Leelah Alcorn, transgender teen, commited suicide

[shuttlt]

If you don't find men attractive, and you do find a trans woman attractive, then wouldn't that mean that she isn't a man?

Do you mean to imply that "man" here is a non-context dependent, necessarily objective term? Maybe I'm over reading this?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Teen suicide. Huh, when does that ever happen? Are we to have 7 pages of special pleading for a teen suicide? If so, why?

Never mind, I just looked at the Amanda Knox Thread.
Back to your usual ....

 

[Butter!]

Special pleading for what? It's largely a discussion of the social issue(s) that lie(s) at the core of this particular suicide. Did you read the thread?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Special pleading for what? It's largely a discussion of the social issue(s) that lie(s) at the core of this particular suicide. Did you read the thread?

Yes, and I attempted a pithy summary of the rash of posts on this suicide. Perhaps brevity isn't always welcome.

 

[luchog]

For the record, I chose my words poorly when I said earlier that I concede suicide is selfish (though still not worthy of condemnation). I meant that it's objectively "selfish" in that it hurts the people left behind, but I know that people driven to the point of suicide do not and usually cannot consider that. Not at the end. So it's irrelevant. (Also, many people genuinely believe at that point that their loved ones would be better off without them. )

I still think "selfish" is the wrong word, with connotations that simply do not apply. It's a value judgment; and refers to caring only for one's own benefits and welfare. That's not what's going on here. "Self-centered" is a better term. But even so, what of it? Pain is always self-centered, it's impossible not to be focused on one's self when dealing with that kind of pain. As you noted, it's irrelevant to the circumstances.

Right now there are probably a dozen tribute videos for this kid floating on the net somewhere. Not just this teen but other teens as well that chose the same path.

Because, G-D forbid that anyone should have the opportunity to understand someone else's pain and trauma. Best keep it quiet so it doesn't disturb our perfect little fantasy world.

I have no doubt this teen probably watched dozens of these type videos while contemplating her/his own path.

I hear there's a guy who will pay you a million US dollars if you can demonstrate your psychic abilities under controlled conditions.

I firmly believe part of the escape fantasy of teen suicide is finally being loved or understood in death the way they were not in life. I believe the more we memorialize their deaths, the more other teens will see it as an attractive option.

So? That's not really relevant.

You're sitting there whinging about a symptom, and ignoring or outright dismissing the disease causing it. The fact is, there is a reason that people commit suicide; and it's always the result of some sort of pain or mental disorder. This kid was seriously traumatized by her parents. She was told she was evil or sick or otherwise "wrong", that he didn't belong, that she was less valuable to her parent than their religious beliefs and social standing. At a time in her life when a person is least capable of handling such trauma.

I think it's important to memorialize their deaths; because it's important for people to know how broken our culture is. How destructive and outright vicious it can be to those who don't "fit in", who break some religiously-dictated rules about who they are allowed and required to be. If that motivates others to commit suicide; then the response should not be "well, we should stop allowing videos". That's profoundly stupid, and just another example of the problem that has caused so many suicides. The appropriate response should be to try and understand why these kids think that their only option for gaining understanding and respect is through suicide; and do something to fix that.

Someone in this thread said that they couldn't condemn this person's parents, because at least they didn't kick her out. I disagree. They did far worse. If they had kicked her out, there's a chance she would have managed to find help. There are resources out there, and she already had a small support network. But her parents did worse than that, they isolated her, effectively imprisoned her, and destroyed what little support she already had.

In other words, feeling like a woman or man is invisible to cis people, because everything is consistent, from physical appearance to socialzation. When those things aren't consistent, though, "feeling like me" stands in contrast to physical appearance and socialization, and it then becomes noticeable.

Very well said.

 

[xjx388]

If you don't find men attractive, and you do find a trans woman attractive, then wouldn't that mean that she isn't a man?

"Attractive" was probably the wrong way to phrase it -I meant it as a kind of shorthand. I don't want to have sex with men. I don't want to date men. I don't want to commit to a sexual/emotional relationship with a man. If I found out that a woman I was dating used to be a man, I would cease dating that woman. It's just not for me. Of course, I probably wouldn't be in that situation to begin with because 1)I've been married to the same woman since I was 19 and 2)I don't like fake boobs. But that's me.

I simply object to the idea that I am stupid or irrational for having preferences that someone else doesn't agree with.

 

[epepke]

Funny how this is somehow a bloke issue.

As I said earlier I have worked with transgender people and believe me there were a couple of women who didnt exactly welcome them with open arms

That's quite true. There are a lot of women's (or worse, womyn's) groups who talk a lot about women-born-women (or womyn). Such as the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival.

However, if there's anything that can be said about gender with little chance of getting it wrong, it's that "male" can be defined as "the gender everything bad is blamed on." It's reasonable to assume that most of the discourse is therefore going to be about men's reactions. It's a kind of meta-information about the construction of gender, too.

We're still in the fairly early stages of culture with respect to transgenderism. At some point women's reactions will be unignorable. Then it will get very interesting, and something will have to give.

