Leelah Alcorn, transgender teen, commited suicide

[Walter Ego]

Perhaps you can help me understand what has been appalling to you?

You didn't quote my entire post.

It's difficult for me to be objective about this story because one of my best friends, now deceased, was transgender.

She had a difficult time of it (to put it mildly) during her transition but picked herself up and was an editor at a PC magazine when she died. I still miss her.

My friend's story was very different from Leelah Alcorn's. She transitioned when she was an adult and was never to my knowledge suicidal. I might have killed myself if I had gone through some of the **** she went through.

I find some of the attitudes expressed here appalling but as I said I can't be completely objective on this issue.

Leelah Alcorn was not an abstraction. Neither was my friend. They were human beings. That's all I have to say right now on this subject. Let me note, however, that tranny trashing seems to be all the rage recently on some of the "skeptic" blogs and discussion boards.

 

[marplots]

I think you're confusing two separate statements.

The personal reality is that which any person is entitled to feel - for instance, that trans people are not normal. It's fine for them to feel like that - they just need to keep it to themselves.

Chosen gender is chosen gender, and that is now the legal situation in many countries.

This would be all well and good - if there weren't real world consequences. For example, if a company needed to hire a woman to meet an employment quota, would one with a penis do? I believe this comes up in the realm of sporting events too.

Calling it "chosen gender" is interesting, because it implies a choice - as opposed to some uncontrollable psychological urge.

I see no particular reason why the idea couldn't be extended to other social categories as well.
"I look black, but I'm really white."
"Although I am chronologically 32-years-old, I'm really just 8."

What is wrong with the simple statement, "He's a boy who thinks he's a girl?"

 

[Butter!]

Because I'm sure you have evolved yourself completely beyond what some one looks like. I'm sure a 5ft4 300ilb man with 2 teeth in his head would be not judged by beauty at all.

You are very cruel in your comments. What is your problem? I was just putting a light spin on what we'd been discussing. I wasn't even referring to the beauty part, I was agreeing about the gender equality thing Mudcat had mentioned. Plus I added a freaking smiley.

And for the record, what is this problem with short men I keep hearing about? I've never been put off by that. Maybe it's because I'm "ugly," but I've dated plenty of short AND overweight men. And teeth? My own front teeth were knocked out in a vehicle accident 4 years ago. I couldn't get them fixed until I received a settlement, which took months. I know how nasty people in general can be about missing teeth, whatever the cause of their missing, people don't care. The day I'd judge someone for something like that that would be the day I went to church.

For the record, I'd never judge anyone for having aesthetic preferences in a mate either. The very idea is absurd. All I said was there's more at stake for trans people than there is for people who are simply unattractive because of the danger factor. Then Mudcat said something nice, and I lauded him with a smiley. How do you get what you got out of that? I just can't imagine.

ETA - It's funny. No matter how civil one tries to be in a discussion about a volatile topic like gender issues, someone will find a reason to jump all over one anyway. Why? What do you get out of it?

 

[Caper]

This is what I don't get.

I have seen some men that transitioned into women and it's pretty darn hard if not impossible to tell they were once considered men.

And then I've seen men that transitioned into women and they look ridiculous. They don't even look remotely female, but rather like they are wearing a tacky Halloween costume. But yet..... they are just as happy. They say as much. In interviews they talk about how hard it was and how happy they are now. I wonder if it was so important to dress as a woman.... why are they still not upset that they look nothing like most females?

It's obvious their treatment worked. Can't quite understand why.

 

[Walter Ego]

I don't want to get embroiled in this thread, since it's bound to get ugly, but I just have to say I'm really surprised by how nasty some of these comments are. This was a seventeen-year-old kid. I was a bit impulsive at seventeen, I was definitely more emotional than I am now, and I was by no means a pinnacle of sense and sensibility. (Neither were any of my peers that I knew.) My lows seemed lower. This is what being seventeen does to a person.

