The Historical Jesus II

[dejudge]

The evidence is overwhelming that up to at least the 5th century there was no contemporary [1st century] history of Jesus, and the Jesus cult of Christians.

I am actually exposing the hogwash [fiction and mythology] found in writings of antiquity about Jesus, Paul and the disciples.

Brainache, I will continue to show that the history of Jesus, Paul and the disciples is always the same ignorant hogwash [fiction and mythology] from the 2nd century or later.

Second century, fifth CENTURY! You're still jumping about FROM century to century in post after post. And you HAVE the audacity to accuse other people of "hogwash"; but I think your hogs ARE THE cleanest on the farm because you wash them so MUCH.

Why are your posts so mis-leading and disruptive? It is Brainache who accused people here of "hogwash". See post #2449.

Didn't you accuse Christian writers as "Medieval Bigots".

You have the audacity to make blatant fallacious claims.

Now, didn't I write that "City of God" is attributed to Augustine of Hippo in which it is claimed Seneca did not mention the Christians?

Seneca was a contemporary of Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius Claudius and Nero.

Seneca did NOT mention the Christians of the 1st century pre 70 CE in "Against Superstitions".

It was Lucian of Samosata and Celsus of the LATE 2nd century who mentioned Christians who worshiped a crucified man.

The evidence from antiquity adds up very nicely.

It is from the 2nd century that Non-Apologetic writers began to mention Christians who worshiped a crucified man.

It is also in the LATE 2nd century c 180 CE when Irenaeus introduced ALL FAKE authors of the Gospels and the Pauline Corpus to [falsely] argue that the Jesus stories were known and composed before the FALL of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE and that the Jesus cult predated the Heretics.

The author of "Against Heresies" introduced ALL FAKE pre 70 CE authors because there was no history of the authors of Gospels, Paul and the Pauline Corpus BEFORE the so-called Heretics.

We know the names of the authors of the so-called Heresies but know NOTHING of a single author of a Jesus story or Pauline letter.

Simon Magus, Menander, Valentinus, Basilides, Saturnilus, the Marcians and Marcion PREDATE the Fake authors of the Gospels, the multiple Pauls and the Pauline Corpus.

Up to at least the 5th century, there was no contemporary [1st century] history of Jesus, Paul and the disciples.

 

[IanS]

I have already quoted a source indicating that papyrus was used across the Roman Empire. http://www.lib.umich.edu/papyrology-collection/where-do-papyri-come
I am not guessing that papyrus has crumbled away in Judaea. I am reasonably inferring that it was used there for casual writings - not for reference books like the DSS, as my sources argue. If Paul wrote letters, papyrus was surely the medium he used.

You were not being asked about any old papyrus. You are being asked how you know that there were original stories of Jesus written in Judea before the time when the “copies” were produced in Egypt?

You claimed that the only reason the Jesus stories come to us from Egypt is because that's where the papyrus copies did not “crumble away”. I am asking you how you know there ever was any earlier writing of those same Jesus NT stories in Judea?

 

[Craig B]

You claimed that the only reason the Jesus stories come to us from Egypt is because that's where the papyrus copies did not “crumble away”. I am asking you how you know there ever was any earlier writing of those same Jesus NT stories in Judea?

What is ridiculous in this exchange is that you are citing the preservation of papyrus documents (of which I have invoked several genres) in Egypt, as evidence that more works in these genres were composed in Egypt.

There are more surviving bank statements and love letters, as we have seen. Do I need to prove that in other areas people wrote love letters or received bank statements, even though they have not survived? Am I to assume that bonking and banking happened only, or especially, in Egypt, because the medium of record of these activities survives there most abundantly?

 

[IanS]

What is ridiculous in this exchange is that you are citing the preservation of papyrus documents (of which I have invoked several genres) in Egypt, as evidence that more works in these genres were composed in Egypt.

