Leelah Alcorn, transgender teen, commited suicide

[bruto]

I don't want to get embroiled in this thread, since it's bound to get ugly, but I just have to say I'm really surprised by how nasty some of these comments are. This was a seventeen-year-old kid. I was a bit impulsive at seventeen, I was definitely more emotional than I am now, and I was by no means a pinnacle of sense and sensibility. (Neither were any of my peers that I knew.) My lows seemed lower. This is what being seventeen does to a person.

So this particular individual was dealing with a boatload of torment, felt no support, and being seventeen kicked into high gear. Suicide is selfish, but so what? She wasn't thinking about that. She was acting on impulse. I would bet money she didn't stop to really think about the consequences to that truck driver. Perhaps she should have, but of course she didn't. She was too upset, miserable, stressed. It's not ideal, but it happens.

Of all the things to get up on a high horse about, criticizing a miserable seventeen-year-old for her chosen suicide method seems like an odd choice. I've worked with suicidal people, and people who have had near-miss attempts, in the past. Most of them aren't thinking clearly. It's too hard for them to see past the pain that brought them to the brink. Has no one considered this?

Overall, I think better therapy, secular therapy with a therapist who was actually educated in gender issues and understood them, probably would have been the best preventative method here. It would have had the best chance of a different outcome for her. That's my contention. But now we'll never know.

I've also tended to avoid this thread and comment on it. A subject like this is like tying a goat to a tree in tiger country.

 

[luchog]

I don't see how it would be difficult to have sympathy for both.

I do, but that's because I grew up in an environment that demonized anyone who did not fit a very narrow view of binary sexuality and gender identity as fundamentally evil, or sick and needing to be "cured".

And that's clearly what it's about here. The fact that a transgendered teen was driven by depression and suicide isn't nearly as important as the fact that someone else was forced to witness the suicide of this disgusting little pervert.

 

[luchog]

Calling suicides (any of them) selfish is like calling summer hot. Where does it get us in discussing this case?

I strongly disagree that suicide is selfish. Certainly some can be incredibly self-centered; but selfish? No. Suicide is typically borne from desperation and despair. Add to that a time of life which is difficult and confusing even under the best of circumstances; and all the claims of "selfishness" say far more about the prejudices of the commentators than it does about the motivations of the suicide.

I find it far more selfish to insist that someone conform to another person's conception of who they are, and demand that they keep their pain and desperation hidden from everyone else.

 

[Butter!]

I strongly disagree that suicide is selfish. Certainly some can be incredibly self-centered; but selfish? No. Suicide is typically borne from desperation and despair. Add to that a time of life which is difficult and confusing even under the best of circumstances; and all the claims of "selfishness" say far more about the prejudices of the commentators than it does about the motivations of the suicide.

I find it far more selfish to insist that someone conform to another person's conception of who they are, and demand that they keep their pain and desperation hidden from everyone else.

I agree with this completely.

For the record, I chose my words poorly when I said earlier that I concede suicide is selfish (though still not worthy of condemnation). I meant that it's objectively "selfish" in that it hurts the people left behind, but I know that people driven to the point of suicide do not and usually cannot consider that. Not at the end. So it's irrelevant. (Also, many people genuinely believe at that point that their loved ones would be better off without them. )

 

[cullennz]

Some suicides are incredibly selfish.

Older people who do it through debt and leave their wife and kids to deal with it being an obvious example.

In my opinion this kid was mentally messed up and didnt think about their affects on other people.

Probably not selfish in this case, but mean

 

[Caper]

Right now there are probably a dozen tribute videos for this kid floating on the net somewhere. Not just this teen but other teens as well that chose the same path. I have no doubt this teen probably watched dozens of these type videos while contemplating her/his own path. I firmly believe part of the escape fantasy of teen suicide is finally being loved or understood in death the way they were not in life. I believe the more we memorialize their deaths, the more other teens will see it as an attractive option.

 

[marplots]

AH. I see. You do not, in fact, know any transgendered. Perhaps you should see it as a learning opportunity.

How would I know if they were transgendered or not? Wouldn't someone who was successful at it be invisible to me? Is there something similar to "gay-dar" in play?

What you are asking, in effect, is if I know anyone who isn't very good at impersonating the sex they are not. And you are correct, I don't know anyone like that. Which, of course, means I cannot have a well-formed opinion. I know the rules of this conversation.

I'd even dispute the notion of "feeling like one's own sex." What, after all, does it mean to "feel like a woman" or "feel like a man?" Don't we just feel like whomever we happen to be? I feel like me, not like my sex organs.

 

[Aepervius]

This is one of the few things I'll disagree with you on. I believe that it's definitely important to disclose such a thing to a partner. I find not doing so to be dishonest; just as I would want to know about my partner's sexual history and identity. I also think that I would have no business getting involved with someone who would have a problem with who I am; at best, it's going to be a shock and potential for unnecessary conflict and loss of trust.

It hapenned to me (1998 in chemnitz) . My (immediately ex) girlfriend turned to born male, and i dunno if chirurgy advanced nowadays but it could not be mistaken from real female organ. I was extremly pissed and I had to calm myself down to not hit her.

Sure I will continue to reference as her for social reason, if I ever meet her again, but do not be mistaken dessi : in a relationship some thigns are 50/50, a apart coming from both side, and such details once you become so intimate belong to the things you need morally to share. Hidding it is hidding something of potentially great importance to your partner. It is basically a lie.