So this particular individual was dealing with a boatload of torment, felt no support, and being seventeen kicked into high gear. Suicide is selfish, but so what? She wasn't thinking about that. She was acting on impulse. I would bet money she didn't stop to really think about the consequences to that truck driver. Perhaps she should have, but of course she didn't. She was too upset, miserable, stressed. It's not ideal, but it happens.

Of all the things to get up on a high horse about, criticizing a miserable seventeen-year-old for her chosen suicide method seems like an odd choice. I've worked with suicidal people, and people who have had near-miss attempts, in the past. Most of them aren't thinking clearly. It's too hard for them to see past the pain that brought them to the brink. Has no one considered this?

Overall, I think better therapy, secular therapy with a therapist who was actually educated in gender issues and understood them, probably would have been the best preventative method here. It would have had the best chance of a different outcome for her. That's my contention. But now we'll never know.

 

[Caper]

You are very cruel in your comments. What is your problem? I was just putting a light spin on what we'd been discussing. I wasn't even referring to the beauty part, I was agreeing about the gender equality thing Mudcat had mentioned. Plus I added a freaking smiley.

And for the record, what is this problem with short men I keep hearing about? I've never been put off by that. Maybe it's because I'm "ugly," but I've dated plenty of short AND overweight men. And teeth? My own front teeth were knocked out in a vehicle accident 4 years ago. I couldn't get them fixed until I received a settlement, which took months. I know how nasty people in general can be about missing teeth, whatever the cause of their missing, people don't care. The day I'd judge someone for something like that that would be the day I went to church.

For the record, I'd never judge anyone for having aesthetic preferences in a mate either. The very idea is absurd. All I said was there's more at stake for trans people than there is for people who are simply unattractive because of the danger factor. Then Mudcat said something nice, and I lauded him with a smiley. How do you get what you got out of that? I just can't imagine.

ETA - It's funny. No matter how civil one tries to be in a discussion about a volatile topic like gender issues, someone will find a reason to jump all over one anyway. Why? What do you get out of it?

Sorry. I was flippant...but did not intend to be cruel.

 

[Butter!]

Okay, I'm sorry too. Didn't mean to bite your head off. Tempers are running high in this thread.


ETA -

 

[shuize]

Of all the things to get up on a high horse about, criticizing a miserable seventeen-year-old for her chosen suicide method seems like an odd choice. I've worked with suicidal people, and people who have had near-miss attempts, in the past. Most of them aren't thinking clearly. It's too hard for them to see past the pain that brought them to the brink. Has no one considered this?

Have to disagree strongly here.

Anyone who attempts to kill self by stepping out into traffic and endangering countless others just trying to get on with their lives deserves all the criticism they get.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I don't know of any cases where whims are involved, but if someone wishes to change on a whim, then that's fine. I don't think they'd be doing themselves or the wider TG community any favours, but it is that simple. If you identify as gender ............ then you are that.
The change is not generally something taken lightly.

Okay... but can you name any other examples of situations where someone's beliefs about what they are trump what others can observe scientifically?

If a person who identifies as female but has male genitalia and hasn't had any sort of operations, etc. dies and is on the medical examiner's table, the ME is going to write up their report identifying them as a male. That'll also be what the person's medical records indicate.

You're telling me that when it comes to how society should perceive that person when they are still alive, what they believe themselves to be and what they wish to be thought of as and what they identify as all trump that basic biological assessment.

Can you give me any other examples when beliefs and perceptions supersede observable reality within the objectivist worldview?

Like it or not, we live in a society where the vast, vast majority of people mean someone born with a penis and a Y chromosome when they say "man" and someone born without a penis or a Y chromosome when they say "woman" - and when they see someone who appears to be one or the other walking down the street, they'll think "that's a (wo)man" and they'll mean what I've just said. They'll mean someone who can pretty reliably be assumed to be able to impregnate someone or get pregnant by someone, or have been able to when younger.

A fairly radical change in how language and perception and biology should be dealt with in our society is being proposed. The number of people on this planet who agree with how you think it should operate is incredibly small and limited to the first world, where it is also a small minority view.

Sure. What could be unfair about it?

I was asking if my summary of what you were saying was a fair one.

