Leelah Alcorn, transgender teen, commited suicide

[Stout]

Most people wouldn't even recognise that someone has has gender re-assignment surgery.

It all depends on whether they have passing privilege. Ever been to Bangkok? There's a lot of MtF that don't pass.

Then there' the issue of bottom surgery. AFIK a significant percentage don't have it

The transgender community isn't doing itself any favours by telling the cicgender community that "it shouldn't matter" what's between someone's legs and trying to shift the burden of what is exactly "down there" onto the cis community.

 

[Slowvehicle]

I didn't say "no one." You strawman in every post you make. That is the "no deviant" behavior I have observed. Are you prepared to say that gay reparative therapy never works? Ted Haggard and others disagree, they say they're cured. I guess we should just take their word for it, right?

Even if a small proportion of people grow out of homosexuality or bisexuality, it doesn't change the point that you are making an invalid comparison. The majority of children displaying transgender tendencies will grow out of them.

I will be interested to read your source for this claim.

I suppose that if anyone who is being prayed for ever experiences spontaneous remission of cancer, that "small proportion" is enough to prove the efficacy of intercessory prayer (and the concomitant existence of 'god')...

 

[cullennz]

Meanwhile 50 odd more teenagers kill themselves. No one notices. They managed to do it without permanently traumatising strangers

 

[Slowvehicle]

The overwhelming majority of men would have to make quite an adjustment to their sexual identity to knowingly partner/sleep with a trans-sexual. Willfully choosing to disregard this is certainly going to generate some intense situations.

Then the "majority of men" should get better at detecting the difference. Or (big stretch) know enough about their sexfun playmates so that they do not choose...poorly.

I agree that a trans-person explicitly denying being post-surgery, when asked, is a different situation--a woman who was lied to, in that situation, has reason to be upset.

I wonder about women with post-cancer reconstructed vaginas. Do they fall under the geas of "not real women", too?

 

[Slowvehicle]

............................................No.


What benefit do you think this post is?


Seriously.

How does this further the discussion?

It doesn't.

 

[Slowvehicle]

If you don't treat people as genitals with a body attached, in most cases it will be utterly insignificant whether someone is male or female and what they are hiding down their pants.

I know, right?

 

[cullennz]

In my office I have worked with 3( that I know of ) trasgender people .

2 were cool as. One was an pillock.

The problem with these discussions is that the transgender agenda people nwver take into account the rason for any bias might not be the transgender, just that they be an a hole

 

[cullennz]

Obvioulsy by that I mean an individual case

 

[angrysoba]

In my office I have worked with 3( that I know of ) trasgender people .

2 were cool as. One was an pillock.

The problem with these discussions is that the transgender agenda people nwver take into account the rason for any bias might not be the transgender, just that they be an a hole

Eh? Is this peculiar to transgender people? Or is it not also the case that people of a bigoted agenda can also be rectal orifices too?

 

[Butter!]

I don't want to get embroiled in this thread, since it's bound to get ugly, but I just have to say I'm really surprised by how nasty some of these comments are. This was a seventeen-year-old kid. I was a bit impulsive at seventeen, I was definitely more emotional than I am now, and I was by no means a pinnacle of sense and sensibility. (Neither were any of my peers that I knew.) My lows seemed lower. This is what being seventeen does to a person.

So this particular individual was dealing with a boatload of torment, felt no support, and being seventeen kicked into high gear. Suicide is selfish, but so what? She wasn't thinking about that. She was acting on impulse. I would bet money she didn't stop to really think about the consequences to that truck driver. Perhaps she should have, but of course she didn't. She was too upset, miserable, stressed. It's not ideal, but it happens.

Of all the things to get up on a high horse about, criticizing a miserable seventeen-year-old for her chosen suicide method seems like an odd choice. I've worked with suicidal people, and people who have had near-miss attempts, in the past. Most of them aren't thinking clearly. It's too hard for them to see past the pain that brought them to the brink. Has no one considered this?

Overall, I think better therapy, secular therapy with a therapist who was actually educated in gender issues and understood them, probably would have been the best preventative method here. It would have had the best chance of a different outcome for her. That's my contention. But now we'll never know.

 

[luchog]

It's a very difficult situation for all concerned: when your son announces he wants to live his life as a female. It's easy to condemn the parents in this case but it's a wrenching experience and one I'm glad I never had to wrestle with it.

No, just no.

I've discussed this issue with my wife in the past, as we have a large number of kids and may well have faced issues like this. I have absolutely no hesitation condemning the parents. In fact I'm prevented by the MA in giving full vent to my feelings.

I'll say it flat out, calling it a "wrenching experience" is complete and total bovine feces. It's only a "wrenching experience" if you are mired in atavistic religio-cultural prejudices, and care more about your beliefs and your social image than you do about your children.

Disclaimer: Speaking as someone who is transgendered, and have to deal with the religious crap from my parents.

 

[Stout]

Of all the things to get up on a high horse about, criticizing a miserable seventeen-year-old for her chosen suicide method seems like an odd choice. I've worked with suicidal people, and people who have had near-miss attempts, in the past. Most of them aren't thinking clearly. It's too hard for them to see past the pain that brought them to the brink. Has no one considered this?