 

[Butter!]

I still think "selfish" is the wrong word, with connotations that simply do not apply. It's a value judgment; and refers to caring only for one's own benefits and welfare. That's not what's going on here. "Self-centered" is a better term. But even so, what of it? Pain is always self-centered, it's impossible not to be focused on one's self when dealing with that kind of pain. As you noted, it's irrelevant to the circumstances.

.

Agree 100%.

ETA - I agree 100% with the rest of your post too, but since a lot of it was responding to other quotes, quoting it seemed awkward. But it's all spot-on.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

In addition to what has been said, I think framing suicide in terms of intentions, values and ethics is largely pointless. In the context discussed, it is something one does in a state of extreme distress. It is not necessarily even something one chooses to do because life itself is too painful, but simply because you can't get the idea of suicide out of your head; suddenly you just find yourself making that noose you've been pondering so often. Depression and suicidal ideation are related, of course, but they're two separate things and can very much occur independently of one another.

 

[Mudcat]

90% is extremely generous IMO. But even still the pool of potential mates is still large, if you live in any kind of populated area. There are also just as many opposite trans people out there and they will date you.


Also, it's not like most people are lucky enough to have 100% of people willing to date you. If you are not very attractive you are probably sitting around 90% as well.

Agreed, especially on the second paragraph. People need to get over themselves sometimes, regardless of sexual orientation or sexual identity.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Of course that's been taken into consideration. What do you figure, we throw the truck driver, the unwilling participant, under the bus and ignore the possible effects it has on him. Poor sod could be sitting there right now with a bottle in one hand and a loaded .45 in the other.

Quite possibly. Hopefully he receives the love and support he needs. It's not too late for him... unlike Leelah.

I strongly disagree that suicide is selfish. Certainly some can be incredibly self-centered; but selfish?

Definitely. I suffer from depression and while its effect on me is primarily a pretty extreme lack of energy and motivation, I do occasionally have periods where I feel like suicide is the only long-term solution. In those times, I often consider how I have failed, or am currently failing, people who rely on me and how much of a burden I am on others. If I were to kill myself then, I wouldn't see it as just a "selfish" act of pain relief, but also a long-term relief for those people I burden.

Yes, and I attempted a pithy summary of the rash of posts on this suicide. Perhaps brevity isn't always welcome.

Usually when it's also heavily laced with venom and ignorance.

 

[Butter!]

Agreed, especially on the second paragraph. People need to get over themselves sometimes, regardless of sexual orientation or sexual identity.

This is true, certainly. I guess the only stark difference would be concern over the moment of reveal (in the case of someone who "passes"), when to do it and how the prospective partner will react, etc.

I'm a bit of a toad in the eyes of many men due to being scrawny-framed and chestless, for example. But men who are put off by these qualities can see them straightaway, and walk right on by me. No harm really done.

Where it can probably get a good deal more complicated is if a transwoman who "passes" (that term might not be the best, but I don't know another one, sorry) is approached by an interested man, they start talking, have a lot in common, things are going well - but then there's that big reveal hanging on the horizon. And the worst part is, as Dessi mentioned, mere rejection isn't even the worst case scenario. Violence has been known to result from such reveals, depending on the guy. And if the transwoman wants to get the reveal out of the way early, she might have even less of a sense how the guy will react. Talk about a conundrum!

So in that sense, I suppose the limiting of "options" for a transperson could have a lot more stress attached to it than it does for a regular cis-toad like myself. But I do see what you're saying, and there's validity to it.

 

[Butter!]

Yes, and I attempted a pithy summary of the rash of posts on this suicide. Perhaps brevity isn't always welcome.

Well, I didn't mean to jump down your throat. I just think a lot of the chatter is less about this suicide precisely, and more about the reasons behind it, their social implications on a grander scale, and the "morality" (for lack of a better word) of suicide itself. Obviously a lot more complex than just "Oh, this girl killed herself, how terrible, her parents are dicks" over and over for 7 pages.

These are issues of our times, I guess, and incidents like this one stimulate talk about them.

 

[Mudcat]

I'm a bit of a toad in the eyes of many men due to being scrawny-framed and chestless, for example.

I don't really get that. Not the whole attraction towards big breasts (okay, I really don't get that either) but the treating women as if they're a collection of attractive body parts. Aren't women people too? I guess I'm just a man who doesn't really get other men at times, despite having had men come onto me.

This might be too obvious but I think the problems we have in society against the LGTB is symptomatic of the problems we have with gender equality.

 

[epepke]

In addition to what has been said, I think framing suicide in terms of intentions, values and ethics is largely pointless. In the context discussed, it is something one does in a state of extreme distress. It is not necessarily even something one chooses to do because life itself is too painful, but simply because you can't get the idea of suicide out of your head; suddenly you just find yourself making that noose you've been pondering so often. Depression and suicidal ideation are related, of course, but they're two separate things and can very much occur independently of one another.

^^^ This. Nicely done.

 

[Butter!]