Very easily. If your skepticism is ruled by "hard biological" evidence, then you're in trouble as soon as we get to intersex people for starters.

Biology is messy and inexact, but for the vast majority of people it is clear. The vast majority tends to be who we seek to cater to and reflect when coming up with generalized rules of language and conduct.

Then maybe you could turn the sympathy into empathy and stop using language likely to distress transgender people.

Sorry, but for you to ask me to worry about "language likely to distress" people on a skeptics forum is ridiculous.

Isn't the whole point of a place where skeptics meet and discuss things the idea of having a zone free from those sorts of considerations? Obviously it makes all the sense in the world for them to have rules here which state that you shouldn't attack other posters personally, or troll, or deliberately try to distress another poster... but once we start down the road you're suggesting here, does that mean in threads about psychics I need to avoid using language likely to distress people who have lost a loved one and really want to believe the psychic is in contact with them? Of course not.

I'm already making an effort not to be needlessly hurtful or offensive, and I think by any objective standard I am succeeding there. At this point it almost has to just be my opinions or questions themselves, no matter how they're worded, which are the source of offense. If the careful wording I've used isn't sufficient to avoid causing distress, then nothing is.

Leelah Alcorn was not an abstraction. Neither was my friend. They were human beings. That's all I have to say right now on this subject. Let me note, however, that tranny trashing seems to be all the rage recently on some of the "skeptic" blogs and discussion boards.

True, they were real people and they deserve our sympathy. But on a skeptics board you cannot possibly be expecting me to place peoples' feelings or my own feelings or sympathy or emotion or respect or deference or good manners or anything else above a cold, hard, logical look at the topic under discussion. Right?

ETA: Btw, I think marplot's question in post #283 deserves to be properly addressed, I wonder that too.

 

[The Atheist]

This would be all well and good - if there weren't real world consequences. For example, if a company needed to hire a woman to meet an employment quota, would one with a penis do? I believe this comes up in the realm of sporting events too.

I don't see why it would matter - if such a thing as a female quota existed, why could trans women not be included in women?

If I were the CEO, that's how it would be.

I find it interesting you think there's a problem.

Sport is a little different, because of the obvious strength difference between males and females, but sports organisations have met this question already and it seems to be working, so I don't think there's any problem there either.

Calling it "chosen gender" is interesting, because it implies a choice - as opposed to some uncontrollable psychological urge.

Uncontrollable urge? Wow.

What's wrong with being able to choose? If someone wants to live as a woman for whatever reason, bully for them is my call.

Why on earth would anyone else care?

I see no particular reason why the idea couldn't be extended to other social categories as well.
"I look black, but I'm really white."
"Although I am chronologically 32-years-old, I'm really just 8."

If you think those are analogous, I probably can't help you.

What is wrong with the simple statement, "He's a boy who thinks he's a girl?"

What's wrong with accepting someone's self identification?

Why would you need to emphasise the person was born gender ......?

Sorry, I just don't get why anyone would think it matters in any way.

Thankfully, the young generation today is far more accepting than I would have thought possible.

My daughter (aged 15) has two TG friends, one MtF and the other FtM. They both get almost total support from other kids at school. which is heartening.

Luckily, your kind of thinking is being replaced quickly.

You seem to think these things are done lightly. Let me assure you that is not the case. The considerations extend right from how the person's parents will react, schools, workplaces, friends, other family, and the general public.

Some TG people are very easy to spot, especially if the transition is well after puberty. That person whom you may think looks absurd walking down the street like a drag queen parody isn't doing it on a whim.

 

[Butter!]

Have to disagree strongly here.

Anyone who attempts to kill self by stepping out into traffic and endangering countless others just trying to get on with their lives deserves all the criticism they get.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion of course. But having counseled suicidal people, I know their minds don't work strictly logically. The minds of depressed teenagers, even less so. And I take that knowledge into consideration, is all.

But I suppose no amount of criticism, right or wrong, is going to hurt her now regardless.

 

[Walter Ego]

Have to disagree strongly here.

Anyone who attempts to kill self by stepping out into traffic and endangering countless others just trying to get on with their lives deserves all the criticism they get.

