort of thing would be unlikely to fly. And I think that sucks.

"Eeek, a penis! My fragile feminine eyes, oh my stars, deliver me!" Please. We're adults. I guess it's unkind of me to mock someone's personal comforts or levels of comfort that way, but I can't help it. It's silly. What's the bad old penis going to do, even if we do happen to glimpse it?

Is it different if it's the sort of locker room where there are children in addition to adults? Um, maybe. I'll have to think about that one a bit.