Are they doing it because they are indifferent to it, or because they've got a fetish for it? What ever the reason, they are clearly psychologically different to me. Nature, nurture or what, I don't know.
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Leelah Alcorn, transgender teen, commited suicide
- Thread starter patchbunny
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ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
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Given the premium that they earn it isn't because they don't care, it is because some men are interested in penis's but not in men.
Butter!
Rough Around the Edges
Yes, true. This is a specific fetish. My ex had it. He was straight, but enjoyed watching pornography of very feminine-appearing pre-op transwomen. He only dated women, and did not enjoy two attempted hook-ups he'd had with men.
To my knowledge, he never had real life sexual contact with a transwoman (didn't seem to want to take it out of the realm of fantasy), but it wouldn't have bothered me even a little if he had.
There are tons of people who would insist, "Nah, he was gay and in deep denial." Nope. They'd be wrong. Never was there a more open individual concerning honest exploration of sexuality. His fetish was limited to that one specific category.
Lol, I miss him.
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pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
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I've made the distinction between the non-starter and the dealbreaker.
The problem is that trans can't really be a non-starter unless you have been told about it.
But this is not unique to this situation. There are always things we learn about our partners as time goes on that, had we known about those things initially we might not have initiated the relationship. See the tattoo example. Someone may think they are repulsed by tattoos and won't date anyone with a tattoo. So if they see someone in the coffeeshop with a visible tattoo, they don't start up. However, the same person has the tattoo not visible, they start up a relationship, have some fun and then the person discovers the other has the tattoo. At this point, it's a very different situation. That same tattoo that was a non-starter ends up being just one of those things you overlook once you are involved.
Now imagine she has a penis. Again, it's very different learning it two months into a relationship than knowing it from the outset.
And what is the thing with homosexuals? In this scenario, it's already presented that you are attracted to this person. so the issue of what you find attractive is already addressed. You consider this person to be attractive right up to the point you discover the penis, and so your "sexual orientation" is pretty much irrelevant. Your orientation is that everything up to that point has made this person attractive to you as a potential mate.
Just a minor quibble: a lot of trans people who commit suicide certainly dwell on thoughts like "no one will ever love me", but involuntary celibacy would probably be the bottom of the list of reasons why trans people attempt suicide.
At the top of that list would be lifetime of untreated gender dysphoria and being unable to integrate successfully into their target gender. Secondary reasons can include loss of job and livelihood, loss of friends, being rejected by spouse and children, being ostracized from church or other important social communities. Tertiary reasons include systemic discrimination in housing, employment, and access to healthcare.
Some trans people commit suicide for other reasons. For example, the stress of being a transwoman who is serving time in a male prison. The stress of multiple minority status, such as being trans and a felon, or homeless, or a ward of the state, or the child of illegal immigrants, etc.
One of the saddest cases I'm aware of was a transwoman who had come out to her parents at the age of 16. Her parents kicked her out of the house immediately. She had unstable housing, alternating between sleeping on friends couches and sleeping under a park bench. She made a mistake which resulted in a felony drug conviction. (Not sure which drug but certain cues in her physical appearance suggested meth.) After serving her sentence in a male facility in Iowa, she could not find an employer who would hire a felon, nor any apartment would not rent to felons. One apartment owner in particular told her that he didn't think people with her "lifestyle" should be living so close to a school where young children play. I met her at a PFLAG meeting where she told her story. She could not see her quality of life improving for the foreseeable future, no matter how many times people told her "its gets better". She killed herself about a year later. Her reasons for committing suicide are very complex; the best words to characterize her experience is that she had "fallen through the cracks of society".
Stories like that and Leelah's case are very sad not only because they result in a young person killing themselves, but that they are so easily preventable with proper family support.
By contrast, transgender success stories usually involve a strong support network of friends and family. Successfully transitioned people who feel comfortable in their own skin and are well integrated into their target gender generally do not commit suicide at any greater or lesser rate than the general population.
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Belz...
Fiend God
I don't understand your problem with the idea that some things are dealbreakers to some people. Don't we all have our wants and don't-wants about a number of things ?
Butter!
Rough Around the Edges
Well, I think it's easier to label something a dealbreaker if it has, in fact, broken a deal for you in the past (several, in fact). But, fine. Maybe the person is out there somewhere who is so special in some way that his/her lady-parts will work as well for me as a penis, better even. Maybe. Maybe that teapot really is orbiting Earth somewhere too.
But knowing my past reactions, I would be unlikely to take the risk of dating someone with that anatomy, knowing that past attempts have failed and not wanting to subject the person to rejection or even shame.
Can I say that?
But knowing my past reactions, I would be unlikely to take the risk of dating someone with that anatomy, knowing that past attempts have failed and not wanting to subject the person to rejection or even shame.
