Leelah Alcorn, transgender teen, commited suicide

[dirtywick]

And again, gay men do not want to date trans women even if these women have a penis. But at least some gay men will date transmen even if they do not have a penis.

I suspect despite your statements about being into vagina, you wouldn't date a transman. When on testosterone for a while transmen have very little issue with passing after all.

I didn't say gay men want to date trans women. I said nobody should be telling anyone how they're wrong about their sexual preferences and cited the treatment of gays as an example of how doing so was foolish.

 

[deadrose]

But does this then mean The Gay can be cured?

No, I think it means that sexuality is not a pure binary for many people, and they can envision situations outside of their usual experiences.

Dude, there are fetishists out there matching every description. I'm not kidding. If you can even sorta-halfway imagine it, someone out there is wildly into it.

Good ol' Rule 34!

 

[ponderingturtle]

I didn't say gay men want to date trans women. I said nobody should be telling anyone how they're wrong about their sexual preferences and cited the treatment of gays as an example of how doing so was foolish.

No you were making it all about genitalia. I suspect you would not be interested in Buck Angel or Billy Castro despite their having genitalia you are into.

 

[dirtywick]

No you were making it all about genitalia. I suspect you would not be interested in Buck Angel or Billy Castro despite their having genitalia you are into.

No, I was responding to a person discussing genitalia. Besides, it's only a page back for you to read what people are actually writing instead of suspecting things about people you don't know.

 

[Butter!]

No you were making it all about genitalia. I suspect you would not be interested in Buck Angel or Billy Castro despite their having genitalia you are into.

I don't know that he was making it all about genitalia. I took it as him saying genitalia's sort of the bottom line. So even if he met a man with whom he had a really special relationship that could border on romantic, it wouldn't cross over, because of the penis's role.

That's how I feel about women, anyway (substituting vagina for penis of course). And like I said, I have tried.

I don't want to put words in dirtywick's mouth, of course. But that's how I understood his position, in relation to my own.


ETA - Ninja'd by the man himself.

 

[shuttlt]

No, I think it means that sexuality is not a pure binary for many people, and they can envision situations outside of their usual experiences.

I've no objection to this. Categories are so often simplifications of underlying, complicated reality. Hard to do without them though.

 

[TomB]

We may say that, but see my scenario above. You meet an attractive woman, go through initial courting rituals, and everything is perfect except you find out 2 mos down the road that she has a penis.

He may have been assuming that she had a vagina, but clearly having a vagina was not what he was "looking for." He was looking for so much more than in a mate, and we all do.

I can confidently say that two months in, a penis would be a dealbreaker. For me to be satisfied sexually, I require my partner to have a vagina. The alternatives just don't do it for me.

Leaving aside reproductive issues, I guess I would possibly be more open to post-op, but I'm not really sure how I would react to that. Not violently, mind you, but I'm not sure how I would react psychologically. I suspect that once I was aware of it, I would suddenly notice all of the masculine features that I didn't see before. The problem is that information changes perception. It's not a voluntary thing.

Waiting until well into a relationship MAY highlight enough compatibility in other areas that SOME men/women can get past it. If so, it might not be smooth and may result in misgivings on the other side based upon the initial reaction.

On the other hand, it may make things even WORSE. Someone who has just invested a significant amount of time in developing a relationship may not react well when they find that the future is (to their mind) what they envisioned.

And now it's hard to express
The resentment I feel
For the years that I've pissed away on you

-H-a-t-r-e-d by Tonio K.

Some straight men may be into the she-male thing out of a sense of taboo. Thrilling for the moment but not as an ongoing relationship. Or in the case of porn/fantasy terms only. What turns us on as porn is not necessarily what we want to explore in real life.

The other thing is that when you get into a relationship with someone, you take on a lot of their issues: family, finances, health, etc. Unfortunately, whether it should or not, dating or marrying a transgender person has implications that someone may or may not be willing (or able) to take on.

 

[shuttlt]

I don't know that he was making it all about genitalia. I took it as him saying genitalia's sort of the bottom line. So even if he met a man with whom he had a really special relationship that could border on romantic, it wouldn't cross over, because of the penis's role.

The world is a funny place. I see nothing in a penis that one would cross the street for. It mystifies me that you, or any woman, gay man or what ever, would feel that way. The curve of a hip though, now you're talking. All so aparantly arbitrary, yet invested with so much.

 

[Butter!]