I don't really get that. Not the whole attraction towards big breasts (okay, I really don't get that either) but the treating women as if they're a collection of attractive body parts. Aren't women people too? I guess I'm just a man who doesn't really get other men at times, despite having had men come onto me.

This might be too obvious but I think the problems we have in society against the LGTB is symptomatic of the problems we have with gender equality.

Truer word was never spoken, boy.

Of course, there are plenty of decent people out there fighting the good equality fights (figuratively speaking) and looking past arbitrary beauty standards. But the reality is, a good chunk of people subscribe to them, unwaveringly. And I've just learned to expect it, though I don't for a moment condone it.

I think your last paragraph has some good food for thought...

 

[epepke]

This might be too obvious but I think the problems we have in society against the LGTB is symptomatic of the problems we have with gender equality.

That may be so, and a lot of people have assumed that.

On the other hand, while great strides are being made with respect to LGT acceptance (though the B is still a big problem), I think that gender equality has been getting worse for some time.

 

[The Atheist]

We're still in the fairly early stages of culture with respect to transgenderism. At some point women's reactions will be unignorable. Then it will get very interesting, and something will have to give.

I'll quote something I've quoted in another thread that a trans chick said to me a couple of months ago about "coming out" to other women.

She advocated not doing it and leaving it a mystery, because at worst, she will be taken for a slightly weirdo woman, which was far preferable to being known as a trans. Or more likely a pejorative term.

Women perpetuating gender stereotyping, who'da thought?

These are issues of our times, I guess, and incidents like this one stimulate talk about them.

The number of responses that contain some very suspect statement is disturbing. I'd have liked to have expected a greater degree of at least empathetic posting.

First up, a trans woman IS NOT A MAN! (I know you know that, btw, nothing wrong with your attitude.)

It isn't necessary for people to support trans people at all, but I think it's incumbent on any thinking person to at least temper one's personal feelings while discussing the subject and not use language that looks bigoted, whether intended or not.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

<snip>The number of responses that contain some very suspect statement is disturbing. I'd have liked to have expected a greater degree of at least empathetic posting.

First up, a trans woman IS NOT A MAN! <snip>

I'm not sure why that's a "questionable" statement exactly.

I can certainly understand why it's a statement a lot of people wouldn't want to hear, but that's another issue.

You can find plenty of feminists and people within the LGBTQ world who insist that someone cannot become a woman, but must be born one. There are feminists who bristle at the idea of a man being able to just choose to be something they view as a sort of sacred victim status. Perhaps these are some of the more intensely anti-male feminists who hate the idea of a male being able to lay claim to femininity in that way, I don't know.

But the point is, this is not something there is unanimity about within the progressive/LGBTQ/feminist world, or the academic world, or really among anyone.

It's a contentious topic so I'm not sure how you can act like there is some clearly right and clearly wrong opinion on it.

In fact, the statement you are criticizing is, in actuality, the most firmly rooted in reality of any we have available to us on this matter.

Although many may say it for bigoted, hurtful reasons... this doesn't change the fact that the weight of reality is most firmly behind the idea that a trans "woman" is a man.

Why? Because although biology and sex are not completely binary and are messy in the way anything biological are, clearly as a species we have decided that we are able to declare someone male or female in most cases. Now, if someone is born with a penis and without a vagina, the consensus seems to be that is a male. If that same person has their chromosomes examined and they are XY, people are even more firm on that determination.

So what, other than ideology and desire, accounts for anyone thinking they can say "oh that person has ceased to be male and is now female" at a later point in their life due to things they've said, or things they've done to themselves in terms of physical appearance or even anatomy?

Nobody I'm aware of says that a soldier in a war whose male genitalia are blown off by an IED is now female. So it cannot simply be that removing those magically makes one a female.

Nobody says Rudy Giuliani was female during the portion of time he was dressed in drag, and then became male again when he took that off. So it cannot be simply an issue of how a person is dressed/made-up, and that's obvious.

Nobody agrees that that guy who had the crazy full body modifications to look like a cat is one.

Nobody agrees that the guy on the street corner who says he's Jesus is Jesus, so it cannot be a simple matter of someone being whatever they declare they are.

So while I might agree that using "her" and "she" when referring to someone who is transsexual might be the right thing to do in terms of being polite and respectful to them, I don't see how you can act like it's some definitive truth that they are not a man.

I don't see how anyone could argue that the most evidence-based, skeptical, scientific, and logically-rooted stance is that they are a man for life no matter what they do.

And no, that's not a hateful stance to take. It's a realistic one. My daughter may desire more than anything in the world to be a princess, might dress like one, might insist she is one, and I might play along and call her one, but none of that will make it so.

That isn't meant to be an insulting or demeaning or downplaying comparison. It's just the comparison that popped to mind as a way to demonstrate this basic, non-hateful, non-controversial assertion: desire is not a determining factor of something like this, and certainly not among skeptics.

 

[Butter!]

The number of responses that contain some very suspect statement is disturbing. I'd have liked to have expected a greater degree of at least empathetic posting.

I feel exactly the same way, TA.

One doesn't have to fully understand something to respect it, after all.