There are more surviving bank statements and love letters, as we have seen. Do I need to prove that in other areas people wrote love letters or received bank statements, even though they have not survived? Am I to assume that bonking and banking happened only, or especially, in Egypt, because the medium of record of these activities survives there most abundantly?

All totally irrelevant - you are not being asked about ANY of that.

You are claiming the reason NT papyrus writing about Jesus has been found abundantly in Egypt but not at all in Judea, is because in Judea it has all crumbled away ... I am asking you how you know that any such writing was ever produced in Judea?




footnote - you also failed to explain what stopped any NT writers doing as the DSS writers did, and writing on parchment instead of papyrus.

 

[dejudge]

I am reasonably inferring that it was used there for casual writings - not for reference books like the DSS, as my sources argue. If Paul wrote letters, papyrus was surely the medium he used.

You are speculating. You have no contemporary evidence of an historical Paul and no manuscripts of the Jesus story on Papyri pre 70 CE.

The Anonymous authors of the Pauline Corpus did write letters on Papyri in the 2nd century or later and many Christians and Non Christian writers of the 2nd century or later also showed NO awareness of the Pauline Corpus.

The evidence adds up very nicely.

There is no need to speculate when there is evidence from antiquity.

The Pauline Corpus most likely originated in the 2nd century or later.

 

[Craig B]

All totally irrelevant - you are not being asked about ANY of that.

You are claiming the reason NT papyrus writing about Jesus has been found abundantly in Egypt but not at all in Judea, is because in Judea it has all crumbled away ... I am asking you how you know that any such writing was ever produced in Judea?

And I am asking you why you are citing preservation of papyrus in Egypt as evidence that the kinds of writings on the surviving manuscripts were preferentially composed in Egypt. Are you stating that there were no bankers or bonkers except in Egypt? Are you stating that Paul didn't exist, or didn't write; or if he wrote letters, didn't use the medium normally used for the purpose?

You're asking me if papyrus crumbled away in Judaea. It did. If we look at the provenance of p46

... it was probably originally discovered in the ruins of an early Christian church or monastery. Following the discovery in Cairo ...

You infer from this that Paul lived in Egypt? Or that early papyri survive better there?

footnote - you also failed to explain what stopped any NT writers doing as the DSS writers did, and writing on parchment instead of papyrus.

Wonga. Once the Church became more wealthy, and once the NT epistles became reference Holy Books used in liturgies, an application for which, as I have argued, papyrus is not appropriate, the replication in parchment took place, no doubt.

 

[IanS]

And I am asking you why you are citing preservation of papyrus in Egypt as evidence that the kinds of writings on the surviving manuscripts were preferentially composed in Egypt. Are you stating that there were no bankers or bonkers except in Egypt? Are you stating that Paul didn't exist, or didn't write; or if he wrote letters, didn't use the medium normally used for the purpose?

You're asking me if papyrus crumbled away in Judaea. It did. If we look at the provenance of p46 You infer from this that Paul lived in Egypt? Or that early papyri survive better there? Wonga. Once the Church became more wealthy, and once the NT epistles became reference Holy Books used in liturgies, an application for which, as I have argued, papyrus is not appropriate, the replication in parchment took place, no doubt.

What? That's three replies from you now without you making any attempt whatsoever to answer the question. You are prevaricating and trying to change the subject ... here is the question again (!) -

- if you think all NT biblical writing from Judea has crumbled away and nothing is left, then how do you know that there ever was any such NT biblical writing in Judea?





Footnote (again!) - afaik P46 was found in Egypt, not in Judea!

Next footnote (again!) - the entire issue of why these remains have been found "only"(?) in Egypt and not in Judea, was (repeat!) in any case only a final passing remark in a post that was all about the listed points for why the miniscule half-sentence "save James, the lord brother" was by no means definitive for a human Jesus ... that came from me following several other posters commenting on that (inc. you iirc!), and yet you chose to ignore all of that central issue and complain instead about the final remark of how all the NT writing seems to have been produced(?) in Egypt.

