Even other cops get racially profiled by the NYPD

Police who say there IS profiling are lying and police who deny it happens are being honest. As Sgt. Joe Friday used to say, "Is that pretty much it?" :cool:

However, since I think police leaders pretty much concede it happens I'm going to accept that it does.

But based on my experience on message boards, people will defend a position to the bitter end. That's not going to change. If someone posted a link to a group of white police officers who admitted, "We are guilty of racial profiling, based on our own bias," some posters would respond:

As far as I can tell, what happens is that people don't deny that it happens and pretty much think that it is good. They just don't want it to be called "racism," and so they come up with all sorts of arguments that it is really something else. Like maybe "proactive policing." That sounds good, doesn't it?

But, of course, it is a feedback loop.

It could work quite simply. Let's just assume for a moment that there are no racist cops. That's false, of course, but for the purposes of argument, let's assume that all cops are noble and stalwart and good, and they don't have a racist bone in their bodies. Even under this admittedly unrealistic assumption, the same things would happen.

First, there's the drug trade. That is a huge part of police work. And while it is correct to say that white people use more drugs, not only in absolute numbers but in per capita terms, it's also true that there are a lot of black people involved in the drug trade. Since the very white 1960s freedom and hippiedom didn't win (probably because all those idealistic white people discovered cocaine and tax-free municipal bonds as much as anything else), we have the much-touted War on Drugs which since the 1990s has seemed a lot less of a metaphor what with the hardware coming from the military.

But this is nothing new. European settlers spent a while basically just fishing cod and only having small or short-term settlements, but eventually they moved on land and started growing tobacco. Then there was Johnny Appleseed, and one of the nicest things to do with apples is let them ferment and drink the result. If it got cold, you could also make apple jack, which was very nice. Around the time of the American Revolution, it was common practice at political functions to leave out a barrel of hard cider so that they could help themselves. Moving West and South, the apples weren't as nice, but corn and rye and wheat grew nicely. So you made distilled spirits. (And then people from Kentucky made rafts to float their product down to New Orleans, and sold the product and the wood and bought horses to ride back up to Kentucky, which gave us the Kentucky Derby and the shotgun shack.) Then German and Irish immigrants brought two different styles of beer, and Jewish immigrants brought new kinds of distilled spirits (having drunk schnapps for a long time, and then there were calls for Prohibition, which rather unsurprisingly the darling of the KKK, which had withered after Reconstruction but re-emerged on the event of lynching Leo Frank, a Jew. And Italians were pretty handy with wine, though New York pizza is nearly as addictive. Etc. and so forth and so on.

If anything, what is surprising is how long black people resisted going into the drug trade. Throughout the long time of legal segregation, black people really stuck very closely to non-exploitive means of making a living. They got pretty good at it. There was, for instance, an almost entirely independent black economy, with a network of banks that were by black people for black people. We have just emerged from the annual diabetes-inducing wave of It's a Wonderful Life. Not only is that ironic since Neil Bush, but you can bet that a real George Bailey wasn't lending any money to black people, though some other black people were.

Then the black diaspora after WWII and the GI Bill and all that led to a lot of black people deciding that they didn't want to be down South any more and wanted to go someplace like New York or Chicago, where they were quickly told, "Coloreds need not apply."

And, OK. That's happened to everybody. Irish need not apply. Italians need not apply. Jews need not apply. Even my German immigrant grandfather, when he came over in 1930, knew that Germans were paid considerably less than others. (He still thought it a paradise, because in Germany you couldn't find work. He said, you might have to move 300 miles to find work, but you could find work. Now, I've moved 300 or more miles for work, and recently I've moved three time zones and still couldn't find work. There are a lot of people in that situation. Think about that when you think about the economy now versus 1930.)

But there's still a problem. It's hard to tell if someone is German or Italian or Irish or Jewish at a distance. It's easy to tell if someone is black or white all the way across the parking lot or down the street from a cop car.

And also, we got rid of segregation. (Didn't we?) I'm sure that everyone can agree that legal segregation was bad, but one of the results was that all those black banks and jobs and neighborhoods went to hell in a hat, and everything was swallowed up by the majority, which is white. And so one didn't have the option of being a big frog in a small pond except in entertainment (which doesn't employ very many stars) or the drug trade.