The world is a funny place. I see nothing in a penis that one would cross the street for. It mystifies me that you, or any woman, gay man or what ever, would feel that way. The curve of a hip though, now you're talking. All so aparantly arbitrary, yet invested with so much.

Indeed, such is the beauty and mystery of human sexuality, I reckon.

 

[dirtywick]

I don't know that he was making it all about genitalia. I took it as him saying genitalia's sort of the bottom line. So even if he met a man with whom he had a really special relationship that could border on romantic, it wouldn't cross over, because of the penis's role.

That's how I feel about women, anyway (substituting vagina for penis of course). And like I said, I have tried.

I don't want to put words in dirtywick's mouth, of course. But that's how I understood his position, in relation to my own.


ETA - Ninja'd by the man himself.

Well first of all I'm not trying to personalize any of this.

I'm not saying it's always bottom line. I'm saying it's important enough for some people that they would not consider a relationship with another person of the same sex, and that there are people who are self aware enough to know this and state it, and that it's OK to feel that way. I would also say that genitals are more integral to a person's identity than tattoos, hair color, body shape, whatever else you want to compare it to and that many people would have a much more difficult time overlooking an incompatible (for them) set of genitals than many, many other factors in choosing a mate.

I'm also saying that the position genitals have no bearing on sexual orientation, preferences, and gender is absurd.

 

[Butter!]

Well first of all I'm not trying to personalize any of this.

I'm not saying it's always bottom line. I'm saying it's important enough for some people that they would not consider a relationship with another person of the same sex, and that there are people who are self aware enough to know this and state it, and that it's OK to feel that way. I would also say that genitals are more integral to a person's identity than tattoos, hair color, body shape, whatever else you want to compare it to and that many people would have a much more difficult time overlooking an incompatible (for them) set of genitals than many, many other factors in choosing a mate.

I'm also saying that the position genitals have no bearing on sexual orientation, preferences, and gender is absurd.

Very much agree.

Sorry if I worded some things wrong. I've been at this too long.

 

[cullennz]

I didn't say gay men want to date trans women. I said nobody should be telling anyone how they're wrong about their sexual preferences and cited the treatment of gays as an example of how doing so was foolish.

Please tell me you don't include pedophiles in this broad statement

 

[ponderingturtle]

Please tell me you don't include pedophiles in this broad statement

I would. Of course the problem is that ethical pedophiles have real problems as they can't get a lot of support with out being labeled as child molesters.

At least most people here are fine with dumping someone because they used to date someone who was black. Because any reason is perfectly acceptable to refuse to date someone. After all you just know they will be going back.

 

[dirtywick]

Very much agree.

Sorry if I worded some things wrong. I've been at this too long.

I appreciate that you tried to clarify things, so thank you.

 

[Butter!]

I would. Of course the problem is that ethical pedophiles have real problems as they can't get a lot of support with out being labeled as child molesters.

At least most people here are fine with dumping someone because they used to date someone who was black. Because any reason is perfectly acceptable to refuse to date someone. After all you just know they will be going back.

Your first paragraph, I completely agree with. Your second - WTF?

You seriously equate someone having insurmountable inborn genital/physical preferences to a racist bigot who would dump someone because of the race of a former lover of theirs? How can you justify that?

Am I misreading you?

ETA - Bisexual and pansexual people exist all over the place. But the reason we have terms for those sorts of sexualities is because they don't apply to everyone. Heterosexuality is not bigotry. Homosexuality is not bigotry.

It seems to me that you're saying anyone who isn't bi- or pansexual is wrong or somehow unethical. Surely this isn't so. Please clarify?

 

[dirtywick]

Please tell me you don't include pedophiles in this broad statement

Obviously I am not promoting pedophilia, jesus.

 

[cullennz]

I would. Of course the problem is that ethical pedophiles have real problems as they can't get a lot of support with out being labeled as child molesters.

"What is an ethical pedophile?"

 

[cullennz]

Obviously I am not promoting pedophilia, jesus.

It is another sexual preference.

 

[Butter!]

"What is an ethical pedophile?"

An ethical pedophile is a pedophile who does not offend. They do what they can to suppress and live with their condition without ever hurting or abusing a child. They are out there, and due to current social attitudes, it is very difficult for them to obtain therapy or support.

 

[shuttlt]

"What is an ethical pedophile?"

Presumably one who agrees that their urges are wrong and doesn't act on them. Kind of like Frodo having to resist the temptation to wear the ring.