 

[Craig B]

What? That's three replies from you now without you making any attempt whatsoever to answer the question. You are prevaricating and trying to change the subject ... here is the question again (!) -

When you address me in these imperious terms, as you have done before, I think, I recall my previous resolve not to respond. Good day.

 

[IanS]

When you address me in these imperious terms, as you have done before, I think, I recall my previous resolve not to respond. Good day.

Ahh, so you are now going to feign indignation and hurt feelings just because yet again you cannot find a decent explanation for the claims you make in support of your belief in a HJ .

Look, it does not matter to me if Jesus existed or not. And it does not matter if original gospels etc. were written Judea. They might have been; who knows?

But the actual fact is that it's purely a guess for you to say they would have been originally in Judea but are now lost without trace, all crumbled away. And it's a guess which appears to be predicated on your prior belief that Jesus was indeed alive in Judea and hence that's where the original gospels would have been written.

But what if Jesus was never in Judea at all? What if the entire Jesus story was created somewhere else, such as Egypt? That would certainly explain why "all" (is it "all"?) the extant copies and fragments have been found only(??) in Egypt.

It's not a big deal point. So you should not get indignant or upset about it. Not in the slightest. But it's just yet one more factor in what is now an absolute mountain of suspicious revelations about how weak and suspicious all the claimed evidence of Jesus really is ... for most of the last 2000 years that evidence has always been presented as totally overwhelming, and almost everyone unhesitatingly accepted that position from the church and bible scholars without actually knowing what that evidence really was/is ...

... only now, courtesy of a growing number of more scholarly books from numerous sceptic academics, not too mention the self-inflicted "shot-in-the-foot" books from Bart Ehrman and his "expert" bible colleagues, we know that what they have been calling "evidence" so overwhelming as to say Jesus "certainly" lived, in fact amounts to not a single shred of any reliable or credible evidence at all.

 

[dejudge]

...Look, it does not matter to me if Jesus existed or not. And it does not matter if original gospels etc. were written Judea. They might have been; who knows?.....

It does matter to me whether or not Jesus of Nazareth did exist. It does matter whether or not the Gospels were written in Judea.

The evidence from antiquity for history of the Church does matter to me.

It is because those things matter why the evidence from antiquity must be examined.

Based on the abundance of existing evidence from antiquity Jesus of Nazareth had no real existence including the character called Paul.

But in any event, the HJ argument was always baseless since it was initiated without the supporting contemporary historical data and derived from admitted discredited sources [Canonised Bible stories] dated by Paleographers to the 2nd century or later and riddled with forgeries, falase attribution, historical problems, discrepancies, contradictions and events that did not and could not have happen.

It is matters to me that the supposed first writing "Against Heresies" introduced ALL FAKE authors to argue that the Jesus story in the NT Canon was historically credible and authentic.

The Jesus story could not have been historically credible and authentic when ALL the authors of the Jesus stories were FAKES.

Even Bart Ehrman in "Did Jesus Exist?" admitted Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did NOT write the Gospel and also admitted that the Pauline Corpus is not the product of a single author.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

But what if Jesus was never in Judea at all? What if the entire Jesus story was created somewhere else, such as Egypt? That would certainly explain why "all" (is it "all"?) the extant copies and fragments have been found only(??) in Egypt.

I believe his argument is that a rather better explanation for why Egypt had all the extant papyrus fragments is because Egypt had all the extant fragments of everything written on papyrus. Papyrus simply didn't survive anywhere else.

Your argument is a bit like saying the Norse gods must have been invented in Iceland, because that's where we found the Eddas.

 

[IanS]

I believe his argument is that a rather better explanation for why Egypt had all the extant papyrus fragments is because Egypt had all the extant fragments of everything written on papyrus. Papyrus simply didn't survive anywhere else.