And so a cop who sees a young black man driving a nice car is automatically going to think "drug dealer" and see an opportunity for an arrest or even just some intimidation. And he's right, a lot of the time. Now, the young white man driving a nice car might be a drug dealer, too, and the cop might know that. But the young white man is also a lot more likely to be a spoiled rich kid with a car bought by Daddy, who can afford a big fat hairy lawyer and has political connections to the boss of the cop, and the cop certainly knows this. So, whom do you hassle to make up your quota? The cop might think the world of black people or even be black himself, but this is a no-brainer.

Then, of course, the black kids get their fingerprints and demographics into the system. And if they do something again, the little cop computer on the dash is going to go "ping." And then more is going to happen to the black kid for the same offense that the white kid gets away with, or no offense at all. And then the judge thinks "prior."

Well, do something like that for generation after generation, on the minority you can spot at a distance, and guess what happens.

Of course, as I said, we got rid of segregation. And quite a lot of laws based on race. And, if truth be told, a lot of discriminatory hiring as well. And some people say, "racism is gone! It was a problem in the past, but it's over, and things are better. Why don't these kids just pull them up by their bootstraps? I resent all that racist affirmative action and how blacks can blame anything on being black!"

Well, of course, there's evidence of quite a lot of still extant racism. But it's secondary. What is primary is that all of these white people (and some fortunate rich black people) neglect two things: 1) old money, and 2) grandfather stories.

It's the old money that buys the lawyers. Also, while Americans have this heroic image of the self-made man, there isn't a single success story that doesn't involve severe economic and emotional hardships in the past. People with buffers survive (though far from all of them do), and people without buffers don't. The buffer isn't a strong governmental social safety net, and what little there is, people resent, waving their hands about "welfare queens," which nicely fits into their moral values about rugged individualism. And of course, the number of successes is small compared to the number of failures, and it also happens with white people. But those white people are generally viewed as family moochers or just dismissed as the homeless; nobody makes myths of millions of white people sucking the economy dry and raising your taxes.

Of course, though, they did. Irish, Germans, Jews, etc. all received the same sort of treatment, but again, there's that distance identification problem.

Then there are the grandfather stories. Every culture passes down information. Let's be honest about this. The information passed down over the years by most people to their children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren is likely still to be useful. My grandfather was trained as, I kid you not, a wagon-wheel maker, but the stuff he learned and passed down still works for me as a software developer. (It doesn't help me much as an entrepreneur, but I'm working on that.) What a black slave tells someone in the reconstruction era, what they in turn tell someone in the segregation era, and what they in turn tell someone in the post-segregation era is likely to be totally useless or even wildly counterproductive.

Like, for example, the don't trust white people, you act too white, crab-bucket mentality, which I'm personally familiar with especially amongst the older members of the family of my girlfriend, who is very black. In the segregation era, it was functional. Success was had by staying as far away as possible from white institutions, which kept the black institutions flourishing, so you could still save and borrow money and live. Now it just makes matters worse.

Or the traditional sexism and "big booty ho" attitudes of her younger relatives. Using sexuality to improve one's status is a rational niche move in an economy of poverty, but it keeps the economy of poverty going, and there really are much better even personal choices and the actual possibility of getting away if you can change your individual and cultural outlook.

All of this is maintained, generation and generation, by behaviors and patterns that are in turn reinforced by the very things they affect. It's a positive feedback loop and a very nasty one. And it really does affect black people dramatically more strongly than other groups.
 
Seriously? I don't think you realize how small the black population in the US is, or you wouldn't be asking for stats to back up the notion that more whites are pulled over while driving fancy cars than blacks. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, more whites driving fancy cars than blacks. They get pulled over.

Of course, this could lead to a relatively pointless discussion as to just what, exactly, a "fancy" car is. The point is, mathematics and percentages guarantee that more whites are being swept up in traffic enforcement actions than blacks are, in their relatively tiny pockets of the country. The difference is, they don't cry racism when it happens. For the record, not all blacks do, either. Some of them seem to realize that driving a car and living in a society makes occasional encounters with the police a likely outcome, regardless of one's race.

So that's a 'no' then, is it?
 
Yes, because these groups of people are responsible for far more crime. Why wouldn't they be stopped more frequently? Why wouldn't they be profiled as more likely to be involved in something nefarious?