Can I say that?
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This question has been asked and answers a bunch of times. My answer remains, it's a big bump in the road. It feels to me like a far smaller bump if it turned out she was a pre-op ftm. There are presumably such rare beasts out there as gay, pre-op f2m transsexuals? One of them would be fine.
I'm not saying being born male is an unclimbable bump, but it's a big one. If you don't believe me, fine all I can do is to repeat my suggestion to ask a trans sexual whether the average non fetishist cis guy finds it a trivial nothing or a significant problem.
I'm not saying being born male is an unclimbable bump, but it's a big one. If you don't believe me, fine all I can do is to repeat my suggestion to ask a trans sexual whether the average non fetishist cis guy finds it a trivial nothing or a significant problem.
xjx388
Penultimate Amazing
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I could go on a date with an attractive woman. We could have dinner and have a great conversation. She could play footsie with me and turn me on. Then, as we are leaving, she could reach in her purse and pull out a cigarette. Boom, I'm done -not interested.
I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about this. Most men are going to have a similar reaction if the woman they are dating pulled out a penis (or turned out to be post-surgery trans ). Some may be able to get past it, but I'd be willing to bet most wouldn't.
I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about this. Most men are going to have a similar reaction if the woman they are dating pulled out a penis (or turned out to be post-surgery trans ). Some may be able to get past it, but I'd be willing to bet most wouldn't.
deadrose
Illuminator
You do realise that Oscar Wilde was married & had children, right?
There are also several recent generations of people that would "go gay in a heartbeat" for certain people, including but not limited to: Mick Jagger, David Bowie, Siouxsie Sioux, John Barrowman, Angelina Jolie, etc.
I've also run into LGB people who feel the same way for certain opposite-sex people. So preference is apparently not that immutable, or people from the 1960s onward are somehow different from preceding generations.
Back to the main topic, Leelah Alcorn's suicide is very painful to me, because I'm the mother of a transgender daughter. She started hormones last year and has psychologically blossomed as she starts to feel more comfortable in her body. I wish I'd been able to reach out a helping hand to Leelah.
Butter!
Rough Around the Edges
That's wonderful deadrose.
It's so good to hear in the wake of something like this that for every bad, bigoted parent out there, there's an understanding, accepting, loving, and supportive one somewhere else.
I do. Two of them. I have a book by his son. I picked him as much as anything because he's a gay icon and had sex with rent boys. it was a poor choice, I agree.
But does this then mean The Gay can be cured?
dirtywick
Penultimate Amazing
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It's also very different than a tattoo. But regardless, I think you'd find people who would both stop and continue the relationship in both cases. I don't understand why you won't acknowledge the fact that some people are self aware enough to know whether or not they want to have a sexual relationship with a person with their non-preferred genitals.
Sexual orientation is relevant because up until the penis is whipped out the relationship is nonsexual. A man not wanting a penis inside him is going to have a hard time dating a person with a penis whether they find that out on day 1 or 100.
The thing with homosexuals is they had been told for decades that if they tried hard enough, believed hard enough, they could stop wanting penises and start wanting vaginas. Some even went on to have marriages and children and still that didn't change. I don't know why you seem to insist that's not the case with regards to trans relationships.
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
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And again, gay men do not want to date trans women even if these women have a penis. But at least some gay men will date transmen even if they do not have a penis.
I suspect despite your statements about being into vagina, you wouldn't date a transman. When on testosterone for a while transmen have very little issue with passing after all.
You sure there aren't any fetishists out there matching this description?
Butter!
Rough Around the Edges
Haha, this is getting crazy. For so many centuries, people in positions of authority rained down condemnation on gay men and women, telling them that they were wrong about what and whom they were into, and wrong to be into it at all. We now recognize those people as nasty, misguided bigots.
A bigot is NOT, on the other hand, someone who knows and states his or her own preferences! Let's not get carried away, right?
A bigot is NOT, on the other hand, someone who knows and states his or her own preferences! Let's not get carried away, right?
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Butter!
Rough Around the Edges
Dude, there are fetishists out there matching every description.
I'm not kidding. If you can even sorta-halfway imagine it, someone out there is wildly into it. Fine by me, lol.
ETA - *necessarry disclaimer* Unless of course said fetish involves non-consenting (or unable to consent) partners, grievous bodily harms, psychological abuses, etc. I probably don't have to add that, but figured I'd better just to be safe and thorough.
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The day I discovered there were girls who were into somewhat nerdy boys, I stopped looking any further.Dude, there are fetishists out there matching every description.
Long live a multiplicity of tastes.Butter!
Rough Around the Edges
The day I discovered there were girls who were into somewhat nerdy boys, I stopped looking any further.
Hear, hear!
(And count me amongst their number.
)