Your argument is a bit like saying the Norse gods must have been invented in Iceland, because that's where we found the Eddas.

Yes I know perfectly well what his argument is. And I have very carefully avoided any suggestion of me saying “must have been” about anything here.

However, fragments and even some complete extensive documents from over 900 DSS scrolls did survive in precisely that same region close to Jerusalem, and those scrolls are mostly said to date from probably at least several centuries before any known NT biblical gospels and letters.

So if a DSS community in that same location could leave surviving writing then presumably it would not have been impossible for the NT biblical writers to have left traces of whatever they wrote in Judea?

Also, IF the extant copies from Egypt were actually written in Egypt, then why was the Jesus story being written in Egypt at all? The copyists were presumably being paid by wealthy benefactors who wanted to have the Jesus stories? But why? Who was paying for this writing and why?

It just raises all sorts of suspicious questions if the NT biblical writing of Jesus events in Galilee c.30AD, turns out to have been produced in Egypt.

But apart from any of that - if it's true that no biblical fragments have been found in Judea, and that "all"(?) the known fragments etc. appear to have been produced instead in Egypt, then the plain fact of that matter is that the known evidence of the Jesus stories appears to be come from Egypt and not from Judea.

It’s just yet one more unsatisfactory and faintly suspicious factor amongst a whole mass of highly dubious Jesus “evidences”.

 

[Brainache]

Yes I know perfectly well what his argument is. And I have very carefully avoided any suggestion of me saying “must have been” about anything here.

However, fragments and even some complete extensive documents from over 900 DSS scrolls did survive in precisely that same region close to Jerusalem, and those scrolls are mostly said to date from probably at least several centuries before any known NT biblical gospels and letters.

So if a DSS community in that same location could leave surviving writing then presumably it would not have been impossible for the NT biblical writers to have left traces of whatever they wrote in Judea?

Also, IF the extant copies from Egypt were actually written in Egypt, then why was the Jesus story being written in Egypt at all? The copyists were presumably being paid by wealthy benefactors who wanted to have the Jesus stories? But why? Who was paying for this writing and why?

It just raises all sorts of suspicious questions if the NT biblical writing of Jesus events in Galilee c.30AD, turns out to have been produced in Egypt.

But apart from any of that - if it's true that no biblical fragments have been found in Judea, and that "all"(?) the known fragments etc. appear to have been produced instead in Egypt, then the plain fact of that matter is that the known evidence of the Jesus stories appears to be come from Egypt and not from Judea.

It’s just yet one more unsatisfactory and faintly suspicious factor amongst a whole mass of highly dubious Jesus “evidences”.

Seriously man, you should study a bit of Ancient History before you pontificate about the study of Ancient History.

The DSS were written mostly on Parchment, stored in jars and buried in caves in the desert. While some of them maybe date from 100 BCE, some (notably the sectarian "Pesharim") most probably date from the 1st century CE.

If the early Christians in Judea wrote anything on Papyrus, it has long since disintegrated. If they wrote on parchment, then unless they stored them in jars buried in caves in the desert, they too would have disintegrated by now.

The idea that all of the Christian traditions came from Egypt needs a better explanation than "that's where we found the papyrus". Who invented these stories in Egypt? "Hoax Forgers!"... When? "In the 2nd to fourth centuries!"... Why? "To explain the fall of the Jewish Temple!"... Makes no sense at all.

Why are Egyptian fake hoax forgers trying to explain why the Romans put down a provincial revolt by inventing a crucified Jewish Messiah?... "$$$Prophet!$$$"...

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Yes I know perfectly well what his argument is. And I have very carefully avoided any suggestion of me saying “must have been” about anything here.

And that's enough for me. I have no patience with arguments which need to "very carefully avoid any suggestion" of outright stating their implied conclusions, for fear of having to actually support them.

 

[IanS]

And that's enough for me. I have no patience with arguments which need to "very carefully avoid any suggestion" of outright stating their implied conclusions, for fear of having to actually support them.