A New Jersey turnpike study found that blacks were stopped more often because they committed traffic infractions more often.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_2_the_racial_profiling.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/21/nyregion/study-suggests-racial-gap-in-speeding-in-new-jersey.html
 

Not exactly.
But rather than clarifying the issue, the study created its own muddle. Justice Department officials say they have such serious questions about the methods used to gather the data that they have asked New Jersey's attorney general not to release the findings. It is not clear whether they will be made public.

And by the way, this is from 2002, fourteen years ago. George W. Bush's DofJ.
 
Not exactly.


And by the way, this is from 2002, fourteen years ago. George W. Bush's DofJ.

The left had problems with it because it didn't support the far left narrative. As mentioned in the article, other studies that purported to show racial profiling were less rigorous, and yet received less criticism from the left.

The age of study means what exactly? 2001 isn't ancient. Can you cite a newer study with similar (or better) methodology that yielded different results?

http://crab.rutgers.edu/~goertzel/raceandspeedling.htm

"The driver identifications are not reliable! whined the Justice Department. The researchers had established a driver’s race by agreement among two of the three evaluators. So in response to DOJ’s complaint, the researchers reran their analysis, using only photos about which the evaluators had reached unanimous agreement. The speeding ratios came out identically to before.

The data are incomplete! shouted the Justice Department next. About one third of the photos had been unreadable, because of windshield glare that interfered with the camera, or the driver’s position. Aha! said the federal attorneys. Those unused photos would change your results! But that is a strained argument. The only way that the 12,000 or so unreadable photos would change the study’s results would be if windshield glare or a seating position that obstructed the camera disproportionately affected one racial group. Clearly, they do not.

Nevertheless, DOJ tried to block the release of the report until its objections were answered. “Based on the questions we have identified, it may well be that the results reported in the draft report are wrong or unreliable,” portentously wrote Mark Posner, a Justice lawyer held over from the Clinton era."
 
No, I am not denying that racial profiling exists, but I am saying that people frequently believe they are being racially profiled when they aren't, and that if they are going to claim that they are, there should be some sort of evidence.

What would you consider to be evidence of racial profiling?
 
The left had problems with it because it didn't support the far left narrative. As mentioned in the article, other studies that purported to show racial profiling were less rigorous, and yet received less criticism from the left.

The age of study means what exactly? 2001 isn't ancient. Can you cite a newer study with similar (or better) methodology that yielded different results?

http://crab.rutgers.edu/~goertzel/raceandspeedling.htm

"The driver identifications are not reliable! whined the Justice Department. The researchers had established a driver’s race by agreement among two of the three evaluators. So in response to DOJ’s complaint, the researchers reran their analysis, using only photos about which the evaluators had reached unanimous agreement. The speeding ratios came out identically to before.

The data are incomplete! shouted the Justice Department next. About one third of the photos had been unreadable, because of windshield glare that interfered with the camera, or the driver’s position. Aha! said the federal attorneys. Those unused photos would change your results! But that is a strained argument. The only way that the 12,000 or so unreadable photos would change the study’s results would be if windshield glare or a seating position that obstructed the camera disproportionately affected one racial group. Clearly, they do not.

Nevertheless, DOJ tried to block the release of the report until its objections were answered. “Based on the questions we have identified, it may well be that the results reported in the draft report are wrong or unreliable,” portentously wrote Mark Posner, a Justice lawyer held over from the Clinton era."
& yet every time I got pulled over for "suspicious behavior", I never got an answer for what said suspicious behavior was...
 
Can anyone provide evidence and/or an argument that racial profiling is not an appropriate and logical thing for police to do?

Cops tend to pay greater attention to males than females and greater attention to the young than the old.

Biological specifics about citizens when they are things like age, sex, able-bodiedness, whether the person weighs 160lbs or 650lbs, etc. all seem to be acknowledged as perfectly legitimate things for officers to factor into their formula for how much scrutiny to give someone, whether they're seeking a particular suspect or just keeping an eye out in a high crime area.

Keep in mind, those biological specifics are mostly things (other than weight perhaps) which the individuals have no control over. Yet, we don't insist cops stop profiling males as more likely to be burglars and females as more likely to be prostitutes. We don't insist they start considering granny just as likely a prospect for a drug dealer as her grandson.

Why is race a sacred biological distinction people have no control over which must not be factored in?