<sigh>


I'm sure after all this scolding she won't do it again.

 

[The Atheist]

Okay... but can you name any other examples of situations where someone's beliefs about what they are trump what others can observe scientifically?

Science doesn't designate gender, society does.

The law says that people can choose a gender, so science can go and whistle.

If a person who identifies as female but has male genitalia and hasn't had any sort of operations, etc. dies and is on the medical examiner's table, the ME is going to write up their report identifying them as a male. That'll also be what the person's medical records indicate.

Apart from the fact that it would be a very unusual trans who didn't take any hormones, it will only apply in John/Jane Doe cases.

Like it or not, we live in a society where the vast, vast majority of people ....

... are religious, therefore we should all go to church tomorrow.

Nice argument - see you at Mass!

 

[Stout]

You're telling me that when it comes to how society should perceive that person when they are still alive, what they believe themselves to be and what they wish to be thought of as and what they identify as all trump that basic biological assessment.

That pretty much nails it. Gender is the very first assessment we make of a person upon meeting them. That assessment is subconscious and so fast that we don't even realize that we're doing it until we meet someone who gives us cause to interrupt that process. To ask people to disregard that process may work on an intellectual level however once we get out into the "real" world, trying to disregard those male/female subconscious assessments is, IMO, a very, very challenging task.

I agree with your previous assessment that there's no real "rules" in play here and trying to study this as a subject makes understanding the mathematics of sub-atomic physics seem easy by comparison.

 

[Stout]

The law says that people can choose a gender, so science can go and whistle.

Race is also a social construct. Why can't you "help" someone who wants to choose theirs ?

 

[The Atheist]

Fine by me - has nothing to do with the situation here, but I have no issue with it.

I always decline questions on race and think they should be thrown out, so the point is entirely moot for me.

 

[shuize]

<sigh>


I'm sure after all this scolding she won't do it again.

Better that she not have done it at all.

But the, "Oh, poor, poor, depressed person, nevermind that she might have killed other people" apology is pretty lame.

Other peoples' lives matter, too. If someone is so depressed that self harm is a possibility, I wish they would get help. Failing that, however, I would ask that they please not kill themselves in such a way as to harm others on their way out. I don't think that's asking too much.

 

[Butter!]

Better that she not have done it at all.
But the, "Oh, poor, poor, depressed person, nevermind that she might have killed other people" apology is pretty lame.

Characterizing my comments in that way is pretty inaccurate. But if that's how any deviation from your own position reads to you, I suppose there's nothing that can be done about it.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Better that she not have done it at all.

But the, "Oh, poor, poor, depressed person, nevermind that she might have killed other people" apology is pretty lame.

Other peoples' lives matter, too. If someone is so depressed that self harm is a possibility, I wish they would get help. Failing that, however, I would ask that they please not kill themselves in such a way as to harm others on their way out. I don't think that's asking too much.

Again, all this demonstrates is that your understanding of depression and suicidal ideation is abysmal.

 

[Axiom_Blade]

This is what I don't get.

I have seen some men that transitioned into women and it's pretty darn hard if not impossible to tell they were once considered men.

And then I've seen men that transitioned into women and they look ridiculous. They don't even look remotely female, but rather like they are wearing a tacky Halloween costume. But yet..... they are just as happy. They say as much. In interviews they talk about how hard it was and how happy they are now. I wonder if it was so important to dress as a woman.... why are they still not upset that they look nothing like most females?

It's obvious their treatment worked. Can't quite understand why.

The later in life you start to transition, the less successful it is. This is a big part of the reason Leelah killed herself. Her parents wouldn't allow her to get the treatments, and she didn't want to have to wait until she was 18, because she was afraid she would end up looking like "a man in drag".

When I was 16 I realized that my parents would never come around, and that I would have to wait until I was 18 to start any sort of transitioning treatment, which absolutely broke my heart. The longer you wait, the harder it is to transition. I felt hopeless, that I was just going to look like a man in drag for the rest of my life. On my 16th birthday, when I didn’t receive consent from my parents to start transitioning, I cried myself to sleep.