What?

The "argument" from me is that finding the writing only in Egypt is yet one more fact that raises doubts about where this story was ever written in the first place.

You want that suspicion to have "support"? Well it is apparently "supported" (not according to me, but afaik according to all the reports of where those gospels and letters were found), by the fact that all(??) examples of those gospels and letters have been found only(??) in Egypt, and not elsewhere.

If those documents were actually written in Egypt, then it means that the only place we know where the Jesus story was written was Egypt, and not known at that date from Judea or anywhere else. That is apparently "supported" by all the dates ever given for any of those biblical remnants, and supported by the location of every finding ever made (is it "all" of them??) for any of those NT remains.

So there is your "support". And those are said to be facts. Not said by me, but said to be facts by those who found the remnants and those who dated the remnants ... fact they were found in Egypt, and fact that they pre-date any NT writing found outside Egypt. Again - not my "facts", but apparently claimed as fact by those found the remains and those others who dated them.

Against that - what "support" do you have to say that gospels and letters were originally written in Judea? Or is that really just an assumption based on a belief that Jesus did live there and hence people there would have been the first to write gospels about him?

If one day we do find any earlier remnants of gospels in Judea, then fine. That would remove, or at least lessen any suspicion that the Jesus stories may have actually originated in Egypt and not in Judea. But apparently that is not the case at present. Apparently, the case as it now stands is that the only known writing of those gospels and letters appears to have come from Egypt.

It’s just another unsatisfactory element adding to a huge mass of unsatisfactory claims about evidence for a HJ.

 

[dejudge]

The idea that all of the Christian traditions came from Egypt needs a better explanation than "that's where we found the papyrus". Who invented these stories in Egypt? "Hoax Forgers!"... When? "In the 2nd to fourth centuries!"... Why? "To explain the fall of the Jewish Temple!"... Makes no sense at all.

The idea that the Jesus stories and cult of Christians originated with Jews needs a better explanation than "it says so in the Bible".

There is simply no existing evidence to show that an historical Jesus lived and lived in Galillee and that he had Jewish followers who worshiped him as a God and then wrote stories about him.


It has already been deuced that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were not the authors the Gospels and that writings under the name of Paul were really from multiple sources.

Why are Egyptian fake hoax forgers trying to explain why the Romans put down a provincial revolt by inventing a crucified Jewish Messiah?... "$$$Prophet!$$$"...

You must have just invented that Egyptian fake hoax forgers story because in the manuscripts which have survived it is claimed the JEWS KILLED Jesus or caused Jesus to be killed .

In the stories of Jesus, the Roman Governor, Pilate found NO fault with Jesus and even offered a prisonner exchange.


Plus it is Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Paul "the HERODIAN?" who are the FAKE authors of the Gospels or stories of Jesus.

See "Did Jesus Exist?" by Bart Ehrman--Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did write the Gospels.

Why did the author of "Against Heresies" introduce all FAKE authors of the Gospels if they were established known real Jewish writers?

All existing stories of Jesus are dated AFTER the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE and it is explained that the Fall of the Jewish Temple was because the JEWS KILLED Jesus.

Hippolytus "Treatise Against the Jews

7. But why, O prophet, tell us, and for what reason, was the temple made desolate? ........ it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor, for He is coeternal with the Father.

 

[Brainache]

The idea that the Jesus stories and cult of Christians originated with Jews needs a better explanation than "it says so in the Bible".

There is simply no existing evidence to show that an historical Jesus lived and lived in Galillee and that he had Jewish followers who worshiped him as a God and then wrote stories about him.

Who is claiming that Jesus was worshipped as a god during his lifetime?

It has already been deuced that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were not the authors the Gospels and that writings under the name of Paul were really from multiple sources.

So what?

You must have just invented that Egyptian fake hoax forgers story because in the manuscripts which have survived it is claimed the JEWS KILLED Jesus or caused Jesus to be killed .