Of course that's been taken into consideration. What do you figure, we throw the truck driver, the unwilling participant, under the bus and ignore the possible effects it has on him. Poor sod could be sitting there right now with a bottle in one hand and a loaded .45 in the other.

 

[luchog]

As for accepting a teenager's statements about his / her own gender- I honestly don't know. We've all been teenagers. We knew things with 100% certainty about ourselves that our mothers laughed at- and sometimes our mothers were right.

The membership agreement prevents me from stating just how wrong this is. Most transgendered individuals know, firmly and solidly, who they are by the time they reach puberty, or shortly after. If they don't, its only because they have been sheltered from any knowledge outside a narrow religious viewpoint, and are unable to articulate it to themselves.

I cannot say I knew I was transgendered when I was that age, but I knew I wasn't "normal". I grew up in a very religious household and environment (I was home schooled for my high school years); and I didn't even know that was an option, I didn't know there was such a thing. Even homosexuality was only a vague, poorly understood, and somehow threatening condition that was never uttered except in derision. But I knew that I wasn't male the way that the rest of my family and friends were. I always identified more with girls, and felt more "normal" around them.

By the time I was in my 20s, and had manage to gain a much wider experience of the world, I was finally introduced to the concept, and scales fell from my eyes, so to speak. I finally understood what it was that had nagged at me so strongly back when I was still young, confused, and undergoing puberty.

 

[Butter!]

Of course that's been taken into consideration. What do you figure, we throw the truck driver, the unwilling participant, under the bus and ignore the possible effects it has on him. Poor sod could be sitting there right now with a bottle in one hand and a loaded .45 in the other.

I don't believe I said anything about discounting his pain. I'm pretty sure I only remarked upon the venom some comments seemed to be casting on the kid. I attempted to remind them that logic wasn't likely ruling her actions at the end.

As far as the driver goes, my deepest sympathies are with him. He should seek counseling as well, right away, and I hope he has a great deal of support in his personal life too. Of course, this tragedy wasn't truly his fault, but that's likely of little comfort to him now. I'm sure he's suffering terribly. I know I would be.

 

[Ryokan]

Of course that's been taken into consideration. What do you figure, we throw the truck driver, the unwilling participant, under the bus and ignore the possible effects it has on him. Poor sod could be sitting there right now with a bottle in one hand and a loaded .45 in the other.

I don't see how it would be difficult to have sympathy for both.

 

[Stout]

I don't believe I said anything about discounting his pain. I'm pretty sure I only remarked upon the venom some comments seemed to be casting on the kid. I attempted to remind them that logic wasn't likely ruling her actions at the end.

As far as the driver goes, my deepest sympathies are with him. He should seek counseling as well, right away, and I hope he has a great deal of support in his personal life too. Of course, this tragedy wasn't truly his fault, but that's likely of little comfort to him now. I'm sure he's suffering terribly. I know I would be.

It's out of concern for the driver that the "selfish" comments are coming from. Nobody gives a rip about the parents and their backwards belief system. I'm the only one who tried to offer an explanation as to why the parents acted as they did. I wasn't making excuses for them, just trying to provide some perspective on what "is"

So far, the siblings haven't been mentioned however I don't doubt there's been some effect had there.

 

[luchog]

Fertility aside, the difference between completely attractive trans and cis women doesn't strike me as such an overwhelming important distinction. Even if you have an admittedly stupid preference for one over the other, it seems like such a petty preference that you'd suffer no real harm if a trans women chose not to disclose her status.

Knowing whether someone is trans might help you make a decision of some sorts, but I wouldn't necessarily call it an informed decision.

This is one of the few things I'll disagree with you on. I believe that it's definitely important to disclose such a thing to a partner. I find not doing so to be dishonest; just as I would want to know about my partner's sexual history and identity. I also think that I would have no business getting involved with someone who would have a problem with who I am; at best, it's going to be a shock and potential for unnecessary conflict and loss of trust.

 

[lionking]

Calling suicides (any of them) selfish is like calling summer hot. Where does it get us in discussing this case?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

This is one of the few things I'll disagree with you on. I believe that it's definitely important to disclose such a thing to a partner. I find not doing so to be dishonest; just as I would want to know about my partner's sexual history and identity. I also think that I would have no business getting involved with someone who would have a problem with who I am; at best, it's going to be a shock and potential for unnecessary conflict and loss of trust.

 

[newyorkguy]

This is one of the few things I'll disagree with you on. I believe that it's definitely important to disclose such a thing to a partner.

I agree. In fact I find it hard to believe that anyone would NOT tell their future lifemate about this. Talk about a life-changing event. This has to be the defining moment of someone's life; the decision to change your gender. How could you not share that with someone you truly love? Second, how do they explain their early history -when she was living as a boy? That's got to come up. Third, does she swear her family and old friends to secrecy? Even if they all swear to stay quiet you know darn well that somebody someday is going to tell him. If he finds out from anyone but her it's going to be a very distressing event.

In a practical sense, how about when she can't get pregnant and hubby suggests a visit to a gynecologist? That she never menstruates.

I would say it absolutely has to be disclosed and discussed. He's going to find out sooner or later. How do you do that to someone you love?