What sort of relationship is built on a lie of that importance ? not a good one.

Now feel free to call me a bigot or whatever I do not care. My sexual interrest are women, not men.

 

[Aepervius]

Some suicides are incredibly selfish.

Older people who do it through debt and leave their wife and kids to deal with it being an obvious example.

In my opinion this kid was mentally messed up and didnt think about their affects on other people.

Probably not selfish in this case, but mean

Suicide is always a question of self. There is nothing more "personal" than death. While I agree on the basic level that some form of suicide should never be chosen, the one involving the potential death of a stranger or their traumatism (jumping off a building, jumping in traffic, suicide by gas among others) it demonstrate of poor emotional skill on concentrating on that point.

 

[shuttlt]

Then the "majority of men" should get better at detecting the difference. Or (big stretch) know enough about their sexfun playmates so that they do not choose...poorly.

I agree that a trans-person explicitly denying being post-surgery, when asked, is a different situation--a woman who was lied to, in that situation, has reason to be upset.

I wonder about women with post-cancer reconstructed vaginas. Do they fall under the geas of "not real women", too?

I think you are treating this as an ethics position. It's just a fact of the world right now that most cis people aren't going to be expecting this and will react badly, men in particular. To ignore other people's feelings and sexual identity because you don't agree with them seems like rather a mitant position to take and is completely dismissive of the other persons views/beliefs/agency.

 

[cullennz]

Funny how this is somehow a bloke issue.

As I said earlier I have worked with transgender people and believe me there were a couple of women who didnt exactly welcome them with open arms

 

[Information Analyst]

Can't imagine some selfish brat wouldn't think ahead about ruining someone else's life.

That's too harsh. The motive and the method are somewhat separate issues. Plenty of people commit suicide in a manner that directly involves and thus can traumatise others, but by the time someone actually attempts suicide, while some might have a nihilistic attitude, most will probably be more focused on the outcome than how they achieve it.

 

[shuttlt]

Funny how this is somehow a bloke issue.

As I said earlier I have worked with transgender people and believe me there were a couple of women who didnt exactly welcome them with open arms

I defer to your greater knowledge on this.

 

[Pup]

I'd even dispute the notion of "feeling like one's own sex." What, after all, does it mean to "feel like a woman" or "feel like a man?" Don't we just feel like whomever we happen to be? I feel like me, not like my sex organs.

I think you're getting it. I'll defer to those on this thread who are transexual, but every story I've read of someone's early life before transition is just like what you said, except they "feel like whomever they happen to be" regardless of what their sex organs are.

In other words, feeling like a woman or man is invisible to cis people, because everything is consistent, from physical appearance to socialzation. When those things aren't consistent, though, "feeling like me" stands in contrast to physical appearance and socialization, and it then becomes noticeable.

 

[cullennz]

Shuttit

Never claimed to have greater knowledge. Just pointing out my experience..

Maybe I just work in an unusual environment and every where is full of jerk blokes and perfect women

 

[Arcade22]

I freely admit to appealing to common understanding of how human beings are there.

Common understanding and common sense is prone to inaccuracy, projection and just about any fallacy in the book of informal logical fallacies. In particular when it comes to self-reported data regarding human sexuality people are prone to excuse their behavior and desires that don't square with their own identity. Hence why people say things like "it's not gay if you are the top, if it's with a tranny or a young feminine crossdresser" or "I'm still straight because he was cute/pretty/looked-like-a-girl/etc".

I would love to hear what you believe the percentage of heterosexual, cisgender males who would feel that way is. I'm giving you full green light to conjecture.

No i won't guesstimate together with you, sorry. Get some facts and stop spreading rumors.

 

[Aepervius]

Common understanding and common sense is prone to inaccuracy, projection and just about any fallacy in the book of informal logical fallacies. In particular when it comes to self-reported data regarding human sexuality people are prone to excuse their behavior and desires that don't square with their own identity. Hence why people say things like "it's not gay if you are the top, if it's with a tranny or a young feminine crossdresser" or "I'm still straight because he was cute/pretty/looked-like-a-girl/etc".



No i won't guesstimate together with you, sorry. Get some facts and stop spreading rumors.

Seeing how trans (men and women) are not quite so accepted in social life in western economy, this is evidence that sexual acceptance will at least fare as badly. Probably worst, because some of the bloke not caring about gender in social orientation like me, would be not accepting a sexual relationship with same trans woman.

There is evidence therefore that more than the majority of men in the western countries (europe/ north maerica) would be non accepting such relationship. Is the real percentage relevant ?

That may vary among other culture.

 

[Stout]

Funny how this is somehow a bloke issue.

As I said earlier I have worked with transgender people and believe me there were a couple of women who didnt exactly welcome them with open arms

We're most likely a majority of guys posting on this thread. As far as I can tell trans* have just as many issues with women as they do with men an example would be using the ladies room. Men tend to act more violently than women do but the level of hostility is the same with both genders.

 

[xjx388]

I have to say that I object to using words like "stupid," or "irrational," when it comes to things like preference in a sexual partner. Attraction is not a logic-based process.; I cannot logically explain why I don't find men attractive.

It's akin to calling homosexuals or transgendered people stupid and irrational.

 

[colander]

I have to say that I object to using words like "stupid," or "irrational," when it comes to things like preference in a sexual partner. Attraction is not a logic-based process.; I cannot logically explain why I don't find men attractive.

If you don't find men attractive, and you do find a trans woman attractive, then wouldn't that mean that she isn't a man?