In the stories of Jesus, the Roman Governor, Pilate found NO fault with Jesus and even offered a prisonner exchange.

But my point was about your argument that the stories were invented in Egypt to explain the fall of the Jewish temple. The Jewish temple was destroyed during the Roman suppression of the Jewish Revolt ca. 70 CE. So your argument makes no sense. Why would these Egyptians care? Why would they invent a Jesus who died 40 years before the revolt?

Plus it is Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Paul "the HERODIAN?" who are the FAKE authors of the Gospels or stories of Jesus.

See "Did Jesus Exist?" by Bart Ehrman--Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did write the Gospels.

Why did the author of "Against Heresies" introduce all FAKE authors of the Gospels if they were established known real Jewish writers?

All existing stories of Jesus are dated AFTER the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE and it is explained that the Fall of the Jewish Temple was because the JEWS KILLED Jesus.

Hippolytus "Treatise Against the Jews

This is incomprehensible, illogical, idiotic nonsense. Your arguments make no sense whatsoever.

Why bother?

 

[Craig B]

Who is claiming that Jesus was worshipped as a god during his lifetime?

dejudge is claiming it, and he has claimed it millions of times. There seems to be no point in telling him that it is not so, and that Jews do not worship Jesus as a god, and never have done, because I have tried in vain to convince dejudge of this simple fact.

 

[Brainache]

dejudge is claiming it, and he has claimed it millions of times. There seems to be no point in telling him that it is not so, and that Jews do not worship Jesus as a god, and never have done, because I have tried in vain to convince dejudge of this simple fact.

Yes, it's a bit sad really.

I wonder what happened to those guys who came in here last year to tell us all how "cogent" dejudge's arguments are, I haven't heard from them in a while. Perhaps they could explain the reasoning behind it all...

 

[maximara]

Sure. And we have agreed that before. There may once have been such writing in Judea. It's possible. But that’s a guess.

What is not a guess, but apparently a “fact”, is that only known place where the writing of the Jesus story has been found, is in Egypt.

That raises the distinct possibility that it was always in Egypt, and not written elsewhere. And that would be very suspicious if the Jesus story was supposed to have taken place in Judea, but only ever written about centuries later in Egypt.
Why was there so much (all?) of the Jesus story written in Egypt?

Why Egypt? What has Egypt to do with the religions of earlier Judea?

Is there some history of people in Egypt at that time writing about religious beliefs as if they (the writers) and the events had actually taken place in some other part of the world at some earlier time?

If the writing itself was produced in Egypt around (say) 4th to 6th century (e.g. for most of the extant gospel remains), then why were people writing this in Egypt? Who was it being written for? Who was paying Egyptian writers to produce accounts of religious beliefs from another far distant land?

It just raises suspicious questions about what was actually going on with the Jesus story such that the only known traces of it were apparently being produced for people in Egypt.

It's almost as if you've never heard of Alexandria and its library...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

Except it is not clear after Julius Caesar accidentally burning in 48 BCE in just what shape the Great Library was in.

In fact, the very article you link to above says "It flourished under the patronage of the Ptolemaic dynasty and functioned as a major center of scholarship from its construction in the 3rd century BC until the Roman conquest of Egypt in 30 BC."

This implies that the Great Library stopped being a major center of scholarship in 30 BCE some 60 years before Jesus ministry supposedly was.

And later on the article states "Although the various component parts of the physical library were destroyed, in fact the centres of academic excellence had already moved to various capital cities."

While these points are unreferenced and therefore must be viewed with great skepticism with regards to accuracy they do suggest that by the time of Jesus the Great Library had long ceased to be the hub it had once been.

In fact, in our modern world two libraries sit at the level the Great Library at its height once did: The British Library at 170 million works, and the Library of Congress at 158 million works.

The next library on the list (New York Public Library) is roughly a third of those at 53.1 million.