Please don't say because it cannot have any implications for crime, because it obviously can. Crime rates vary enormously by race, and wouldn't you know it... the race with the most outrageously high crime rate (blacks) are the ones getting profiled the most. It's almost as though there's a reaction by cops to that reality... hmm.

... & yet cops don't just pull over & search 30-something white males who live alone to make sure they aren't serial killers...
 
... & yet cops don't just pull over & search 30-something white males who live alone to make sure they aren't serial killers...

The whole notion that serial killers are all white males is a myth. There are a huge number of black serial killers, but the media doesn't like to draw attention to that.

Based on the information I've seen before on these topics, blacks offend at disproportionate levels for all crimes, including white collar crimes and serial killing.

Conversely, whites under-offend as compared to what you'd expect their share of crimes to be based on their share of the population, for all crime categories.

If high crime Mestizos weren't rolled into the white numbers (they have their own victim category but not their own offender category, for some mind boggling reason) then the already low white crime rates would be breathtakingly lower still.

If you ask the average person about it, they think whites are disproportionately represented among the ranks of serial killers and pedophiles and other sorts of sex offenders. The reality is that whites are under-represented in these crimes as compared to their share of the US population.
 
The whole notion that serial killers are all white males is a myth. There are a huge number of black serial killers, but the media doesn't like to draw attention to that.

Based on the information I've seen before on these topics, blacks offend at disproportionate levels for all crimes, including white collar crimes and serial killing.

Conversely, whites under-offend as compared to what you'd expect their share of crimes to be based on their share of the population, for all crime categories.

If high crime Mestizos weren't rolled into the white numbers (they have their own victim category but not their own offender category, for some mind boggling reason) then the already low white crime rates would be breathtakingly lower still.

If you ask the average person about it, they think whites are disproportionately represented among the ranks of serial killers and pedophiles and other sorts of sex offenders. The reality is that whites are under-represented in these crimes as compared to their share of the US population.

Which misses the point if an innocent black person is far more likely to be stopped by police than white.



And this:


I wonder how different the crime numbers would be if whites were stopped at the same proportion as blacks, and further if whites were arrested at the same rate as blacks when contraband was found per jimbob's claim in post #40.



Some criminality will be caught by sampling. If you are only looking for black criminals you won't find any white ones.



Disclosure: I am a middle class white male
 
The whole notion that serial killers are all white males is a myth. There are a huge number of black serial killers, but the media doesn't like to draw attention to that.

Based on the information I've seen before on these topics, blacks offend at disproportionate levels for all crimes, including white collar crimes and serial killing.

Conversely, whites under-offend as compared to what you'd expect their share of crimes to be based on their share of the population, for all crime categories.

If high crime Mestizos weren't rolled into the white numbers (they have their own victim category but not their own offender category, for some mind boggling reason) then the already low white crime rates would be breathtakingly lower still.

If you ask the average person about it, they think whites are disproportionately represented among the ranks of serial killers and pedophiles and other sorts of sex offenders. The reality is that whites are under-represented in these crimes as compared to their share of the US population.
Well lets assume your unsourced claim is true...
There's this...▼

Which misses the point if an innocent black person is far more likely to be stopped by police than white.




And this:






Some criminality will be caught by sampling. If you are only looking for black criminals you won't find any white ones.



Disclosure: I am a middle class white male

Also, how many black people are commiting said crimes when compared to the black population?
 
Can anyone provide evidence and/or an argument that racial profiling is not an appropriate and logical thing for police to do?

You mean aside from the previously posted link that showed that despite the profiling of black males as criminals, stops of cars driven by whites are more likely to uncover criminal activity? or the other one that showed that 90% of stops of black drivers do not find any evidence of criminal activity? Or the one for the study that shows that the disproportionate rates of detection of criminal activity by black suspects are the result of the disproportionate focus on black suspects. Or the one that showed black individuals harassed and arrested for crimes, despite not even remotely matching suspect descriptions?

Seriously, did you bother to look at any of the links posted; because they already debunk your unsupported claims and assertions.

Do you have any sources demonstrating the effectiveness of profiling?
 
Yes, because these groups of people are responsible for far more crime. Why wouldn't they be stopped more frequently? Why wouldn't they be profiled as more likely to be involved in something nefarious?

Nope, this was also debunked in the studies that I linked to earlier, and which you and ST have consistently refused to read.

