Merged Senate Report on CIA Torture Program

anglolawyer said:
:boggled: Straw man? You just succinctly argued that it doesn't work.
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I argued that it isn't efficient, not that you can't get correct information out of someone. The problem is that you get a lot of bad information, as well, with very little opportunity to sort the good from the bad quickly. Apologists usually point to the speed of torture as the justification for its use. Without that, there is no need for it, but I'm not saying it can't work.
 
Upchurch said:
I argued that it isn't efficient, not that you can't get correct information out of someone. The problem is that you get a lot of bad information, as well, with very little opportunity to sort the good from the bad quickly. Apologists usually point to the speed of torture as the justification for its use. Without that, there is no need for it, but I'm not saying it can't work.
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Do you think it has a role as a threat or punishment? For example, the way solitary confinement is used with prisoners who misbehave.
 
logger said:
And yet it will continue, hopefully more in secret. Repubs, dems and whoever else gets elected will not get in the way of allowing the military to protect this country no matter how much you libs cry about it.

For that I am grateful to them, I'm proud of them and I'm proud of this country. They've done a magnificent job in stopping almost all the threats we have faced.
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You've asserted that torture works and has kept us safe. Therefore you provide the evidence, studies, and real world cases where torture has directly stopped a threat to the USA. Go ahead, I'll wait. And I don't want ass-pulled hypotheticals or scare-mongering imaginary scenarios that were dreamed up on the spot or taken from movies or TV shows. I want real irrefutable evidence that torture has worked the way you claim, where there was no other possible alternative.

Unless however you're crediting torture with stopping every single threat this country has ever faced, which judging by the wording of your post, could very easily be inferred. In which case, you're arguing from another planet, and it's not even worth having this discussion with you.
 
marplots said:
Do you think it has a role as a threat or punishment? For example, the way solitary confinement is used with prisoners who misbehave.
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No. It's still torture. It's still illegal and unethical.

So far, we've only talked about using torture in emergencies. Are we now talking about justifying torture as SOP?
 
Upchurch said:
No. It's still torture. It's still illegal and unethical.

So far, we've only talked about using torture in emergencies. Are we now talking about justifying torture as SOP?
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"How to handle an emergency" is part of an SOP, so the distinction isn't important. But, what I was asking was whether or not torture can have a use beyond the tightly circumscribed one of specific information gathering. I'm not making a moral justification, just feeling around the edges of "works."
 
marplots said:
"How to handle an emergency" is part of an SOP, so the distinction isn't important. But, what I was asking was whether or not torture can have a use beyond the tightly circumscribed one of specific information gathering. I'm not making a moral justification, just feeling around the edges of "works."
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Yes, I'm sure torture works as a punishment, but that isn't really on topic.
 
Upchurch said:
No. It's still torture. It's still illegal and unethical.

So far, we've only talked about using torture in emergencies. Are we now talking about justifying torture as SOP?
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As soon as you do that everything will be an emergency.
 
And witch trials show how much you can trust the information obtained
 
tsig said:
As soon as you do that everything will be an emergency.
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Well, I didn't say I was for it.

And it is hard to understand what an emergency punishment might be.

eta: and for the record, I don't think torture should have a role as a threat or punishment. Just because something might work doesn't mean we should use it.
 
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marplots said:
"How to handle an emergency" is part of an SOP, so the distinction isn't important. But, what I was asking was whether or not torture can have a use beyond the tightly circumscribed one of specific information gathering. I'm not making a moral justification, just feeling around the edges of "works."
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It gratifies the individuals who like to inflict pain on helpless individuals and satisfies the voyeuristic wishes of those who like to watch such things plus it makes American feel better knowing that someone is inflicting gratuitous injuries in their behalf.
 
tsig said:
It gratifies the individuals who like to inflict pain on helpless individuals and satisfies the voyeuristic wishes of those who like to watch such things plus it makes American feel better knowing that someone is inflicting gratuitous injuries in their behalf.
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What? Couldn't put sex play in there somewhere? I might have gone with: "tool to aid genocide and promote Ebola transmission."

On the other hand, we could just call it "kinetic art" and fund it.
 
logger said:
And yet it will continue, hopefully more in secret. Repubs, dems and whoever else gets elected will not get in the way of allowing the military to protect this country no matter how much you libs cry about it.

For that I am grateful to them, I'm proud of them and I'm proud of this country. They've done a magnificent job in stopping almost all the threats we have faced.
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I think the military does all. However, torture has never helped to complete any mission.
 
Upchurch said:
No, Obama put an end to the use of torture by the US and good for him for doing so.
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BS, it just went more secret. But of course you believe him. lol
However, the topic of the thread is the CIA's use of torture. Are you under the impression that it's use was necessary to protect our country at any time?
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Neither one of us will ever know that. Supposedly they did get information from the ones they waterboarded.
 
Frozenwolf150 said:
You've asserted that torture works and has kept us safe. Therefore you provide the evidence, studies, and real world cases where torture has directly stopped a threat to the USA. Go ahead, I'll wait. And I don't want ass-pulled hypotheticals or scare-mongering imaginary scenarios that were dreamed up on the spot or taken from movies or TV shows. I want real irrefutable evidence that torture has worked the way you claim, where there was no other possible alternative.
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I have no idea whether it works or not, I'm leaving it up to my government to decide the rare cases they need to do it, which is exactly what they are doing, hopefully it can be kept secret.

Unless however you're crediting torture with stopping every single threat this country has ever faced, which judging by the wording of your post, could very easily be inferred. In which case, you're arguing from another planet, and it's not even worth having this discussion with you.[/QUOTE]

I've said the choice is the militaries, so far it seems as though it is used rarely. You and I will never know, that's how it should be.

I'm also fine with not having a discussion with you.
 
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