To summarize, there is some difference in actual rates of criminal activity; but the differences are nowhere near justifying the degree to which certain minorities are profiled and harassed. The higher rates of arrest are not justification for profiling, they're an artifact of it; as is the lower detection and arrest rates for white criminals; and the higher conviction rate for black vs. white criminals given identical crimes. It's racism and classism, not any inherent differences between whites and minorities, that is the reason for profiling.
 
Nope, this was also debunked in the studies that I linked to earlier, and which you and ST have consistently refused to read.

To summarize, there is some difference in actual rates of criminal activity; but the differences are nowhere near justifying the degree to which certain minorities are profiled and harassed. The higher rates of arrest are not justification for profiling, they're an artifact of it; as is the lower detection and arrest rates for white criminals; and the higher conviction rate for black vs. white criminals given identical crimes. It's racism and classism, not any inherent differences between whites and minorities, that is the reason for profiling.

I'd like to see a sourced claim for ETA: any difference that accounts for demographics and socieoeconomic status
 
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Nope, this was also debunked in the studies that I linked to earlier, and which you and ST have consistently refused to read.

To summarize, there is some difference in actual rates of criminal activity; but the differences are nowhere near justifying the degree to which certain minorities are profiled and harassed. The higher rates of arrest are not justification for profiling, they're an artifact of it; as is the lower detection and arrest rates for white criminals; and the higher conviction rate for black vs. white criminals given identical crimes. It's racism and classism, not any inherent differences between whites and minorities, that is the reason for profiling.

So profiling just makes it look like blacks commit murder at 7 times the rate of whites?
 
Nevertheless, DOJ tried to block the release of the report until its objections were answered. “Based on the questions we have identified, it may well be that the results reported in the draft report are wrong or unreliable,” portentously wrote Mark Posner, a Justice lawyer held over from the Clinton era."

Gross distortion of the facts.

The study did not find that blacks committed more traffic infractions, they study found that black were more frequently cited for traffic infractions. If you actually look at what they were cited for, the majority were for very minor infractions. Nearly any car on the road could be cited for some sort of minor infraction if the officer wants to look hard enough. Hell, on my morning commute, the vast majority of the traffic is traveling at least 6mph over the speed limit at any point.

What later reviews found more likely was that blacks were stopped more frequently, and issued minor-infraction citations as a justification for the stop.
 
So profiling just makes it look like blacks commit murder at 7 times the rate of whites?

Citation for your numbers please. Is this actual murder rates, arrest rates, or conviction rates?

If it's arrest or conviction rates, it's already well-demonstrated that blacks are more likely to be arrested for a crime, and once arrested, are more likely to be convicted. The same is true for hispanics, though to a lesser extent.

In any case, crime rates have nothing to do with ethnicity, and everything to do with culture and class. Focusing on race is counterproductive.
 
Citation for your numbers please. Is this actual murder rates, arrest rates, or conviction rates?

If it's arrest or conviction rates, it's already well-demonstrated that blacks are more likely to be arrested for a crime, and once arrested, are more likely to be convicted. The same is true for hispanics, though to a lesser extent.
In any case, crime rates have nothing to do with ethnicity, and everything to do with culture and class. Focusing on race is counterproductive.

Worth restating

BTW: Skeptic Tank et al. I'm glad that I don't have the fear and contempt that your posts seem to imply that you have for non-whites. It would make my life rather stressful.

I'm reminded of my daughter's rant about people who start a conversation with, "I'm not racist, but..."
 
Citation for your numbers please. Is this actual murder rates, arrest rates, or conviction rates?

If it's arrest or conviction rates, it's already well-demonstrated that blacks are more likely to be arrested for a crime, and once arrested, are more likely to be convicted. The same is true for hispanics, though to a lesser extent.

In any case, crime rates have nothing to do with ethnicity, and everything to do with culture and class. Focusing on race is counterproductive.
Wikipedia seems to lend some credibility to the claim:
According to the US Department of Justice, blacks accounted for 52.5% of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for blacks was almost 8 times higher than whites (per 100,000), and the victim rate 6 times higher (per 100,000). Most murders were intraracial, with 84% of white homicide victims murdered by whites, and 93% of black victims murdered by blacks.[32][33][34]
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

I haven't checked the references and I have no particular knowledge of the issue. Given that the murders are mostly intra-race and blacks are 6 times more likely to be murdered, it strikes me that it's not obviously an issue of reporting, or biased courts.
 

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